Tire casings and poor line choice

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metadave
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The last few years I've been killing tires left right and center, front and back. I'm not a huge guy, 180lbs and yea my line choice could be better, but I can't seem to not pinch flat tire casings all day every day, even in seemingly innocent moments where I'm at a total loss as to what happened. It's gotten to the point where I did a through and though on a rock at the bead and at the tread with a double down aggressor and a tannis insert at 26psi. I'll be moving to cushcore this year to help since the tannis didn't quite cut it, but at this point if I'm not cutting side walls, is there a point to running more than exo+ in the rear? I'm too old to fix my line choice and of I can lighten the wheels a bit of be happy.
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kcy4130
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3/4/2022 10:16am
What rims? A lot of rims coming out have a nice and blunt edge to reduce this. And don't be afraid of higher psi or bigger tires.
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matmattmatthew
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3/4/2022 12:31pm
I've been riding Zipp 3zero Moto wheels for 2 years and have had 0 flats with EXO+ casing and no tire inserts.
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tullie
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3/4/2022 1:16pm
I had a friend with E13 wheel set get flats every other ride
Buttons
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3/4/2022 1:32pm
I've been riding Zipp 3zero Moto wheels for 2 years and have had 0 flats with EXO+ casing and no tire inserts.
Amen! Same here. Although I did just switch to double down assegais just because I think they feel a bit better than the exo+. From my own experience/reasoning, I think the stiffer carbon rims are what get most people. I am of course speaking anecdotally, as I have never done any testing to prove my theory. By far the most common pinch flats I see are on Bontrager line carbon wheels. Mostly the 2020 and earlier. Having tried those wheels, they were pretty stiff to me, and I could definitely see how that may lead to more pinches.

I would also recommend going to a real tire insert like cushcore. I ran the tannus inserts for a while but after taking them out I didn't notice any appreciable difference.

I've done some experimentation with tires in the past year and I have found the maxxgrip tires feel really good. back to back with the maxxterra tires, the softer rubber feels way more stable. Even to the point that I could run my tires 3 or 4 psi higher without losing any traction. With that said there are definitely some downsides to using softer tires.

1
3/4/2022 2:10pm
The one thing about inserts is they don’t make the casings tougher. A thinner, Exo casing with Tannus/CushCore will still be a thinner, Exo casing. In my experience. With inserts I can run lower pressure but I still use the same casings as without inserts.
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boozed
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3/4/2022 2:11pm
Buttons wrote:
Amen! Same here. Although I did just switch to double down assegais just because I think they feel a bit better than the exo+. From my...
Amen! Same here. Although I did just switch to double down assegais just because I think they feel a bit better than the exo+. From my own experience/reasoning, I think the stiffer carbon rims are what get most people. I am of course speaking anecdotally, as I have never done any testing to prove my theory. By far the most common pinch flats I see are on Bontrager line carbon wheels. Mostly the 2020 and earlier. Having tried those wheels, they were pretty stiff to me, and I could definitely see how that may lead to more pinches.

I would also recommend going to a real tire insert like cushcore. I ran the tannus inserts for a while but after taking them out I didn't notice any appreciable difference.

I've done some experimentation with tires in the past year and I have found the maxxgrip tires feel really good. back to back with the maxxterra tires, the softer rubber feels way more stable. Even to the point that I could run my tires 3 or 4 psi higher without losing any traction. With that said there are definitely some downsides to using softer tires.

In your experience how do the maxxterra and maxxgrip differ in terms of longevity when used in this way?
mtbman99
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3/4/2022 3:36pm
kcy4130 wrote:
What rims? A lot of rims coming out have a nice and blunt edge to reduce this. And don't be afraid of higher psi or bigger...
What rims? A lot of rims coming out have a nice and blunt edge to reduce this. And don't be afraid of higher psi or bigger tires.
When I switched to Stans EX3 I noticed an increase in tire pinch flats because the bead profile is a little sharper and the aluminum a bit stiffer. Need to run DD or equivalent and even a bit more pressure to keep the pinch flats away.
DubC
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3/4/2022 3:43pm
First off, dont garner too much from people saying "I ride tire/wheel/insert X and I do/dont flat every ride". There are simply way too many variables which cannot be understood without a deeper dive into a multitude of factors. Everything from suspension settings to how (in)frequently people check their tire pressure before each ride to regional variations of terrain/rocks to the obvious ones like tire casing choice. That doesn't even touch on different peoples perceptions of how fast or hard they ride. (we've all been on rides with big talkers who are nowhere as fast as they actually believe they are - these also tend to be the people that love to make statements like I mentioned above).

