[Edit: I posted this comment and then found a brief article on another site, so I sort of understand a bit better what the discontent about the points situation is about.]
I'm glad it wasn't just me who thought that. I still don't understand the Adam Brayton situation or the whole deal with points affecting who can race. It seems like there are tons of riders who have few points (or none) who get to enter the qualifying, so I'm having a hard time getting why some riders are being excluded. I don't know if anyone has written an article or posted a video on Youtube explaining the way that stuff works. (I can't access stuff on Instagram, so that's not a resource for me.)
Bernard's remarks about the prize money are probably just the tip of that iceberg. I have no doubt that's been a behind-the-scenes issue for lots of riders. Add to that the switch to having semis this year, the arrangement of the pits at Andorra, etc., and it's not surprising to see dissent.
[Edit: I posted this comment and then found a brief article on another site, so I sort of understand a bit better what the discontent about...
[Edit: I posted this comment and then found a brief article on another site, so I sort of understand a bit better what the discontent about the points situation is about.]
I'm glad it wasn't just me who thought that. I still don't understand the Adam Brayton situation or the whole deal with points affecting who can race. It seems like there are tons of riders who have few points (or none) who get to enter the qualifying, so I'm having a hard time getting why some riders are being excluded. I don't know if anyone has written an article or posted a video on Youtube explaining the way that stuff works. (I can't access stuff on Instagram, so that's not a resource for me.)
Bernard's remarks about the prize money are probably just the tip of that iceberg. I have no doubt that's been a behind-the-scenes issue for lots of riders. Add to that the switch to having semis this year, the arrangement of the pits at Andorra, etc., and it's not surprising to see dissent.
You can enter without race points by paying the trade team fee. Which is now nearly 5x more expensive since eso took charge with no improved payout to the riders r any tangible improvements in onsite medical and safety improvements.
[Edit: I posted this comment and then found a brief article on another site, so I sort of understand a bit better what the discontent about...
[Edit: I posted this comment and then found a brief article on another site, so I sort of understand a bit better what the discontent about the points situation is about.]
I'm glad it wasn't just me who thought that. I still don't understand the Adam Brayton situation or the whole deal with points affecting who can race. It seems like there are tons of riders who have few points (or none) who get to enter the qualifying, so I'm having a hard time getting why some riders are being excluded. I don't know if anyone has written an article or posted a video on Youtube explaining the way that stuff works. (I can't access stuff on Instagram, so that's not a resource for me.)
Bernard's remarks about the prize money are probably just the tip of that iceberg. I have no doubt that's been a behind-the-scenes issue for lots of riders. Add to that the switch to having semis this year, the arrangement of the pits at Andorra, etc., and it's not surprising to see dissent.
You can enter without race points by paying the trade team fee. Which is now nearly 5x more expensive since eso took charge with no improved...
You can enter without race points by paying the trade team fee. Which is now nearly 5x more expensive since eso took charge with no improved payout to the riders r any tangible improvements in onsite medical and safety improvements.
Donāt federations also get so many spots to enter people and have to race in their jersey?
Also another telling thing was in Fox video about how they shouldnāt be just doing repairs on 100 forks but instead working with certain people. (Or something along that lines), but sounded like they would be happy to have the entries cut down.
[Edit: I posted this comment and then found a brief article on another site, so I sort of understand a bit better what the discontent about...
[Edit: I posted this comment and then found a brief article on another site, so I sort of understand a bit better what the discontent about the points situation is about.]
I'm glad it wasn't just me who thought that. I still don't understand the Adam Brayton situation or the whole deal with points affecting who can race. It seems like there are tons of riders who have few points (or none) who get to enter the qualifying, so I'm having a hard time getting why some riders are being excluded. I don't know if anyone has written an article or posted a video on Youtube explaining the way that stuff works. (I can't access stuff on Instagram, so that's not a resource for me.)
Bernard's remarks about the prize money are probably just the tip of that iceberg. I have no doubt that's been a behind-the-scenes issue for lots of riders. Add to that the switch to having semis this year, the arrangement of the pits at Andorra, etc., and it's not surprising to see dissent.
it's confusing to me as well as how Adam was actually race so far and not now. But keep in mind there is series points but also global ranking points. The 40 points needed can be earned at any UCI sanctioned race that offers them. Portugal Cup, Crankworx Canada Cup series etc. Strangely enough it looks the British National series that Adam was racing doesn't offer UCI points so while he was placing well there he wasn't earning the needed UCI points.
Also another telling thing was in Fox video about how they shouldnāt be just doing repairs on 100 forks but instead working with certain people. (Or...
Also another telling thing was in Fox video about how they shouldnāt be just doing repairs on 100 forks but instead working with certain people. (Or something along that lines), but sounded like they would be happy to have the entries cut down.
