MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Uncle Cliffy
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Medford, OR US
11/1/2024 8:04pm
Eae903 wrote:
Yeah, the Sight 170 will be replacing the Range in Norco's line up. Not sure if they are doing a dedicated new frame for it, or...

Yeah, the Sight 170 will be replacing the Range in Norco's line up. Not sure if they are doing a dedicated new frame for it, or if they're just over forking and long stroking the shock on the existing Sight frame. Probably the same frame as the Sight 150.

From my understanding, this is exactly what they are doing. Good friend of mine has already long-shocked his HP Sight and is loving it. He is still running a Lyric at 160mm.

4
Primoz
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11/2/2024 12:42am
Eae903 wrote:
So bikes were too linear and we needed to use air shocks to fix it, but now bikes are more progressive, so we need to increase...

So bikes were too linear and we needed to use air shocks to fix it, but now bikes are more progressive, so we need to increase the air volume in our shocks to make them more linear. Makes sense to me! 

TEAMROBOT wrote:
That's one reason for the various air cans, and in a world where you can get a Starling with 0% progression or a Privateer with 44%...

That's one reason for the various air cans, and in a world where you can get a Starling with 0% progression or a Privateer with 44% progression, big brands like Rockshox and Fox need OEM options to fit a super wide range of suspension parameters. There are other benefits to more air volume though, like more mechanical leverage to overcome seal drag. In the coil vs. air battle, more volume is a pretty powerful tool to help air chase performance. That's what they did with the new Boxxer air spring: bigger volume, smaller piston size, more PSI ===> "coil like feel." The new SDLX can doesn't offer a smaller piston size, but it does offer the same piston size and more air volume, which accomplishes the same goal.

Eae903 wrote:
I totally understand the need, just making fun of trends in the industry haha. It's interesting to me that there hasn't been experimentation from the more...

I totally understand the need, just making fun of trends in the industry haha. It's interesting to me that there hasn't been experimentation from the more performance side of the industry to increase air volume by lengthening the shock body, at least that I am aware of. If my math is correct, that would make the spring rate more linear than increasing it through a higher diameter. Lower friction, less progressive, lower pressures. I know that there are restrictions in length since it has to fit into frame, no getting around that, and most riders wouldn't want a shock that's massively long, but bikes like the Digit Datum, Trek Super Caliber, Spesh Epic WC etc... could use most of the top tube as an air chamber to make it very linear, if that's what they're looking for anyways. 

Making the diameter bigger does nothing for the compression, it's the starting vs. ending volume that is the factor. So compression ratio. 

All else being the same (lengths wise), increasing the diameter will only increase the compression ratio and thus the progressivity.

Adding length is one way to do it, adding volume at the end (a bulgy aircan or shock eyelet) is another that also fits within the constraints of current ETE and stroke lengths. 

Speaking of, has anybody done any calculations (or even though about it, it just occurred to me) how understroked shocks compare at a given travel? So going from a 65 mm to a 57,5 mm stroke shock on a 160 mm frame - frame leverage ratio increases, requiring higher pressures, but removing the stroke spacer volume (RS at least compensates the volume to keep the characteristic of the shock the same with a very large stroke spacer) would decrease the compression ratio and give some more linearity? Would that be useful at all? 

2
Jakub_G
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11/2/2024 2:37am
ebruner wrote:
if @TheSuspensionLabNZ is Dougal, I'm going to eat my helmet.  There is no way the same thoughtful, approachable, nice, knowledgable person that posts here is the...

if @TheSuspensionLabNZ is Dougal, I'm going to eat my helmet.  There is no way the same thoughtful, approachable, nice, knowledgable person that posts here is the same knowledgable troll that posts elsewhere.  

Lol yeah, is this a joke? 😂 

1
Jakub_G
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11/2/2024 6:20am
Primoz wrote:
Making the diameter bigger does nothing for the compression, it's the starting vs. ending volume that is the factor. So compression ratio. All else being the same...

Making the diameter bigger does nothing for the compression, it's the starting vs. ending volume that is the factor. So compression ratio. 

All else being the same (lengths wise), increasing the diameter will only increase the compression ratio and thus the progressivity.