Inserts, particularly ones like Cushcore and tannus that provide some level of sidewall support can be very deceiving about the level of actual protection they provide at lower pressures. Many people gauge "my pressure is too low" by casing roll when cornering. Well, inserts with sidewall support prevent casing roll. They also (obviously) cushion rim impacts so it's much harder to tell when you are experiencing rim impacts which can result in casing pinches. Many people dont realize this until they either pinch, damage/crack a rim or pull out their cushcore and see an ungodly number of pinch marks on the insert.

Long story short, if you are getting frequent pinch flats (either at the bead hook interface or on the casing between knobs) then you are not running enough air for the casing you are using. Moar air or heavier casing.

Also: Digital guage used BEFORE every ride. Ive gotten to a point where I know how much pressure I can run if I want to take hack lines and not flat vs how much I can run if I want to eek out more traction but potentially pay the price if I come up short or pick a bad line.

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metadave
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3/4/2022 3:53pm
I've been running different rims, tires, psi and now tried an insert with pretty consistent damaged casings in multiple Maxxis Exo and double down's in both Maxx terra and grip, two sets of wild enduro rear and one front, two E-13 LG1+'s and pressures up to 26psi with the tannis. This included two double down's in one week last fall.

So I'm for sure doing cush core but would prefer not to do DD or DH casing of I'm floating the weight of the cushcores as well.

pinkrobe
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3/4/2022 5:43pm
What trails do you ride in the Calgary area? Is it ledgy rocks/roots or just loose rock messing up your day? Both?
3/4/2022 5:51pm
To add to what everyone is saying, more pressure is generally the answer. It is for me anyway. I am in Colorado, ride narrower than is fashionable dt ALU rims but I also run 30psi in 60a exo Maxxis tires. Do 3c grip better? Sure! Do these last longer? Definitely. I am no where near as fast or aggressive as I once was. The common denominator for friends that get many flats is they are all trying to run low pressures.

I am an old enough to remember reading interviews with Overend and Tomac talking about how they thought it was silly that their competitors got so many flats in races because they could not figure out how to pump up their tires enough. I know the technology has changed but the point still stands in my mind.
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metadave
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3/4/2022 8:02pm
pinkrobe wrote:
What trails do you ride in the Calgary area? Is it ledgy rocks/roots or just loose rock messing up your day? Both?
I'm usually at Moose Mtn but ride everywhere in the area. Jean Guy and Toothless are frequent tire killers for me, and Pano when I try to put a little extra sauce. Usually just baked dry janky rocks in the summer.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, going to cook the pressure up a bit more and see if it works out with the cushcore and some exo+
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Stewyeww
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3/4/2022 8:33pm
Whats your riding style? Might be worth trying to be a bit lighter on your bike.
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3/4/2022 10:45pm
Is it just some people get more flats?
I run both my ebike and enduro bike with exo+ and cushcore pro in the rear, xc in the front.
I weigh 85kg. Running 23psi in the back and 17-19 in the front. Riding 4-5 times a week. Maybe average 3000m descending and get about 2-3 tyre cuts a year.
And those are normally so bad, that the rim is dented and has a flat spot.
The trails in Nelson NZ are very rocky, loads of sharp edges and roots.
And tbh, most my friends are similar.
Are some riders just heavy and slam their bikes through stuff instead of working the ground?
We all know the one rider who disproportionately smashes gear.
Are you that one?
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Buttons
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3/4/2022 11:07pm
Buttons wrote:
Amen! Same here. Although I did just switch to double down assegais just because I think they feel a bit better than the exo+. From my...
Amen! Same here. Although I did just switch to double down assegais just because I think they feel a bit better than the exo+. From my own experience/reasoning, I think the stiffer carbon rims are what get most people. I am of course speaking anecdotally, as I have never done any testing to prove my theory. By far the most common pinch flats I see are on Bontrager line carbon wheels. Mostly the 2020 and earlier. Having tried those wheels, they were pretty stiff to me, and I could definitely see how that may lead to more pinches.