Huh, that's a different view than the way I heard it; I took it to mean that riders had started treating the Fox team as basic suspension service instead of using them as a suspension-tuning resource. Jordi basically saying "do the basics on your own and let us focus on getting your set-up dialed". (That's all *my* interpretation fwiw...)
[Edit: I posted this comment and then found a brief article on another site, so I sort of understand a bit better what the discontent about...
[Edit: I posted this comment and then found a brief article on another site, so I sort of understand a bit better what the discontent about the points situation is about.]
I'm glad it wasn't just me who thought that. I still don't understand the Adam Brayton situation or the whole deal with points affecting who can race. It seems like there are tons of riders who have few points (or none) who get to enter the qualifying, so I'm having a hard time getting why some riders are being excluded. I don't know if anyone has written an article or posted a video on Youtube explaining the way that stuff works. (I can't access stuff on Instagram, so that's not a resource for me.)
Bernard's remarks about the prize money are probably just the tip of that iceberg. I have no doubt that's been a behind-the-scenes issue for lots of riders. Add to that the switch to having semis this year, the arrangement of the pits at Andorra, etc., and it's not surprising to see dissent.
You can enter without race points by paying the trade team fee. Which is now nearly 5x more expensive since eso took charge with no improved...
You can enter without race points by paying the trade team fee. Which is now nearly 5x more expensive since eso took charge with no improved payout to the riders r any tangible improvements in onsite medical and safety improvements.
Donāt federations also get so many spots to enter people and have to race in their jersey?
Apparently national federations can add 3 Elite riders per category. There are 27 countries represented on this week's qualifying start list, compared to 22 countries last year at Vallnord. This might at least partially explain why the number of starters this week is greater than the number who were on last year's start list at Vallnord.
You can enter without race points by paying the trade team fee. Which is now nearly 5x more expensive since eso took charge with no improved...
You can enter without race points by paying the trade team fee. Which is now nearly 5x more expensive since eso took charge with no improved payout to the riders r any tangible improvements in onsite medical and safety improvements.
Apparently national federations can add 3 Elite riders per category. There are 27 countries represented on this week's qualifying start list, compared to 22 countries last...
Apparently national federations can add 3 Elite riders per category. There are 27 countries represented on this week's qualifying start list, compared to 22 countries last year at Vallnord. This might at least partially explain why the number of starters this week is greater than the number who were on last year's start list at Vallnord.
yeah that goes for every race and usually depends on when World Champs happen. with a smaller break after the Worlds as opposed to before I think the Canadian team chose to have the junior riders there doing this block of races to get expierence.
The UCI maintains a database with all riders UCI Ranking points on their website which is updated weekly. Itās easy to drill down to individual riders and see their total points and race results. If a riderās name does not show up on the list/search itās because they have not scored any points.
For a privateer, like Adam Brayton, he requires 40 points to gain entry to a World Cup race. He was personally caught out because he mistakenly believed he would be awarded UCI ranking points for the Semifinals he raced in the last two rounds. The UCI ranking points only last 1 year. He found himself in this position mid-season as points from previous year are removed coupled with not being awarded any for his semifinal placing.
Itās difficult to gets point from UK racing. There are only two events and one being Fort William which is usually attended by all pro teams. Also, a privateer budget may have been based around World Cups only. They may not be in the position of pro teams who can for all pre season training and travelling to other countries for UCI sanctioned races.
Without points a privateer rider can only enter a World cup by being awarded a jersey by their National Federation. Each national federation can award up to 3 jerseys based on merit.
If your name is down on a pro team, you donāt require any points to race in the World Cup. So, if you have the cash to set up a pro team you can effectively race a WORLD cup having no prior racing experience or results! Cash is King!
You can even see the favoritism with pro team on how they allocate training practice. For example Gee hasn't raced a bike in 2 years and there he is racing World Cups in Group A practice. There's plenty more if you look at the rankings !
Iām sure there are other examples of privateers getting a raw deal on this new format. Qualifying at that level, living out of the back of a van against the odds is a hell of an achievement and they are being pushed out.
The organization doesnāt want privateers. Just a small niche of riders and no outside competition. Name any other sports that have so many convoluted rules and these stupid protected statuses. Itās no wonder people outside the sport donāt take it seriously !
Watch out for Hauser, 42nd at the first split (must have been a crash/error) and finished 5th. On a side note, is there a way to see actual split times instead of combined split times somewhere?
The UCI maintains a database with all riders UCI Ranking points on their website which is updated weekly. Itās easy to drill down to individual riders and...
