General cockpit/contact point discussion

I have the luxury of being able to try out, back to back, 55 mm riser bars in either an 8/5° sweep or in a 12/8° sweep with no difference in 'setback' (distance from the clamping axis to the axis going through the grips at 680 mm width, so roughly the middle of the hands when holding onto the bars).

While I do still have to do some more back to back runs, one thing that became painfully apparent is how important bar roll is. Setting up the 12/8° variant by eye caused me to roll it fairly backwards in effect giving me almost no upsweep. I could not turn the bike without dropping off the back. I could not hang over the bars and turn them and lean the bike. Rolling them forwards into the 'zero' position (where, bike sitting on the ground, the upsweep is the actual upsweep and backsweep is the actual backsweep) was a gamechanger. I can actually lean the bike and rail corners.

Granted, with a 55 mm riser bar the effects of fore-aft movement when rolling the bars is a bit more exaggerated, I still feel having the bars more backwards was not the factor that rove me backwards. If anything, having the bars closer to me would have to make me move over the bars even more. It was genuinely the feeling of not being able to turn the bike. Going straight wasn't an issue.

After experiencing this, it got me thinking. It's the upsweep, or lack of it, that can drive the praying mantis position and rolling the bars backwards will make this even worse.

Anybody had any similar experience?

Also, captain obvious, but my god how much the ~2 cm change in bar height (lowering my Zeb from 180 to 160 mm) can be felt...

This has been my exact experience with bar roll, and it's why I roll my bars forward. Helps move me forward on the bike into a more active riding position, pumping and turning, instead of moving back and down and feeling like a passenger. Ditto for your observations about steering the bike vs. being steered. It was a big ah-ha for me. YMMV. Some very fast top 20 WC racers roll their bars back, so likely it's not universal.

If anyone know where to find a 8 back- and 8 upsweep bar with 50 rise or more, hit me up!

Liked the Newmen bar with 8/8 sweep, but it was only avialable with 40 rise.

https://www.moonmenbikes.com/moonriser-ti-handlebar

Only thing i can think for that specific is a bit expensive but full custom TI so you can probably get the 8 back and upsweep and whatever rise you want up to about 100mm 

I’m trying to get the hang of some body position issues I’m having with my new bike, a size small Fezzari Delano Peak, and hoped for some advice.
 

My previous bike was a Kona Dawgma I bought in 2009. I was in India for the last three years and didn’t mountain bike at all in that time, and got home to find that my bike was lost sometime between going into and coming out of storage. I got the Fezzari as a replacement, and it’s been an adventure trying to figure out what I just need to get used to, and what I should update to get things fitting right. The main differences I feel are that my hands feel more over the front of the wheel than I’m used to, but not in a stretched out way. I actually feel like my seat and hands are much closer together than before. The end result is that even on slight downhills, I feel like I’m about to pitch over the front. This isn’t helped by the fact that my first ride resulted in a pretty bad over the bar crash on a somewhat steep, chunky switchback that I have ridden successfully dozens of times previously. Being out of practice surely didn’t help, and the effect of the crash itself on my confidence may be affecting the discomfort I feel on the bike now.

I did not have a dropper post before, so I’m trying to get used to using it, but I feel like I was able to keep under control before by lowering my chest without needing to get my hips back or low. Now I can get the seat out of the way but getting low without moving my hips back just puts me way over the front, and getting my hips back to get low decreases my control of the bike.

The things I’ve tried are moving the seat back on the post, which hasn’t been super noticeable, and adjusting spacers on the steer tube, which I think has worked best with the stem as high as it can go.

I’d like to try some more geometry adjustments, but with a very limited budget I want to make sure I go in the right direction to start. So the main things I’m looking at are bars and stem. I found some cheapo bars on Amazon that have a 55mm rise and 11 deg. backsweep. I do feel currently that the majority of the pressure on my hands is between the my thumb and forefinger so I’m hoping the increased backsweep could aid that, although I’m aware it might be more the result of elbow positioning on my part. For the increased rise, I’m hoping it would help position my entire body a little more upright while still being spaced out. My current bars are a 35 mm clamp, so I’d have to get a new stem to fit the new bars. I’m thinking a longer stem to counteract the increased backsweep, and the compacted position I already feel, but that could obviously put me even more over the front which is the main concern to begin with.

