Could Sam Hill Still Win at Downhill? 51

Mountain biking's favorite flat-pedal destroyer hints at dabbling in downhill again.

sspomer
10/4/2018 7:32am
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Was it just assumed that once Sam Hill went to racing enduro full time that he'd hang up his downhill bike for good? We definitely made that assumption. There was sadness to think that the quiet, powerful Aussie wouldn't be dangling his foot out through nasty downhill turns on a bike with a double crown fork and head angle in the low 60's. Then in 2017, he dropped in to the World Cup DH at Fort William with a strategy of qualifying for World Champs in Cairns, Australia. His Fort William result was 18th...completely respectable and a career-highlight for many riders, but Sam was 17 seconds off the winning pace. The hopes of a stealthy, secret comeback seemed unlikely to us as fans, but he earned points and was selected for the World Champs team and we salivated at seeing Sam on the big bike again.

- word by gordo, audio interview by Sven Martin, cover photo by @maddogboris

Later that season, Mr. Hill showed up to the controversial Cairns World Champs DH course on his...enduro bike. Sigh. Now, it totally made sense that he'd run the bike he's been using the entire season, especially on at a track that wasn't steep, wasn't too tech and had a ton of pedaling on it, but it's just not a DH race without the aforementioned dual-crowned, slacked-out steed beneath the rider. There was plenty of discussion about advantages or disadvantages of running a "little bike" and the anticipation was high, just as it is any time Sam is at a race.

A year of racing wrapped up depicted on Sam Hill's custom helmet.

Sam dropped in fairly early for his World Champs run and smoked it. He held the hot seat long enough that there was plenty of reason to think he may take this thing or at least win a medal. By the time the fastest of the fast full-time downhillers crossed the line, Sam ended up 6th. Incredible for not racing DH, but the result had that asterisk next to it because of bike choice and debate about how "real" the track was. The crux, however, was that this was all taking place during the 2017 EWS season that Sam ended up winning. Impressive to say the least.

When I made the switch to Enduro I never said I wasn't going to race downhill again. -Sam Hill

Fast forward to five days ago and Sam clinches another Enduro World Series overall victory in Finale Ligure. The Aussie is on fire, racing aggressively but with calculation and experience on his side. During his post-race interview, Sven Martin asks Sam if he plans on racing any more downhill races. Sam says, "when I made the switch to Enduro I never said I wasn't going to race downhill again." Music to our freaking ears! Sam continues to hint at showing up to a World Cup or three and trying for World Champs over the next couple years. Even more music to our ears. Sam Hill at Mont-Sainte-Anne (site of the 2019 World Champs) would be all-time, regardless of result.

Hear it straight from Sam himself

Does Sam have what it takes to challenge for a World Cup win. We honestly don't care about a result as long as he's racing, but we're secretly hoping and believing he can do it. What do you think?

Big bike, little bike, who cares! Sam Hill, flat pedals, roost and a wake of destruction.

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Related:
Sam Hill
UCI Mountain Bike World Cup
Downhill
Enduro
UCI Enduro World Cup (EDR)
51 comments

View replies to: Could Sam Hill Still Win at Downhill?

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Hollywood Gainey
6 years ago
Richie Rude couldn't win EWS for over a year after 2 consecutive championships. Every rider has up and down seasons. Even Gwin. Even Sam.
I believe he may have been bored, but doubt he "could not" win.
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bizutch
6 years ago
FYI...I don't think his result at Ft. Bill had as much to do with rust as it had to do with the style bike he was riding. The Nukeproof DH is a single pivot and the Mega is an FSR. They pedal completely different as systems go and when you're on flats, single pivots are HARDER to stay on. The pedal kickback wants to move you off the pins ever so slightly. Anyone not notice that his results dipped once off the multi-link bikes in DH? It's always been my theory as to why Fearon has finished 2nd so much. The Kona is a single pivot.

Thoughts from Turman, etc?
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grinch
6 years ago
Didn’t he have a crash at ft bill?or made came to a dead stop? I think he did and without it he’d be easily in the top ten
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crooksy
6 years ago
Of course Sam Hill can still win at WC DH, what sort of stupid question is that? Just to prove how stupid of a question it is, he will qualify for the Mount Saint Anne Worlds and spank every other rider like a gimp during the Sydney Mardi Gras whilst he is mounted on a Shawn Palmer replica M1 with cracked head tube, V Brakes and flat tyres.......while riding the bike facing backwards and doing a shoey!
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kuzlich
6 years ago
Modern tracks don't suit Sam, but he have such a big talent and with good motivation he can win.
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bizutch
6 years ago
"modern tracks"? There is only one track that "might" not suit him & could be considered a pedaling track but Gwin won on it without a chain. He can definitely ...and probably will still win another World Cup
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Sonofbovril2
6 years ago
If Greg Minaar can still win a WC DH then so can Sam in my opinion.