The UCI maintains a database with all riders UCI Ranking points on their website which is updated weekly. Itās easy to drill down to individual riders and see their total points and race results. If a riderās name does not show up on the list/search itās because they have not scored any points.
For a privateer, like Adam Brayton, he requires 40 points to gain entry to a World Cup race. He was personally caught out because he mistakenly believed he would be awarded UCI ranking points for the Semifinals he raced in the last two rounds. The UCI ranking points only last 1 year. He found himself in this position mid-season as points from previous year are removed coupled with not being awarded any for his semifinal placing.
Itās difficult to gets point from UK racing. There are only two events and one being Fort William which is usually attended by all pro teams. Also, a privateer budget may have been based around World Cups only. They may not be in the position of pro teams who can for all pre season training and travelling to other countries for UCI sanctioned races.
Without points a privateer rider can only enter a World cup by being awarded a jersey by their National Federation. Each national federation can award up to 3 jerseys based on merit.
If your name is down on a pro team, you donāt require any points to race in the World Cup. So, if you have the cash to set up a pro team you can effectively race a WORLD cup having no prior racing experience or results! Cash is King!
You can even see the favoritism with pro team on how they allocate training practice. For example Gee hasn't raced a bike in 2 years and there he is racing World Cups in Group A practice. There's plenty more if you look at the rankings !
Iām sure there are other examples of privateers getting a raw deal on this new format. Qualifying at that level, living out of the back of a van against the odds is a hell of an achievement and they are being pushed out.
The organization doesnāt want privateers. Just a small niche of riders and no outside competition. Name any other sports that have so many convoluted rules and these stupid protected statuses. Itās no wonder people outside the sport donāt take it seriously !
solid breakdown of it all. as you said, brayton mistakenly thought his semi-final points would keep him in.
but i still don't understand. has anyone been able to figure out why brayton's semi-final points total after VDS doesn't count toward the 40 required points for entry into 2023 world cups?
according to 2023 individual standings results sheet after VDS, brayton is 55th with 47 points (accumulated via semi-finals results in 2023). based on that standings sheet, these 47 points count toward an actual 2023 ranking. so why do they not count toward entry into 2023 races? if 2022 points expired, shouldn't 2023 these points carry over to 2024, giving him required 40 for next year?
has there been any explanation as to why all points on the individual standings sheet are not the same? aren't points, points? there is no indicator on the individual standings results sheet that the points totaling brayton's 47 are different than the points totaling jackson's 786.
if it's been explained or a rule has been pointed out, sorry if i missed. am i confusing UCI rank vs world cup standings? don't these 2023 points count toward a UCI rank in real-time?
The UCI maintains a database with all riders UCI Ranking points on their website which is updated weekly. Itās easy to drill down to individual riders and...
The UCI maintains a database with all riders UCI Ranking points on their website which is updated weekly. Itās easy to drill down to individual riders and see their total points and race results. If a riderās name does not show up on the list/search itās because they have not scored any points.
For a privateer, like Adam Brayton, he requires 40 points to gain entry to a World Cup race. He was personally caught out because he mistakenly believed he would be awarded UCI ranking points for the Semifinals he raced in the last two rounds. The UCI ranking points only last 1 year. He found himself in this position mid-season as points from previous year are removed coupled with not being awarded any for his semifinal placing.
Itās difficult to gets point from UK racing. There are only two events and one being Fort William which is usually attended by all pro teams. Also, a privateer budget may have been based around World Cups only. They may not be in the position of pro teams who can for all pre season training and travelling to other countries for UCI sanctioned races.
Without points a privateer rider can only enter a World cup by being awarded a jersey by their National Federation. Each national federation can award up to 3 jerseys based on merit.
If your name is down on a pro team, you donāt require any points to race in the World Cup. So, if you have the cash to set up a pro team you can effectively race a WORLD cup having no prior racing experience or results! Cash is King!
You can even see the favoritism with pro team on how they allocate training practice. For example Gee hasn't raced a bike in 2 years and there he is racing World Cups in Group A practice. There's plenty more if you look at the rankings !
Iām sure there are other examples of privateers getting a raw deal on this new format. Qualifying at that level, living out of the back of a van against the odds is a hell of an achievement and they are being pushed out.