The people sharing their experiences here seem to have a lot figured out, and I would love to get some advice based on this expertise. Please let me know if I’m on the right track, or if you think there’s anything else I should be looking into. Thanks.

When you say a longer stem to combat the compact feeling, it will not put you further over the front wheel if your hands will be in the same position. It will put you in the same position.

I get that, although I haven’t calculated how available stem lengths would affect the fore-aft position of the grips relative to the rest of the bike, and I need to do that. The things I don’t understand are the impacts on what I’m experiencing if that was to change in combination with bar height (and I’m not even sure bar height is the right thing to change). If I do have a net forward location shift, would the increased bar height put me in more of an upright position that would make me feel more stable? Would a net increase in distance from my CG due to higher bars result in a more comfortable position even if the grips did also end up further aft? There are so many variables and I’m not even sure I’m considering the right combination of all of them. With a bike that has a slacker heat tube angle and shorter stem, it doesn’t really make sense that I would feel more over the front, but I do, so I question my understanding of what leads to that.

A 55 mm 12/8 deg handlebar with a 70 mm stem was about the same fore aft as a 40 mm stem and a 35 mm rise 8/5 deg handlebar for me.

Quite a few people I have talked with prefer a higher position, a sentiment quite often shared in this thread too. In my case it allows me to corner better as I'm not hanging over the bars but I'm in a more active position with the hands doing less of the supporting and mostly just steering.

Do you ski maybe?

How tall are you? Kinda sounds the frame is on the small side when you say the bars are closer to the seat. 

Thanks, that is a much bigger effect of the back sweep than I would have expected, so it may be worth trying to match the fore-aft position of the grips and being prepared to spend more money on a different stem if it feels weird. Given my budget I am ok with incremental gains if it reduces the risk of a swing and miss on getting something that feels terrible.

I think what you’re saying about giving your hands more of a steering role vs supporting makes sense and is what I would look for. I do ski. Is there a corollary?

5’5”, which puts me at the top of the small range and bottom of the medium. Small was the size available, but it was also recommended based on imputing my measurements into the fezzari site. It does feel pretty long overall, specifically in tight switchbacks, so I don’t know how much of an effect the extra reach from a medium would have in reality, I do wonder if there would be some downsides of it being a bit unwieldy. Regardless, changing sizes im isn’t something I can look into to fix my current issues. I’ll definitely try different sizes if I ever get a brand new bike.

Try to get a similar bike in a larger size to try out if at all possible. It's amazing how much you can learn from riding different bikes and different sizes if you have the option, but I do agree it's not always easy...

As for skiing, my technique was horrible. I was bent over in the hips, I was basically an A-frame ladder (inner leg supporting me instead of being leaned over on the edge), etc. and when a few ski instructor friends took me through the wringer a year and a half ago, I finally put myself in a proper position. Which is more upright than I was before. I was finally able to put both skis on the edges because my upper body was centered over the feet. I had proper balance and everything was improved by it. Because of this revelation, I started thinking about my position on the bike where I had the same problem - long-ish reach and a fairly low cockpit. I was bent over, supported by my arms and I basically couldn't turn.

I bought some 55 mm rise bars and everything improved on the bike too. Going back to a lower cockpit now would mean being unable to ride. A higher cockpit was a gamechanger for me and a few people around me tried it in the aftermath and mostly agree. There are also comments about how similar skiing and biking, when it comes to turning, really is. The movements have A LOT of similarities in how you position your upper body, how you cant your knees inwards and take the skis or the bike with you, how the upper body needs to be upright to put pressure on the edges or side knobs, etc. etc.

Mentioning leaning the bike over, this is also where wider bars work against you and I've lately been riding 760 mm bars and there are no drawbacks compared to 780 mm or 800 mm bars based on my experience this far.

One additional note, I've mentioned that I have wrist pain. I've been riding a 12/8° bar and had a lot of problems. Even days after riding I felt my wrist in day to day activities, most notably sitting on the ground, but catching myself on my hand, bending the wrist to 90°. There was a jolt of pain in the wrist when I did that.

I swapped my bars back to 8/5° on Saturday and immediately had less wrist pain on the past three days. A friend of mine with wrist problems much prefers a 12/8° bar, so this just goes to show how important testing things out by every person is as we are all different... Sadly. It would be great to have general guidelines that would hold true for everybody, but looks like that is not a solution.