Making the diameter bigger does nothing for the compression, it's the starting vs. ending volume that is the factor. So compression ratio. All else being the same...
Making the diameter bigger does nothing for the compression, it's the starting vs. ending volume that is the factor. So compression ratio.
All else being the same (lengths wise), increasing the diameter will only increase the compression ratio and thus the progressivity.
Adding length is one way to do it, adding volume at the end (a bulgy aircan or shock eyelet) is another that also fits within the constraints of current ETE and stroke lengths.
Speaking of, has anybody done any calculations (or even though about it, it just occurred to me) how understroked shocks compare at a given travel? So going from a 65 mm to a 57,5 mm stroke shock on a 160 mm frame - frame leverage ratio increases, requiring higher pressures, but removing the stroke spacer volume (RS at least compensates the volume to keep the characteristic of the shock the same with a very large stroke spacer) would decrease the compression ratio and give some more linearity? Would that be useful at all?
The following example is comparing three different theoretical bikes that have the same travel and progression, but different shock strokes. I made up a function to depict the air spring. It's not perfect, but it's not far off either. More ramp that most air shocks. This is only a portion of the picture. I wouldn't say there's any benefit to designing a bike around a short shock beyond fixing clearance issues if there are any, though. The reality is there are loads of air shocks that are plenty linear out there.
Leverage curves (made them linear functions for the sake of ease):
Sag is a good starting point but in practise the "progressive" cans will run with more sag or else they build force too fast in the...
Sag is a good starting point but in practise the "progressive" cans will run with more sag or else they build force too fast in the middle of the travel. Likewise coil shocks will have a different sag measurement again. I guess the graph does a good job of amplifying the differences between each option, by fixing that one variable but it might help if they included what pressure produced all of those curves too.
oh wow, theres probably only 2 people who I would genuinely be offended by getting confused with so I must have phrased that post very poorly...
oh wow, theres probably only 2 people who I would genuinely be offended by getting confused with so I must have phrased that post very poorly sorry....I thought the fact I still acknowledged a good reason why the plot would use sag would be the biggest giveaway?
There was a discussion not too long ago about DW bikes and Dave's approach to bike development and what it looks like. I think @jeff.brines mentioned Tim Krueger on Bikes and Death podcast touching on some more details regarding business in the bike world, but Tim (being a friend of Dave apparently) also mentions this process Dave has (well, they have) regarding bike design.
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.
Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new.
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.
Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new.
Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll wait for the reviews online to decide weather i'll will buy them or Hopetech V4, i can't make up my mind yet.
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.
Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new.
Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll...
Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll wait for the reviews online to decide weather i'll will buy them or Hopetech V4, i can't make up my mind yet.
Got an easy answer there but the brake thread might be the better place for this
Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll...
Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll wait for the reviews online to decide weather i'll will buy them or Hopetech V4, i can't make up my mind yet.
I have the LH4s and been running them as a pretty heavy guy (93kg) for the past 4 months (including a trip to morzine). They've been rock solid and one of the easiest I've had to bleed. Pads last a long time and are cheap as well.
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.
Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new.
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate.
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.
Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new.
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate.
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.
Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new.
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate.
meh, i feel the way Intend did it is the way to do it if you really want them, although it's been shown it's pretty useless. Usually, like on Shimano and here, it causes more problems that it solves. Rattling, noise and stuff.
But they only cover half the pad and minus the piston at that, plus the refrigerator is more complicated and needs to have a matching interface in the caliper (where is then the seal for the piston?).
The "best" way is dependant on a lot of factors. Manufacturability should be one of them.
How can the Sight LT change the Range in Norco’s lineup while being a 160mm bike with the Range being a 170mm one (which can go all the way up to 200+ with the help of WRP)? Something doesn’t compute….
How can the Sight LT change the Range in Norco’s lineup while being a 160mm bike with the Range being a 170mm one (which can go...
How can the Sight LT change the Range in Norco’s lineup while being a 160mm bike with the Range being a 170mm one (which can go all the way up to 200+ with the help of WRP)? Something doesn’t compute….