The organization doesnāt want privateers. Just a small niche of riders and no outside competition. Name any other sports that have so many convoluted rules and these stupid protected statuses. Itās no wonder people outside the sport donāt take it seriously !
solid breakdown of it all. as you said, brayton mistakenly thought his semi-final points would keep him in.
but i still don't understand. has anyone been...
solid breakdown of it all. as you said, brayton mistakenly thought his semi-final points would keep him in.
but i still don't understand. has anyone been able to figure out why brayton's semi-final points total after VDS doesn't count toward the 40 required points for entry into 2023 world cups?
according to 2023 individual standings results sheet after VDS, brayton is 55th with 47 points (accumulated via semi-finals results in 2023). based on that standings sheet, these 47 points count toward an actual 2023 ranking. so why do they not count toward entry into 2023 races? if 2022 points expired, shouldn't 2023 these points carry over to 2024, giving him required 40 for next year?
has there been any explanation as to why all points on the individual standings sheet are not the same? aren't points, points? there is no indicator on the individual standings results sheet that the points totaling brayton's 47 are different than the points totaling jackson's 786.
if it's been explained or a rule has been pointed out, sorry if i missed. am i confusing UCI rank vs world cup standings? don't these 2023 points count toward a UCI rank in real-time?
Yeah the series points and overall ranking points is what seems to be confusing everyone. You can accumulate your 40 ranking points through a variety uci races that arenāt world cups.
so theoretically, you could win every semi-final race, DNF all finals and have no points for a UCI ranking? do qualifying points count for anything?
Theoretically one could win all semis and dnf all finals but have no uci ranking, and still win the overall (very unlikely I admit). I can't be understanding that correctly! I really hope I misunderstood.
[Edit: I posted this comment and then found a brief article on another site, so I sort of understand a bit better what the discontent about...
[Edit: I posted this comment and then found a brief article on another site, so I sort of understand a bit better what the discontent about the points situation is about.]
I'm glad it wasn't just me who thought that. I still don't understand the Adam Brayton situation or the whole deal with points affecting who can race. It seems like there are tons of riders who have few points (or none) who get to enter the qualifying, so I'm having a hard time getting why some riders are being excluded. I don't know if anyone has written an article or posted a video on Youtube explaining the way that stuff works. (I can't access stuff on Instagram, so that's not a resource for me.)
Bernard's remarks about the prize money are probably just the tip of that iceberg. I have no doubt that's been a behind-the-scenes issue for lots of riders. Add to that the switch to having semis this year, the arrangement of the pits at Andorra, etc., and it's not surprising to see dissent.
it's confusing to me as well as how Adam was actually race so far and not now. But keep in mind there is series points but...
it's confusing to me as well as how Adam was actually race so far and not now. But keep in mind there is series points but also global ranking points. The 40 points needed can be earned at any UCI sanctioned race that offers them. Portugal Cup, Crankworx Canada Cup series etc. Strangely enough it looks the British National series that Adam was racing doesn't offer UCI points so while he was placing well there he wasn't earning the needed UCI points.
Aren't points good for 1 year and then drop off? Maybe he was riding off older expiring points. Didn't that happen to Kade or Kaos a year or two ago?
"The racing is getting stressful man, like with the semis and the finals it's just, I dunno I'm starting to fall out of love with it...
It's (semi-finals) basically a race run and you get 31st and you don't even make finals it's dog shit. It really is, it's dog shit.
I think I dunno, we will see how it goes. Downhill might be dead. Nah I can't say that but I dunno I think it's just going to become very niche. It's going to be 30 guys and yeah like it's not going to be something you do anymore, you just watch it.
When I saw that (the news about Adam Brayton) the other day I was just like I'm over it. Why should someone who has made semis every go not have enough points to race a world cup, it just doesn't make any sense. It doesn't add up at all.
I don't know what is going on, you guys need to sort your shit out. Big time."
2.) A rider's UCI Ranking is based on points acquired at any UCI event (e.g. World Championships), and ONLY qualifying (top 20) and finals (top 30) any of the 8 World Cups in 2023 (minus the final round, which doesn't pay points in qualifying).
3.) UCI DH World Series standings are based ONLY on points acquired in Qualifying, Semi-Finals (top 60), and Finals at any of the 8 World Cups in 2023.
As an example, here is Adam Brayton's standing and points breakdown in each ranking:
And here is Andreas Kolb's standings and points breakdown (note how his second at Worlds earlier this month counts towards his UCI Individual Ranking but not the DH World Series standings):
4.) The '2023 UCI Downhill Overall World Cup Champion' is crowned based on the UCI Downhill World Series standings.
5.) A ride needs 40 UCI points acquired from a UCI event to race a World Cup. However, points acquired from the Semi-Finals at World Cups do not count.
6.) If I didn't already strongly despise the addition of Semi-Finals because it waters down the racing, this has solidified my discontent. I've been saying all year that the only good thing about Semi-Finals was that it awarded UCI points in a similar fashion to riders who finished 30-60 in 2022. But turns out that isn't true, and now I really don't understand why we are doing Semi-Finals.
Hopefully I got this right/helped some. Get ready for a heated debate on the next B Practice Podcast.
so theoretically, you could win every semi-final race, DNF all finals and have no points for a UCI ranking? do qualifying points count for anything?