I would also recommend going to a real tire insert like cushcore. I ran the tannus inserts for a while but after taking them out I didn't notice any appreciable difference.

I've done some experimentation with tires in the past year and I have found the maxxgrip tires feel really good. back to back with the maxxterra tires, the softer rubber feels way more stable. Even to the point that I could run my tires 3 or 4 psi higher without losing any traction. With that said there are definitely some downsides to using softer tires.

boozed wrote:
In your experience how do the maxxterra and maxxgrip differ in terms of longevity when used in this way?
I don't know exact numbers, it depends on how much you ride. When I used the maxxterra I went through about two sets of tires a year. Usually I'd ride a set from March till about July and then swap to a new set. The maxxgrip Don't last quite that long I'd say about 3 sets per year. Nice thing about the maxxgrip is that even when the start to wear down you actually get good grip since the rubber is so soft.

This is all with riding about 3 times a week March through October. Usually I average about 40-50 miles a week.
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bulletbass man
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3/5/2022 3:20am
I get the fear of tire weight. But you either need to be slower on the climbs/flats or ride slower on the downs. Or have the skills/decision making to protect your equipment. There just isn’t getting around it if you aren’t flatting due to a specific piece of bad equipment.

I ride dh tires in my hardtail and dd on my spire. Cushcore xc upfront and pro in rear. I ride 30 plus psi in the rear on the hardtail If I’m going anywhere With a lot of rocks. At my budget with my riding style/skill there is no reason to not have beefy equipment that lasts over lighter equipment which may be a few seconds faster on a dh or be a little easier on a climb.
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3/5/2022 4:05am Edited Date/Time 3/5/2022 4:08am
just piling on, but at 180 lbs 26 psi isn't a lot with those casings, even with an insert in my experience (depending on terrain of course).
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metadave
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3/5/2022 8:03am
Nzdinosaur wrote:
Is it just some people get more flats? I run both my ebike and enduro bike with exo+ and cushcore pro in the rear, xc in...
Is it just some people get more flats?
I run both my ebike and enduro bike with exo+ and cushcore pro in the rear, xc in the front.
I weigh 85kg. Running 23psi in the back and 17-19 in the front. Riding 4-5 times a week. Maybe average 3000m descending and get about 2-3 tyre cuts a year.
And those are normally so bad, that the rim is dented and has a flat spot.
The trails in Nelson NZ are very rocky, loads of sharp edges and roots.
And tbh, most my friends are similar.
Are some riders just heavy and slam their bikes through stuff instead of working the ground?
We all know the one rider who disproportionately smashes gear.
Are you that one?
I don't think I smash more gear more than others, sounds like we have similar experiences, usually 3-5 tires a year and some rim damage due to dropping into rocky sections or trying to steam roll a rocky section at speed.
1
3/5/2022 8:29am
I am 220lbs and ride relatively aggressively (IMO). I went through the same issue as you, could not keep my tires inflated no matter what tire/rim combo I tried.

30psi in the back was the necessary solution for me. Find the pressure where you don’t flat anymore and then you can start slowly reducing it and trying CushCore etc.

Another thing to consider… I found that if I rode flat pedals I tended to be heavier on my back wheel as I am generally a bit slower at lifting my rear wheel compared to when riding cleats. Maybe bad technique or whatever, but it is what it is…

Learning how to weight and unweight the wheels at specific points in the trail also makes a big difference to slamming your back wheel into things
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Edthorne
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3/5/2022 11:23am
Another vote for more pressure/thicker casings. I think this is similar to the weight/price/durability equation. Pick 2. You can run lower pressures, but you'll either need heavier tires/inserts, or sacrifice durability.