Adding length is one way to do it, adding volume at the end (a bulgy aircan or shock eyelet) is another that also fits within the constraints of current ETE and stroke lengths. 

Speaking of, has anybody done any calculations (or even though about it, it just occurred to me) how understroked shocks compare at a given travel? So going from a 65 mm to a 57,5 mm stroke shock on a 160 mm frame - frame leverage ratio increases, requiring higher pressures, but removing the stroke spacer volume (RS at least compensates the volume to keep the characteristic of the shock the same with a very large stroke spacer) would decrease the compression ratio and give some more linearity? Would that be useful at all? 

To make the air shock as linear as possible is imo a good thing, as it's easy to make it progressive with simple tuning via volume reducers, but very hard or impossible the other way around. One thing that doesn't attract anywhere near as much attention as pos/neg volumes is eq port location, it makes a big difference and is often difference between meh air spring and a good one.

5
11/2/2024 10:36am
Primoz wrote:
Making the diameter bigger does nothing for the compression, it's the starting vs. ending volume that is the factor. So compression ratio. All else being the same...

Making the diameter bigger does nothing for the compression, it's the starting vs. ending volume that is the factor. So compression ratio. 

All else being the same (lengths wise), increasing the diameter will only increase the compression ratio and thus the progressivity.

Adding length is one way to do it, adding volume at the end (a bulgy aircan or shock eyelet) is another that also fits within the constraints of current ETE and stroke lengths. 

Speaking of, has anybody done any calculations (or even though about it, it just occurred to me) how understroked shocks compare at a given travel? So going from a 65 mm to a 57,5 mm stroke shock on a 160 mm frame - frame leverage ratio increases, requiring higher pressures, but removing the stroke spacer volume (RS at least compensates the volume to keep the characteristic of the shock the same with a very large stroke spacer) would decrease the compression ratio and give some more linearity? Would that be useful at all? 

The following example is comparing three different theoretical bikes that have the same travel and progression, but different shock strokes. I made up a function to depict the air spring. It's not perfect, but it's not far off either. More ramp that most air shocks. This is only a portion of the picture. I wouldn't say there's any benefit to designing a bike around a short shock beyond fixing clearance issues if there are any, though. The reality is there are loads of air shocks that are plenty linear out there. 

Leverage curves (made them linear functions for the sake of ease):

Example lev plot

Air spring used in this example when at 180 psi:

Example air shock

Wheel force with sag set to be equal:

Wheel force air
22
Suns_PSD
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Location
Austin, TX US
11/2/2024 4:38pm
Sag is a good starting point but in practise the "progressive" cans will run with more sag or else they build force too fast in the...

Sag is a good starting point but in practise the "progressive" cans will run with more sag or else they build force too fast in the middle of the travel. Likewise coil shocks will have a different sag measurement again. I guess the graph does a good job of amplifying the differences between each option, by fixing that one variable but it might help if they included what pressure produced all of those curves too.

Suns_PSD wrote:
Dougal, I know you are not a believer in sag as a primary set up tool, but I disagree with you. They did it right by normalizing...

Dougal, I know you are not a believer in sag as a primary set up tool, but I disagree with you.

 

They did it right by normalizing around the same base sag number, imo.

 

Good to see you around D.

oh wow, theres probably only 2 people who I would genuinely be offended by getting confused with so I must have phrased that post very poorly...

oh wow, theres probably only 2 people who I would genuinely be offended by getting confused with so I must have phrased that post very poorly sorry....I thought the fact I still acknowledged a good reason why the plot would use sag would be the biggest giveaway?

@ebruner your hat is safe! 

Apologies! Smile

 

1
Primoz
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11/3/2024 6:28am

There was a discussion not too long ago about DW bikes and Dave's approach to bike development and what it looks like. I think @jeff.brines mentioned Tim Krueger on Bikes and Death podcast touching on some more details regarding business in the bike world, but Tim (being a friend of Dave apparently) also mentions this process Dave has (well, they have) regarding bike design.

https://bikesordeath.com/ep-193-tim-krueger-esker-cycles-ceo/

It starts at about 1:59:00 in the audio version (not sure where it is in the video version).

5
NicoZesty96
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11/3/2024 10:26am

it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.

Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new. 