Statement from UCI on semi points :
There are 2 things to differentiate:
UCI RANKING ā taking into account all the races on the calendar, points scale as per the annex 3 of the UCI rules. In this case, the semi-finals are not awarding points.
UCI MTB WORLD CUP STANDING ā taking into account only the UCI MTB World Cup events, points scale as per article 4.11.020 of the UCI Regulations.
So the semi points are useful for riders going for a World Cup standing position. Unfortunately to enter the World Cup you need to have UCI ranking points.
One other benefit of UCI ranking points is your start position and allocation of training group (A and B ). For some reason they only use the World Cup standings points for the top 60. So an elite who qualified in all three semi's and was 61st overall in World Cup standings but has no UCI ranking points (for example a privateer on a national jersey) would be given a high number board and potentially shoved in Group B practice, which is a major disadvantage at that level.
ESO have a lot to answer for making this so much more complex than it needs to be. Going by comments on social media, if fans of the sport are struggling with this then what chance someone new coming into the sport.
Alright, since nobody asked, here is my best attempt at explaining the crap shoot that is Semi-Finals points.
1.) There are two points standing in discussion: ...
Alright, since nobody asked, here is my best attempt at explaining the crap shoot that is Semi-Finals points.
2.) A rider's UCI Ranking is based on points acquired at any UCI event (e.g. World Championships), and ONLY qualifying (top 20) and finals (top 30) any of the 8 World Cups in 2023 (minus the final round, which doesn't pay points in qualifying).
3.) UCI DH World Series standings are based ONLY on points acquired in Qualifying, Semi-Finals (top 60), and Finals at any of the 8 World Cups in 2023.
As an example, here is Adam Brayton's standing and points breakdown in each ranking:
And here is Andreas Kolb's standings and points breakdown (note how his second at Worlds earlier this month counts towards his UCI Individual Ranking but not the DH World Series standings):
4.) The '2023 UCI Downhill Overall World Cup Champion' is crowned based on the UCI Downhill World Series standings.
5.) A ride needs 40 UCI points acquired from a UCI event to race a World Cup. However, points acquired from the Semi-Finals at World Cups do not count.
6.) If I didn't already strongly despise the addition of Semi-Finals because it waters down the racing, this has solidified my discontent. I've been saying all year that the only good thing about Semi-Finals was that it awarded UCI points in a similar fashion to riders who finished 30-60 in 2022. But turns out that isn't true, and now I really don't understand why we are doing Semi-Finals.
Hopefully I got this right/helped some. Get ready for a heated debate on the next B Practice Podcast.
That's really helpful, thank you!
My understanding is that ESO now decides what the rules are (including points allocation) and the UCI just ratifies the rules so this mess is squarely on them (w/ an assist by UCI)?
So by cutting down the finals all they did was lessen the chance to get UCI points at a worlds cup are force more people to chase points at lower level events that pay very few points?
Alright, since nobody asked, here is my best attempt at explaining the crap shoot that is Semi-Finals points.
1.) There are two points standing in discussion: ...
Alright, since nobody asked, here is my best attempt at explaining the crap shoot that is Semi-Finals points.
2.) A rider's UCI Ranking is based on points acquired at any UCI event (e.g. World Championships), and ONLY qualifying (top 20) and finals (top 30) any of the 8 World Cups in 2023 (minus the final round, which doesn't pay points in qualifying).
3.) UCI DH World Series standings are based ONLY on points acquired in Qualifying, Semi-Finals (top 60), and Finals at any of the 8 World Cups in 2023.
As an example, here is Adam Brayton's standing and points breakdown in each ranking:
And here is Andreas Kolb's standings and points breakdown (note how his second at Worlds earlier this month counts towards his UCI Individual Ranking but not the DH World Series standings):
4.) The '2023 UCI Downhill Overall World Cup Champion' is crowned based on the UCI Downhill World Series standings.
5.) A ride needs 40 UCI points acquired from a UCI event to race a World Cup. However, points acquired from the Semi-Finals at World Cups do not count.
6.) If I didn't already strongly despise the addition of Semi-Finals because it waters down the racing, this has solidified my discontent. I've been saying all year that the only good thing about Semi-Finals was that it awarded UCI points in a similar fashion to riders who finished 30-60 in 2022. But turns out that isn't true, and now I really don't understand why we are doing Semi-Finals.
Hopefully I got this right/helped some. Get ready for a heated debate on the next B Practice Podcast.