My guess the range is being discontinued and the new dh bike must be coming out soonish. And short stoking the new dh bike is always a possibility.
Assuming they keep the shore and shore park as more budget friendly options that’s a very full lineup.
Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll...
Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll wait for the reviews online to decide weather i'll will buy them or Hopetech V4, i can't make up my mind yet.
I have the LH4s and been running them as a pretty heavy guy (93kg) for the past 4 months (including a trip to morzine). They've been...
I have the LH4s and been running them as a pretty heavy guy (93kg) for the past 4 months (including a trip to morzine). They've been rock solid and one of the easiest I've had to bleed. Pads last a long time and are cheap as well.
Thx for the info. I'm exactly your weight 93kg, but with all the gear and kitted on top around 96-97kg.
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.
Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new.
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate.
There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated. You could increase the thermal transfer if you used some kind of thermal compound but I’m not sure how that would stand up to water/mud.
It will do something but just not nearly as good as having the pad bonded to the heatsink.
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are...
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.
Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new.
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate.
There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated...
There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated. You could increase the thermal transfer if you used some kind of thermal compound but I’m not sure how that would stand up to water/mud.
It will do something but just not nearly as good as having the pad bonded to the heatsink.
Yup, any time you have to cross a boundary between 2 different parts the heat transfer will be much slower. Thermal compound would help but ideally the surfaces need to be machined or lapped as flat as possible which just adds another expense. Would be interesting to compare how much these help versus something like a little duct that channeled air through the calliper instead
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate.
There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated...
There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated. You could increase the thermal transfer if you used some kind of thermal compound but I’m not sure how that would stand up to water/mud.
It will do something but just not nearly as good as having the pad bonded to the heatsink.
Yup, any time you have to cross a boundary between 2 different parts the heat transfer will be much slower. Thermal compound would help but ideally...
Yup, any time you have to cross a boundary between 2 different parts the heat transfer will be much slower. Thermal compound would help but ideally the surfaces need to be machined or lapped as flat as possible which just adds another expense. Would be interesting to compare how much these help versus something like a little duct that channeled air through the calliper instead
Just quickly watching the video and reading the comments:
Could they have been looking to thermally isolate the calipers from the pads? As opposed Shimano looking to directly cool their pads?
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of...
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate.
There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated...
There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated. You could increase the thermal transfer if you used some kind of thermal compound but I’m not sure how that would stand up to water/mud.
It will do something but just not nearly as good as having the pad bonded to the heatsink.
Yup, any time you have to cross a boundary between 2 different parts the heat transfer will be much slower. Thermal compound would help but ideally...
Yup, any time you have to cross a boundary between 2 different parts the heat transfer will be much slower. Thermal compound would help but ideally the surfaces need to be machined or lapped as flat as possible which just adds another expense. Would be interesting to compare how much these help versus something like a little duct that channeled air through the calliper instead
There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in brake performance. Perhaps they'd help in places with more elevation and longer runs, but they felt like a waste of time to me.
There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in...
There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in brake performance. Perhaps they'd help in places with more elevation and longer runs, but they felt like a waste of time to me.
I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as long as the standard.
Prefomance was the same otherwise but the longevity hurt my wallet less despite the higher initial cost
There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in...
There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in brake performance. Perhaps they'd help in places with more elevation and longer runs, but they felt like a waste of time to me.
I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as...
I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as long as the standard.
Prefomance was the same otherwise but the longevity hurt my wallet less despite the higher initial cost
Aren't the Shimano versions one piece though? Probably makes quite a difference.
There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in...
There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in brake performance. Perhaps they'd help in places with more elevation and longer runs, but they felt like a waste of time to me.
I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as...
I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as long as the standard.
Prefomance was the same otherwise but the longevity hurt my wallet less despite the higher initial cost
The clear best solution is to just make water-cooled capable calipers. Water gets cycled through by a pump driven by a little baby pulley wheel on the outside edge of the rotors.
I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as...
I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as long as the standard.