I primarily ride lift accessed trails, or pedal up to those same trails if the lifts are closed. The area's I ride at around Quebec tend to be pretty rocky, with a lot of exposed bedrock and square edges. I've been running Michelin DH tires, with CushCore XC on Flow EX3's. I run around 26/30psi F/R depending on the conditions and where I'm riding. I've gotten my mitts on a set of carbon rims for this season (because NQA), so I'll be popping a CushCore Pro in the back and trying to see if I can get down to about 27psi in the rear without trashing the rim.
3/5/2022 11:28am
Nzdinosaur wrote:
Is it just some people get more flats? I run both my ebike and enduro bike with exo+ and cushcore pro in the rear, xc in...
Is it just some people get more flats?
I run both my ebike and enduro bike with exo+ and cushcore pro in the rear, xc in the front.
I weigh 85kg. Running 23psi in the back and 17-19 in the front. Riding 4-5 times a week. Maybe average 3000m descending and get about 2-3 tyre cuts a year.
And those are normally so bad, that the rim is dented and has a flat spot.
The trails in Nelson NZ are very rocky, loads of sharp edges and roots.
And tbh, most my friends are similar.
Are some riders just heavy and slam their bikes through stuff instead of working the ground?
We all know the one rider who disproportionately smashes gear.
Are you that one?
metadave wrote:
I don't think I smash more gear more than others, sounds like we have similar experiences, usually 3-5 tires a year and some rim damage due...
I don't think I smash more gear more than others, sounds like we have similar experiences, usually 3-5 tires a year and some rim damage due to dropping into rocky sections or trying to steam roll a rocky section at speed.
So 3-5 flats in 200 rides is a pretty good average then?
TEAMROBOT
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3/5/2022 12:31pm
I went from getting flats or killing rims once a month to no flats and the same wheels for almost three years. Downhill tires and Cushcore are worth the weight to me. I run a Cushcore XC in my front tire and I run the big guy in the back. Priceless. I got used to the increased weight pretty quickly, and I love being able to run over whatever I like without worrying about flats. I've stopped even bringing air or tire levers on some of my smoother local rides.

I agree with a lot of the commentary about the limitations of the insert/light tire solution- if you ride rocky trails and you're punching holes in your tires, I don't think a tire insert is going to be the solution for you. I think you'll either need to go with DH tires or more tire pressure or both. Cushcore prevents tire roll and protects your rims, but they can't protect your tire casing. EXO and DD tires run a 120tpi casing, which is supple and thin, and that's just never going to protect you from rocks. The double layering of 60tpi casings on a downhill tire is much more likely to survive sharp rocks.
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brash
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3/5/2022 1:50pm
double down and 28psi is the ticket for my fat ass.

I ditched cuschore this year just to see if I could notice the difference, so far my FR560 is straight and dent free.

You don't realize how much a cuschore saves your wheels until you take it off, it looks like a rat has been chewing on it, supposedly every nibble is a rim strike of sorts!
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Varaxis
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3/5/2022 2:36pm Edited Date/Time 3/5/2022 2:47pm
Yep, it's the 120 tpi fabric Maxxis uses in EXO and DD. It's a supple, but not so durable casing. They just announced that EXO+ will use 60 tpi fabric.

I switched to Schwalbe SG tires, since I couldn't sustain the tire replacement costs, and the casing felt like a stiff combat boot compared to a supple Maxxis trail running shoe kind of feel. Thankfully, the tire seems to break in and feel more compliant. I still seem to get hit-or-miss quality from Schwalbe, though, with ripped off side knobs and an occasional tire with "herpes".

Stan's Dart came to market after I had become fed up with other plugs letting my Minion tires down (dynaplug and bacon strip types). I heard good things about them saving tires and rides.