It should be noted that final runs award UCI ranking points to 60th (a hold over from years past as per the Annex 3 I noted in a poost further back in this thread) but as there is a maximum possibility of 40 riders allowed into a final (30 non-protected riders plus the 10 finals protected guys assuming they didn't do a good enough run in semis) it's effectively only scoring to 40th which awards 21 UCI ranking points. Taylor Vernon's 31st at Lenzerheide earned him a whopping 30 UCI ranking points.
UCI Ranking is based off a rolling 12 months of earned points so it would be possible to be qualified for Andorra, go 21st in Qualifiers, 1st in Semis, then DNF finals and not be able to race the next round because one of the races that you scored UCI Ranking points is now a year and week in the past taking those points out of your total lessening you to 39 points.
I'd like to think the UCI/ESO simply overlooked changing Annex 3 to reflect the changes in how the sport is being run at world cups to make earned WC standing points the same as ranking points as things have always been, but something tells me that was intentional to ween the field down indirectly before next year's likely direct cutting of the field.
[Edit: I posted this comment and then found a brief article on another site, so I sort of understand a bit better what the discontent about...
[Edit: I posted this comment and then found a brief article on another site, so I sort of understand a bit better what the discontent about the points situation is about.]
I'm glad it wasn't just me who thought that. I still don't understand the Adam Brayton situation or the whole deal with points affecting who can race. It seems like there are tons of riders who have few points (or none) who get to enter the qualifying, so I'm having a hard time getting why some riders are being excluded. I don't know if anyone has written an article or posted a video on Youtube explaining the way that stuff works. (I can't access stuff on Instagram, so that's not a resource for me.)
Bernard's remarks about the prize money are probably just the tip of that iceberg. I have no doubt that's been a behind-the-scenes issue for lots of riders. Add to that the switch to having semis this year, the arrangement of the pits at Andorra, etc., and it's not surprising to see dissent.
You can enter without race points by paying the trade team fee. Which is now nearly 5x more expensive since eso took charge with no improved...
You can enter without race points by paying the trade team fee. Which is now nearly 5x more expensive since eso took charge with no improved payout to the riders r any tangible improvements in onsite medical and safety improvements.
It's not as simple as just paying (and having a sponsor/pay scale/etc.) you also need to have at minimum 2 riders on the team of which one of them has to have been an:
Elite male who placed 60th in the previous years World Cup overall or World Championship
Elite female who placed 25th """
Junior male who placed 25th ""
Junior female who placed 10th ""
If Adam Brayton could get a few UCI points in the next two weeks or get a national jersey he can race the last few world cups and hopefully find a second person to start a team with for next year so he'll be free of the 40 point minimum.
I have written a ton about the team rules and other changes for 2023 (as I love to do every year) here:
[Edit: I posted this comment and then found a brief article on another site, so I sort of understand a bit better what the discontent about the points situation is about.]
I'm glad it wasn't just me who thought that. I still don't understand the Adam Brayton situation or the whole deal with points affecting who can race. It seems like there are tons of riders who have few points (or none) who get to enter the qualifying, so I'm having a hard time getting why some riders are being excluded. I don't know if anyone has written an article or posted a video on Youtube explaining the way that stuff works. (I can't access stuff on Instagram, so that's not a resource for me.)
Bernard's remarks about the prize money are probably just the tip of that iceberg. I have no doubt that's been a behind-the-scenes issue for lots of riders. Add to that the switch to having semis this year, the arrangement of the pits at Andorra, etc., and it's not surprising to see dissent.
You can enter without race points by paying the trade team fee. Which is now nearly 5x more expensive since eso took charge with no improved payout to the riders r any tangible improvements in onsite medical and safety improvements.
Donāt federations also get so many spots to enter people and have to race in their jersey?
Also another telling thing was in Fox video about how they shouldnāt be just doing repairs on 100 forks but instead working with certain people. (Or something along that lines), but sounded like they would be happy to have the entries cut down.
it's confusing to me as well as how Adam was actually race so far and not now. But keep in mind there is series points but also global ranking points. The 40 points needed can be earned at any UCI sanctioned race that offers them. Portugal Cup, Crankworx Canada Cup series etc. Strangely enough it looks the British National series that Adam was racing doesn't offer UCI points so while he was placing well there he wasn't earning the needed UCI points.
Huh, that's a different view than the way I heard it; I took it to mean that riders had started treating the Fox team as basic suspension service instead of using them as a suspension-tuning resource. Jordi basically saying "do the basics on your own and let us focus on getting your set-up dialed". (That's all *my* interpretation fwiw...)
Apparently national federations can add 3 Elite riders per category. There are 27 countries represented on this week's qualifying start list, compared to 22 countries last year at Vallnord. This might at least partially explain why the number of starters this week is greater than the number who were on last year's start list at Vallnord.
yeah that goes for every race and usually depends on when World Champs happen. with a smaller break after the Worlds as opposed to before I think the Canadian team chose to have the junior riders there doing this block of races to get expierence.