Prefomance was the same otherwise but the longevity hurt my wallet less despite the higher initial cost
The pad material is attached to the finned portion and that is attached to a separate backing plate on Shimano pads if I remember correctly.
Correct - on Sintered pads it's [braking material][finned alloy plate][steel back plate], while resin is just [braking material][finned alloy back plate].
While it's anecdotal, I am very pleased with the Shimano finned pads. I don't know what the difference is in a compound between D02S, H03C and N04C. However, going from D02S to H03C has made a very noticeable difference in my brake pads' lifespan. I did make that change at a time I also singnificantly stepped up my riding, so pad wear may reflect that as well.
I had a rattling pad issue once, solved it with spreading the spring a bit more. I'll probably pay more attention to it now that my bike is quieter overall.
I do like the Lewis' approach. Got a pair of the Uberbike pads on my commuter. The downside there is you need their own pads with thinner back plate, and as others have mentioned, the heat transfer will certainly suffer. However it'll still carry some heat away, looks neat and I'm all for keeping brakes consistent. As long as it's quiet, I'm into it.
It's an interesting argument that one would like to see their brake pistons. I try to optimize bikes for on trail performance, and while ease of maintenance sure is a factor, how often do people inspect their pistons? If one side advances more than other is easily visible with fins, and only once in 12 years I've had my 4 piston brakes advance unevenly on one side, where seeing pistons would have been beneficial for diagnosis.
The clear best solution is to just make water-cooled capable calipers. Water gets cycled through by a pump driven by a little baby pulley wheel on...
The clear best solution is to just make water-cooled capable calipers. Water gets cycled through by a pump driven by a little baby pulley wheel on the outside edge of the rotors.
The following example is comparing three different theoretical bikes that have the same travel and progression, but different shock strokes. I made up a function to depict the air spring. It's not perfect, but it's not far off either. More ramp that most air shocks. This is only a portion of the picture. I wouldn't say there's any benefit to designing a bike around a short shock beyond fixing clearance issues if there are any, though. The reality is there are loads of air shocks that are plenty linear out there.
Leverage curves (made them linear functions for the sake of ease):
Air spring used in this example when at 180 psi:
Wheel force with sag set to be equal:
Apologies!
More new Lewis brakes previews:
https://www.instagram.com/bee_kay77/reel/DB2UnFGC4fF/?hl=en
https://www.instagram.com/bee_kay77/reel/DBU5-i3i-yB/?hl=en
There was a discussion not too long ago about DW bikes and Dave's approach to bike development and what it looks like. I think @jeff.brines mentioned Tim Krueger on Bikes and Death podcast touching on some more details regarding business in the bike world, but Tim (being a friend of Dave apparently) also mentions this process Dave has (well, they have) regarding bike design.
https://bikesordeath.com/ep-193-tim-krueger-esker-cycles-ceo/
It starts at about 1:59:00 in the audio version (not sure where it is in the video version).
it feels to me that the first product they come up with with more of their input is already "meh", the fact that the fins are on a separate plate and you need that thickness behind the pads, regardless of how beneficial, seems way too much of a PITA.
Bee Kay already modified a piece of alluminium to replace those fins and claims something needs to be there as otherwise pistons will start to become too advanced with all new.
Yeah, to me they seam to copy Shimano with the fins now. Slight alterations of the original Trickstuff's Maxim'a and the fins now added too. I'll wait for the reviews online to decide weather i'll will buy them or Hopetech V4, i can't make up my mind yet.
Got an easy answer there but the brake thread might be the better place for this
I have the LH4s and been running them as a pretty heavy guy (93kg) for the past 4 months (including a trip to morzine). They've been rock solid and one of the easiest I've had to bleed. Pads last a long time and are cheap as well.
It makes very little sense to have the fins integrated in the brake pads and throw them away every time you wear out a set of pads. If you still want fins, doing it the way they did is the best. Having them non removable could be a pain and I see the point BK was making regarding seeing the pistons, having them removable would make it possible to run the brakes without them and causing problems (pistons advancing). But otherwise your comments are very much what is to be expected - haters gonna hate.
best would be like intend do it
meh, i feel the way Intend did it is the way to do it if you really want them, although it's been shown it's pretty useless. Usually, like on Shimano and here, it causes more problems that it solves. Rattling, noise and stuff.