Just like I think Greg could potentially win an EWS season if he dedicated himself to the cause. If Sam decides he wants to win a WC DH, I have no doubt that he could, he certainly isn't lacking the fitness or skills!
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Big Bird
6 years ago
Sam Hill Fan Boy here, voting for BMann. Winning needs working for. Sam seems to be able to do work. What's the problem? And what The General said. He's just had extra honing of his skills for the past few years. Why not come back better than ever?
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Broken_spoke.photo
6 years ago
He is Sam mutha F**king Hill, he can race whatever discipline he wants, on any bike, and still beat 90% of the top field. He would defiantly smoke anyone on a single speed fat bike if he wanted to. (No offense to fat bikes, or single speeders)
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LTrumpore
6 years ago
In addition to saying he 'lost fitness' at the DH races and didn't like how little he got to ride, Martin also mentioned that he felt enduro racing made him a better bike rider. I can see how for some the semi-blind, fully-pinned nature of EWS racing might actually translate into a sharpening of handling skills that could be beneficial in DH. Clearly it works for Martin, and I'd love to see both Sam and Richie have a go at some World Cup DH racing again.
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Thustlewhumber
6 years ago
Both Martin and Cecile said they "lost" fitness by doing DH races and it hurt them going back into the EWS. I say let Sam be Sam... he could run tricycles and I would root for him.
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bman33
6 years ago
Different disciplines for sure. However, Loris just won the Trans Cascadia in pro with Luca Shaw in third. They both beat last year's winner, Geoff Kabush who got 5th. He is no endurance slouch. DH isn't enduro, but the top level pros are in great condition.
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jeff.brines
6 years ago
That field was a joke compared to an EWS fwiw. Cool looking race, and some decent competition, but nothing like the top 20 dudes at an EWS race.
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bman33
6 years ago
I wasn't meaning the field was a full EWS race. My point was to highlight the endurance top-level pro DH riders have. Folks seem to think DH is all jumps and tech. The top guys can put down some mileage at a serious pace when needed as well!
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Hollywood Gainey
6 years ago
I think they are referring to UCI World Cup Downhill. A little higher level/larger field than the event he won. That said I believe he could win a UCI downhill still
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HeatproofGenie
6 years ago
I'd say Maes proved he can do it. Hill and Maes and Rude for that matter have all shown they can throw down similar fully pinned times on some gnar EWS stages and be close to each other. Properly motivated and correctly trained he could be competitive.
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ninjichor
6 years ago
I wonder how he'd do on the next size up Mega (assuming he rides a M instead of L).
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bman33
6 years ago
Why? He seems to be doing just fine on the medium. My bet is he has tried most of his options.
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ninjichor
6 years ago
He seems to imply that he has to get comfortable on the bike in order to hold things together. He probably thinks back to his riding when he was on DH, but likes the challenge of EWS. Figure if Nukeproof does what other brands are doing, pretty much making L into M, steepening and shortening the seat tube to adjust the ETT...
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kiwizak
6 years ago
Again, why though? Everyone seems to think that Pros NEED to have the longest slackest bike possible. Surely it makes more sense for someone like Sam (who clearly has no problem going faster then most of his competitors) to prioritize fit and comfort.
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ninjichor
6 years ago
My last reply should've answered why, but since you believe it's simple thinking, I'm going to have to elaborate.

The gist of it: I'm wondering if accepting a compromise in seated position comfort, for improved out-of-the-saddle comfort, would improve his results. Upsize to get more front center, at cost of longer ST and ETT.

I believe out-of-the-saddle geo optimization has been largely neglected. I suspect that people sit their asses in the saddle more than they should, because their bike has poor handling quirks out-of-the-saddle.

Take a common CS length, 430 or 435. See these entry level hardtails like a Diamondback Hook. With an 1113 wheelbase in med, its weight is too far forward which comes with a high risk of OTB (asked this guy if he's quitting MTB cause of his shitty experience on it). Beginners learn on these and hang their ass behind the saddle to compensate, and apparently people are fine with it, since it's expected.

A solution is to extend the front axle out more, so the weight isn't so far forward any more. You can get this in any number of ways, from moving the BB back (shorter horizontal chainstay), slacker HA, longer fork, more fork rake/offset, pushing the head tube forward (increased reach). How much? It's a moving target, since fork compression reduces front center, but I personally feel comfortable/central with 1200mm WB with 430mm CS. Any longer in WB with this specific CS length and I need to be more active and aggressive/forward. Any shorter in WB and I need to be pushing my hips further back to carve. I'll accept a 1225 WB with a 435mm CS, or a 1325 WB with a 455 CS (L Pole Machine).