I'm also a Cush Core user, but I use them more for the vibration damping up front, moreso than for tire/rim protection. Calming that chattery vibrations that would make me death grip and drag brakes... this is a huge benefit that has made arm pump a thing of the past for me.

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pinkrobe
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3/5/2022 2:42pm
pinkrobe wrote:
What trails do you ride in the Calgary area? Is it ledgy rocks/roots or just loose rock messing up your day? Both?
metadave wrote:
I'm usually at Moose Mtn but ride everywhere in the area. Jean Guy and Toothless are frequent tire killers for me, and Pano when I try...
I'm usually at Moose Mtn but ride everywhere in the area. Jean Guy and Toothless are frequent tire killers for me, and Pano when I try to put a little extra sauce. Usually just baked dry janky rocks in the summer.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, going to cook the pressure up a bit more and see if it works out with the cushcore and some exo+
Yeah, one or two rocks on Jean Guy... Grinning
I'll add a +1 for a touch more pressure in the back and a lighter insert like the Tannus for a bit of insurance. At my 165 weight, I roll 23-25 psi on those same trails and try to pick smooth[er] lines when possible.
yzedf
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3/5/2022 2:44pm
For a Maxxis tire I will only run dh casing. Double down is just stronger sidewalls and my issue has always been rocks piercing through. Cush Core obviously doesn’t help with that.

Now that I’m running different tires, I’m having almost no flats even though I’m on 2.4 trail casings that are ~300 grams lighter per tire. The real giveaway was only needing 1-2psi more than I was on the Maxxis dh stuff (talking wt 2.5 or 2.4 here).
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metadave
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3/5/2022 11:47pm
TEAMROBOT wrote:
I went from getting flats or killing rims once a month to no flats and the same wheels for almost three years. Downhill tires and Cushcore...
I went from getting flats or killing rims once a month to no flats and the same wheels for almost three years. Downhill tires and Cushcore are worth the weight to me. I run a Cushcore XC in my front tire and I run the big guy in the back. Priceless. I got used to the increased weight pretty quickly, and I love being able to run over whatever I like without worrying about flats. I've stopped even bringing air or tire levers on some of my smoother local rides.

I agree with a lot of the commentary about the limitations of the insert/light tire solution- if you ride rocky trails and you're punching holes in your tires, I don't think a tire insert is going to be the solution for you. I think you'll either need to go with DH tires or more tire pressure or both. Cushcore prevents tire roll and protects your rims, but they can't protect your tire casing. EXO and DD tires run a 120tpi casing, which is supple and thin, and that's just never going to protect you from rocks. The double layering of 60tpi casings on a downhill tire is much more likely to survive sharp rocks.
Just to clarify, are you talking punctures at the tread/sidewall or seperation pinches at the sidewall/bead. Maybe I should have clarified better just in case it's the later, 95% of this issue is pinching the tire sidewalls at the bead/sidewall/rim area. I've had a couple flats bad enough where I've also affected (double flatted) the upper side wall/thread area at the same time as the bead/rim line but the main issue is definitely causing the base of the sidewall to be cut at the rim in all cases listed above.

Also, thanks to everyone to all the responses so far, it's hard to reply to everyone per post, but they've been great.
1
3/6/2022 1:37am
If you’re pinching the sidewalls with the rim, CushCore will definitely help, or alternatively heavier casings and more pressure.

The unfortunate fact is that if you aren’t willing to fix your riding/line choice, the only solutions are heavier more robust wheels, whether it is casing or inserts or both
Matt891
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3/6/2022 7:37pm
Take the weight penalty over the vibe killer of flatting.
Supergrav/DD or DH casing if you need. PRO tip: fresh downhill casing rear tire before any vacation to unseen territory.
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jeff231
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3/7/2022 11:40am
Is there a 27.5", folding bead, DH casing, non-MaxxGrip tire available from Maxxis? I know the 2-ply dual compound DHF is (was?) available in 29" (Maxxis part # TB96800100) but I cannot seem to find anything in 27.5". I love MaxxGrip on the front but it doesn't seem necessary or sustainable for the rear most of the time.

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