No hate here, just an observation.
But they only cover half the pad and minus the piston at that, plus the refrigerator is more complicated and needs to have a matching interface in the caliper (where is then the seal for the piston?).
The "best" way is dependant on a lot of factors. Manufacturability should be one of them.
How can the Sight LT change the Range in Norco’s lineup while being a 160mm bike with the Range being a 170mm one (which can go all the way up to 200+ with the help of WRP)? Something doesn’t compute….
My guess the range is being discontinued and the new dh bike must be coming out soonish. And short stoking the new dh bike is always a possibility.
Assuming they keep the shore and shore park as more budget friendly options that’s a very full lineup.
Thx for the info. I'm exactly your weight 93kg, but with all the gear and kitted on top around 96-97kg.
Range is definitely getting dropped. It’s an incredible bike, but heavy. I’ve been contemplating doing the WRP conversion myself…
I heard Range will come back as an independent platform for MY2026. It'll be like the Sight and Optic but even bigger.
There is going to be very inefficient heat transfer between the pads and the heat sink compared to the shimano version with the them being integrated. You could increase the thermal transfer if you used some kind of thermal compound but I’m not sure how that would stand up to water/mud.
It will do something but just not nearly as good as having the pad bonded to the heatsink.
Copper grease should work a treat for this use case.
Yup, any time you have to cross a boundary between 2 different parts the heat transfer will be much slower. Thermal compound would help but ideally the surfaces need to be machined or lapped as flat as possible which just adds another expense. Would be interesting to compare how much these help versus something like a little duct that channeled air through the calliper instead
Just quickly watching the video and reading the comments:
Could they have been looking to thermally isolate the calipers from the pads? As opposed Shimano looking to directly cool their pads?
There's a company here in the UK called Uberbike who offer separate fins with their pads. I tried them and frankly couldn't notice any difference in brake performance. Perhaps they'd help in places with more elevation and longer runs, but they felt like a waste of time to me.
I can’t speak for the Uberbike fins but when I was guiding in the Alps my finned Shimano pads (sintered) would last at least twice as long as the standard.
Prefomance was the same otherwise but the longevity hurt my wallet less despite the higher initial cost
Aren't the Shimano versions one piece though? Probably makes quite a difference.
The pad material is attached to the finned portion and that is attached to a separate backing plate on Shimano pads if I remember correctly.
The clear best solution is to just make water-cooled capable calipers. Water gets cycled through by a pump driven by a little baby pulley wheel on the outside edge of the rotors.
Correct - on Sintered pads it's [braking material][finned alloy plate][steel back plate], while resin is just [braking material][finned alloy back plate].
While it's anecdotal, I am very pleased with the Shimano finned pads. I don't know what the difference is in a compound between D02S, H03C and N04C. However, going from D02S to H03C has made a very noticeable difference in my brake pads' lifespan. I did make that change at a time I also singnificantly stepped up my riding, so pad wear may reflect that as well.
I had a rattling pad issue once, solved it with spreading the spring a bit more. I'll probably pay more attention to it now that my bike is quieter overall.
I do like the Lewis' approach. Got a pair of the Uberbike pads on my commuter. The downside there is you need their own pads with thinner back plate, and as others have mentioned, the heat transfer will certainly suffer. However it'll still carry some heat away, looks neat and I'm all for keeping brakes consistent. As long as it's quiet, I'm into it.
It's an interesting argument that one would like to see their brake pistons. I try to optimize bikes for on trail performance, and while ease of maintenance sure is a factor, how often do people inspect their pistons? If one side advances more than other is easily visible with fins, and only once in 12 years I've had my 4 piston brakes advance unevenly on one side, where seeing pistons would have been beneficial for diagnosis.
https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/nerding-out-brakes-shall-we-not-ano…
Are brakes the crabs of tech rumours?
Just connect them to a piss tube in your pants.
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