Take a look at the upcoming Pole Taival and also Norco Range 29 and you'll see geo in which they match the CS to WB for different sizes. Other brands don't do this, so riders often customize their bike if they get a size that doesn't happen to be optimized. Look at how tall the test riders are and you'll get an idea what bike size matches up with their design philosophies...

Imagine how dialed a bike would be if you combine this philosophy with the forward geo philosophy. Essentially, match the rider CoG for both sitting and standing. If you get out of the saddle and find that your hips are far forward of the saddle, imagine if the seat tube was steepened enough to be under your hips (and head tube pushed forward to compensate for fit). Your carving position could be the same as your pedaling position, saving time from switching between the two.

Call me officer of the "what size bike are you talking about" police, whenever someone speaks of a bike's handling, as the CS-WB proportions matters for anyone seeking to get stoked, rather than getting bummed that the hype wasn't "real".
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kiwizak
6 years ago
First of all thanks for the detailed reply.
Second, I'm well aware of how geometry works, I'm also a believer in longer chainstay length combined with longer wheelbase for a more central body position.

The point I'm trying to make is that;
A ) Fit and comfort are very important, if you're not comfortable on the bike you're not going to ride it to its potential.
B ) Say, Hypothetically, someone could ride pretty much everywhere faster then their competitors, except in slow/tight corners, wouldn't it be beneficial to sacrifice some wheelbase to make for a more nimble bike.
C ) I'm pretty sure we can all say that a world class athlete has done their due diligence and explored all the options available to them. To think otherwise would be very naive.
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ninjichor
6 years ago
A ) He said in his interview, that he tries to be comfortable on the bike. He didn't say he was.

B ) As long as it's a change that's overall positive, rather than having serious drawbacks that are worse than the benefits, sure.

C ) He's a champion because he is good at adapting. He adapts to the gear, the schedule, the venues, the competition, etc. He needs lots of support, which he puts trust in

Your argument is flawed in the sense that you believe the winner should keep doing what they're doing, as it's working, without taking into consideration that the competition is improving. I believe they should all always be improving/innovating, at a competitive rate. I'm not the type who thinks Sam can win on just any bike, including a bike he's raced in the past. The courses and competition have changed. It's a part of adaptation.

I agree that a pro would try to find anything to improve, but they have to prioritize the more meaningful ones. This one is just basically +25mm to front center, which is very minor in the big picture. He can probably just long-fork his bike and/or run it stiffer to get a similar effect. I'm sure he wouldn't refuse a better bike if it was suggested to him, if it didn't come with any downsides that increased the risk of losing.
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luisgutrod
6 years ago
too much elaboration around a Guy that is so loyal to what works for him, and sticks to it...you wont see him in 470mm reach bike & +780mm bars anytime soon...
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Splayleg
6 years ago
You seem to imply that there are no downsides to bigger and bigger bikes. Maybe a smaller bike is easier to move around going fast down trails that aren’t memorized. Oh and what everyone else is doing is not riding flats and winning ews races and overalls so maybe keep that in mind
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ninjichor
6 years ago
You must have not read the entire thing. I'm trying to emphasize that gravity style racing needs out-of-the-saddle comfort, and that this move sacrificed in-saddle comfort.

Since you brought that up, I'll add my opinion that I consider small bikes to be more for getting wheels off the ground and spinning, on purpose for style, and long better for speed. I don't believe the trade offs to a long bike's cornering come anywhere close to the long bike's benefit of giving confidence to ride faster.
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CuddlyToast
6 years ago
My Heart says yes, but if there was money on the line, I'd place my money elsewhere.
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bman33
6 years ago
Agree. He could def win again. However, he would need to focus in for a bit to make it happen. The top ten in today's Pro DH are all pinned and on point. Several young guys coming up that will make it a challenge
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Dave_Camp
6 years ago
What about Martin Maes? Sam is beating him on the little bikes and Martin is obviously fast enough on a DH bike to win...
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bman33
6 years ago
Not discounting Maes at all. However, Maes is 21, body and mind can 'switch gears' a bit easier so to speak at that age.
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bman33
6 years ago
Not sure why I'm getting down voted. I am saying he can win. He would just need to focus on it prior to doing it. Sam Hill fanboys are brutal
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Oz_Taylor
6 years ago
I know what you are saying and I kind of agree. But being at the top of WC downhill isn't shit or bust. The top guys are there EVERY time. What Sam has done in EWS is insane, even his competitors don't understand how he does it. You just can't write Sam off, he is one talented dude.

Edited to add, I agree with bman33. Age isn't on his side for a comeback.
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kolsen
6 years ago
Minnaar is older than Mr Hill and still keeps up with the best of them, when not injured