3
Packe777
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11/3/2024 10:36am Edited Date/Time 11/3/2024 2:36pm
Packe777 wrote:
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...

it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.

Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new. 

 Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll wait for the reviews online to decide weather i'll will buy them or Hopetech V4, i can't make up my mind yet.

1
3
NicoZesty96
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portogruaro, VE IT
11/3/2024 4:34pm
Packe777 wrote:
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...

it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.

Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new. 

Packe777 wrote:
 Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll...

 Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll wait for the reviews online to decide weather i'll will buy them or Hopetech V4, i can't make up my mind yet.

Got an easy answer there but the brake thread might be the better place for this 

6
11/3/2024 6:03pm
Packe777 wrote:
 Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll...

 Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll wait for the reviews online to decide weather i'll will buy them or Hopetech V4, i can't make up my mind yet.

I have the LH4s and been running them as a pretty heavy guy (93kg) for the past 4 months (including a trip to morzine). They've been rock solid and one of the easiest I've had to bleed. Pads last a long time and are cheap as well.

2
Primoz
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11/3/2024 8:59pm Edited Date/Time 11/3/2024 9:00pm
Packe777 wrote:
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...

it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.

Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new. 

It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate. 

9
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sethimus
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11/3/2024 10:35pm
Packe777 wrote:
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...

it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.

Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new. 

Primoz wrote:
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...

It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate. 

best would be like intend do it

4
NicoZesty96
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11/3/2024 10:54pm
Packe777 wrote:
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...

it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.

Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new. 

Primoz wrote:
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...

It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate. 

meh, i feel the way Intend did it is the way to do it if you really want them, although it's been shown it's pretty useless. Usually, like on Shimano and here, it causes more problems that it solves. Rattling, noise and stuff.

No hate here, just an observation.

 

2
Primoz
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11/3/2024 11:15pm

But they only cover half the pad and minus the piston at that, plus the refrigerator is more complicated and needs to have a matching interface in the caliper (where is then the seal for the piston?).

The "best" way is dependant on a lot of factors. Manufacturability should be one of them. 

11/3/2024 11:21pm

How can the Sight LT change the Range in Norco’s lineup while being a 160mm bike with the Range being a 170mm one (which can go all the way up to 200+ with the help of WRP)? Something doesn’t compute….

1
bulletbass man
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11/3/2024 11:45pm
How can the Sight LT change the Range in Norco’s lineup while being a 160mm bike with the Range being a 170mm one (which can go...

How can the Sight LT change the Range in Norco’s lineup while being a 160mm bike with the Range being a 170mm one (which can go all the way up to 200+ with the help of WRP)? Something doesn’t compute….

My guess the range is being discontinued and the new dh bike must be coming out soonish.  And short stoking the new dh bike is always a possibility.


Assuming they keep the shore and shore park as more budget friendly options that’s a very full lineup.

6
Packe777
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11/4/2024 12:33am Edited Date/Time 11/4/2024 12:36am
Packe777 wrote:
 Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll...

 Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll wait for the reviews online to decide weather i'll will buy them or Hopetech V4, i can't make up my mind yet.

I have the LH4s and been running them as a pretty heavy guy (93kg) for the past 4 months (including a trip to morzine). They've been...

I have the LH4s and been running them as a pretty heavy guy (93kg) for the past 4 months (including a trip to morzine). They've been rock solid and one of the easiest I've had to bleed. Pads last a long time and are cheap as well.

Thx for the info. I'm exactly your weight 93kg,  but with all the gear and kitted on top around 96-97kg. 

Uncle Cliffy
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Medford, OR US
11/4/2024 6:08am
My guess the range is being discontinued and the new dh bike must be coming out soonish.  And short stoking the new dh bike is always...

My guess the range is being discontinued and the new dh bike must be coming out soonish.  And short stoking the new dh bike is always a possibility.


Assuming they keep the shore and shore park as more budget friendly options that’s a very full lineup.

Range is definitely getting dropped. It’s an incredible bike, but heavy. I’ve been contemplating doing the WRP conversion myself…

3
Jotegr
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11/4/2024 8:51am

I heard Range will come back as an independent platform for MY2026. It'll be like the Sight and Optic but even bigger. 

1
mtbman99
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11/4/2024 9:57am
Packe777 wrote:
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...

it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.

Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new. 

Primoz wrote:
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...

It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate. 

There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated. You could increase the thermal transfer if you used some kind of thermal compound but I’m not sure how that would stand up to water/mud. 

It will do something but just not nearly as good as having the pad bonded to the heatsink.

6
Primoz
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11/4/2024 10:41am

Copper grease should work a treat for this use case. 

2
11/4/2024 11:06am
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...

it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.

Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new. 

Primoz wrote:
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...

It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate. 

mtbman99 wrote:
There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated...

There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated. You could increase the thermal transfer if you used some kind of thermal compound but I’m not sure how that would stand up to water/mud. 

It will do something but just not nearly as good as having the pad bonded to the heatsink.

Yup, any time you have to cross a boundary between 2 different parts the heat transfer will be much slower. Thermal compound would help but ideally the surfaces need to be machined or lapped as flat as possible which just adds another expense. Would be interesting to compare how much these help versus something like a little duct that channeled air through the calliper instead

4
dwhere
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11/4/2024 11:27am
Primoz wrote:
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...

It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate. 

mtbman99 wrote:
There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated...

There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated. You could increase the thermal transfer if you used some kind of thermal compound but I’m not sure how that would stand up to water/mud. 

It will do something but just not nearly as good as having the pad bonded to the heatsink.

Yup, any time you have to cross a boundary between 2 different parts the heat transfer will be much slower. Thermal compound would help but ideally...

Yup, any time you have to cross a boundary between 2 different parts the heat transfer will be much slower. Thermal compound would help but ideally the surfaces need to be machined or lapped as flat as possible which just adds another expense. Would be interesting to compare how much these help versus something like a little duct that channeled air through the calliper instead

Just quickly watching the video and reading the comments:

Could they have been looking to thermally isolate the calipers from the pads? As opposed Shimano looking to directly cool their pads? 

7
veefour
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11/4/2024 11:35am Edited Date/Time 11/4/2024 11:37am
Primoz wrote:
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...

It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate. 

mtbman99 wrote:
There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated...

There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated. You could increase the thermal transfer if you used some kind of thermal compound but I’m not sure how that would stand up to water/mud. 

It will do something but just not nearly as good as having the pad bonded to the heatsink.

Yup, any time you have to cross a boundary between 2 different parts the heat transfer will be much slower. Thermal compound would help but ideally...

Yup, any time you have to cross a boundary between 2 different parts the heat transfer will be much slower. Thermal compound would help but ideally the surfaces need to be machined or lapped as flat as possible which just adds another expense. Would be interesting to compare how much these help versus something like a little duct that channeled air through the calliper instead

There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in brake performance. Perhaps they'd help in places with more elevation and longer runs, but they felt like a waste of time to me.

2
TimBud
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11/4/2024 11:40am
veefour wrote:
There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in...

There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in brake performance. Perhaps they'd help in places with more elevation and longer runs, but they felt like a waste of time to me.

 I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as long as the standard.

Prefomance was the same otherwise but the longevity hurt my wallet less despite the higher initial cost

3
veefour
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11/4/2024 11:46am
veefour wrote:
There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in...

There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in brake performance. Perhaps they'd help in places with more elevation and longer runs, but they felt like a waste of time to me.

TimBud wrote:
 I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as...

 I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as long as the standard.

Prefomance was the same otherwise but the longevity hurt my wallet less despite the higher initial cost

Aren't the Shimano versions one piece though? Probably makes quite a difference.

2
Eae903
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11/4/2024 11:56am
veefour wrote:
There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in...

There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in brake performance. Perhaps they'd help in places with more elevation and longer runs, but they felt like a waste of time to me.

TimBud wrote:
 I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as...

 I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as long as the standard.

Prefomance was the same otherwise but the longevity hurt my wallet less despite the higher initial cost

veefour wrote:

Aren't the Shimano versions one piece though? Probably makes quite a difference.

The pad material is attached to the finned portion and that is attached to a separate backing plate on Shimano pads if I remember correctly. 

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11/4/2024 12:55pm

The clear best solution is to just make water-cooled capable calipers. Water gets cycled through by a pump driven by a little baby pulley wheel on the outside edge of the rotors.

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