The UCI maintains a database with all riders UCI Ranking points on their website which is updated weekly. Itās easy to drill down to individual riders and see their total points and race results. If a riderās name does not show up on the list/search itās because they have not scored any points.
For a privateer, like Adam Brayton, he requires 40 points to gain entry to a World Cup race. He was personally caught out because he mistakenly believed he would be awarded UCI ranking points for the Semifinals he raced in the last two rounds. The UCI ranking points only last 1 year. He found himself in this position mid-season as points from previous year are removed coupled with not being awarded any for his semifinal placing.
Itās difficult to gets point from UK racing. There are only two events and one being Fort William which is usually attended by all pro teams. Also, a privateer budget may have been based around World Cups only. They may not be in the position of pro teams who can for all pre season training and travelling to other countries for UCI sanctioned races.
Without points a privateer rider can only enter a World cup by being awarded a jersey by their National Federation. Each national federation can award up to 3 jerseys based on merit.
If your name is down on a pro team, you donāt require any points to race in the World Cup. So, if you have the cash to set up a pro team you can effectively race a WORLD cup having no prior racing experience or results! Cash is King!
You can even see the favoritism with pro team on how they allocate training practice. For example Gee hasn't raced a bike in 2 years and there he is racing World Cups in Group A practice. There's plenty more if you look at the rankings !
Iām sure there are other examples of privateers getting a raw deal on this new format. Qualifying at that level, living out of the back of a van against the odds is a hell of an achievement and they are being pushed out.
The organization doesnāt want privateers. Just a small niche of riders and no outside competition. Name any other sports that have so many convoluted rules and these stupid protected statuses. Itās no wonder people outside the sport donāt take it seriously !
Who charged it and who cruised it? Elite Timed Training results are in! https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/news/results-loris-vergier-and-vali-holl-ā¦
Junior qualifying results: https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/news/results-vallnord-world-cup-dh-juniorā¦
Watch out for Hauser, 42nd at the first split (must have been a crash/error) and finished 5th. On a side note, is there a way to see actual split times instead of combined split times somewhere?
solid breakdown of it all. as you said, brayton mistakenly thought his semi-final points would keep him in.
but i still don't understand. has anyone been able to figure out why brayton's semi-final points total after VDS doesn't count toward the 40 required points for entry into 2023 world cups?
according to 2023 individual standings results sheet after VDS, brayton is 55th with 47 points (accumulated via semi-finals results in 2023). based on that standings sheet, these 47 points count toward an actual 2023 ranking. so why do they not count toward entry into 2023 races? if 2022 points expired, shouldn't 2023 these points carry over to 2024, giving him required 40 for next year?
has there been any explanation as to why all points on the individual standings sheet are not the same? aren't points, points? there is no indicator on the individual standings results sheet that the points totaling brayton's 47 are different than the points totaling jackson's 786.
if it's been explained or a rule has been pointed out, sorry if i missed. am i confusing UCI rank vs world cup standings? don't these 2023 points count toward a UCI rank in real-time?
(screenshot of brayton's overall points this season at 47 points and top riders from the individual standings sheet after VDS)
Yeah the series points and overall ranking points is what seems to be confusing everyone. You can accumulate your 40 ranking points through a variety uci races that arenāt world cups.
so theoretically, you could win every semi-final race, DNF all finals and have no points for a UCI ranking? do qualifying points count for anything?
bernard practice vlog
Grandad posted a bunch more detail:
Screen-grab for those w/out Insta
thanks @dolface - also raw is up - https://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/features/vital-raw-andorra-world-cup-dhā¦
Theoretically one could win all semis and dnf all finals but have no uci ranking, and still win the overall (very unlikely I admit). I can't be understanding that correctly! I really hope I misunderstood.
Aren't points good for 1 year and then drop off? Maybe he was riding off older expiring points. Didn't that happen to Kade or Kaos a year or two ago?
Kade is the hero we need:
"The racing is getting stressful man, like with the semis and the finals it's just, I dunno I'm starting to fall out of love with it...
It's (semi-finals) basically a race run and you get 31st and you don't even make finals it's dog shit. It really is, it's dog shit.
I think I dunno, we will see how it goes. Downhill might be dead. Nah I can't say that but I dunno I think it's just going to become very niche. It's going to be 30 guys and yeah like it's not going to be something you do anymore, you just watch it.
When I saw that (the news about Adam Brayton) the other day I was just like I'm over it. Why should someone who has made semis every go not have enough points to race a world cup, it just doesn't make any sense. It doesn't add up at all.
I don't know what is going on, you guys need to sort your shit out. Big time."
Is it just me or does the last berm before the finish look like it's not gonna last until finals?
Alright, since nobody asked, here is my best attempt at explaining the crap shoot that is Semi-Finals points.
1.) There are two points standing in discussion: UCI Individual Ranking and UCI Downhill World Series standings. Both of which have always been a thing.
2.) A rider's UCI Ranking is based on points acquired at any UCI event (e.g. World Championships), and ONLY qualifying (top 20) and finals (top 30) any of the 8 World Cups in 2023 (minus the final round, which doesn't pay points in qualifying).
3.) UCI DH World Series standings are based ONLY on points acquired in Qualifying, Semi-Finals (top 60), and Finals at any of the 8 World Cups in 2023.
As an example, here is Adam Brayton's standing and points breakdown in each ranking:
And here is Andreas Kolb's standings and points breakdown (note how his second at Worlds earlier this month counts towards his UCI Individual Ranking but not the DH World Series standings):
4.) The '2023 UCI Downhill Overall World Cup Champion' is crowned based on the UCI Downhill World Series standings.
5.) A ride needs 40 UCI points acquired from a UCI event to race a World Cup. However, points acquired from the Semi-Finals at World Cups do not count.
6.) If I didn't already strongly despise the addition of Semi-Finals because it waters down the racing, this has solidified my discontent. I've been saying all year that the only good thing about Semi-Finals was that it awarded UCI points in a similar fashion to riders who finished 30-60 in 2022. But turns out that isn't true, and now I really don't understand why we are doing Semi-Finals.
Hopefully I got this right/helped some. Get ready for a heated debate on the next B Practice Podcast.
Statement from UCI on semi points :
There are 2 things to differentiate:
UCI RANKING ā taking into account all the races on the calendar, points scale as per the annex 3 of the UCI rules. In this case, the semi-finals are not awarding points.
UCI MTB WORLD CUP STANDING ā taking into account only the UCI MTB World Cup events, points scale as per article 4.11.020 of the UCI Regulations.
So the semi points are useful for riders going for a World Cup standing position. Unfortunately to enter the World Cup you need to have UCI ranking points.
One other benefit of UCI ranking points is your start position and allocation of training group (A and B ). For some reason they only use the World Cup standings points for the top 60. So an elite who qualified in all three semi's and was 61st overall in World Cup standings but has no UCI ranking points (for example a privateer on a national jersey) would be given a high number board and potentially shoved in Group B practice, which is a major disadvantage at that level.
ESO have a lot to answer for making this so much more complex than it needs to be. Going by comments on social media, if fans of the sport are struggling with this then what chance someone new coming into the sport.
That's really helpful, thank you!
My understanding is that ESO now decides what the rules are (including points allocation) and the UCI just ratifies the rules so this mess is squarely on them (w/ an assist by UCI)?
So by cutting down the finals all they did was lessen the chance to get UCI points at a worlds cup are force more people to chase points at lower level events that pay very few points?
It should be noted that final runs award UCI ranking points to 60th (a hold over from years past as per the Annex 3 I noted in a poost further back in this thread) but as there is a maximum possibility of 40 riders allowed into a final (30 non-protected riders plus the 10 finals protected guys assuming they didn't do a good enough run in semis) it's effectively only scoring to 40th which awards 21 UCI ranking points. Taylor Vernon's 31st at Lenzerheide earned him a whopping 30 UCI ranking points.
UCI Ranking is based off a rolling 12 months of earned points so it would be possible to be qualified for Andorra, go 21st in Qualifiers, 1st in Semis, then DNF finals and not be able to race the next round because one of the races that you scored UCI Ranking points is now a year and week in the past taking those points out of your total lessening you to 39 points.
I'd like to think the UCI/ESO simply overlooked changing Annex 3 to reflect the changes in how the sport is being run at world cups to make earned WC standing points the same as ranking points as things have always been, but something tells me that was intentional to ween the field down indirectly before next year's likely direct cutting of the field.
It's not as simple as just paying (and having a sponsor/pay scale/etc.) you also need to have at minimum 2 riders on the team of which one of them has to have been an:
Elite male who placed 60th in the previous years World Cup overall or World Championship
Elite female who placed 25th """
Junior male who placed 25th ""
Junior female who placed 10th ""
If Adam Brayton could get a few UCI points in the next two weeks or get a national jersey he can race the last few world cups and hopefully find a second person to start a team with for next year so he'll be free of the 40 point minimum.
I have written a ton about the team rules and other changes for 2023 (as I love to do every year) here:
https://www.vitalmtb.com/news/press-release/ews-becomes-uci-world-cup-eā¦
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