Tuned Mass Dampers and Mountain Bikes

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sethimus
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251
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9/20/2014
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CH
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9/29/2024 12:44am
Edit: somehow can‘t upload a photo but it‘s the counterscycle product that‘s seen on Loris (and others) bikes that‘s available to purchaseAfter all the hype and...

Edit: somehow can‘t upload a photo but it‘s the counterscycle product that‘s seen on Loris (and others) bikes that‘s available to purchase



After all the hype and talk I couldn‘t ressist…

From shaking it in my hand I can feel there‘s a weight in there moving up and down. Without riding the bike I can‘t tell if there‘s anything going on. Looking to take it out to a trail the next weekend. 
I‘m still thinking about the placement on the fork/steerer area.

Is there a reason to put it right or left? And how much up or down on the fork?

 

how much was shipping to germany? paid any customs on top?

9/29/2024 12:51am
sethimus wrote:

how much was shipping to germany? paid any customs on top?

Paid around 25$ extra for shipping and it arrived within a couple days with fedex priority. Customs was just 11€, but you can get unlucky there too.

2
9/29/2024 12:53am
Im really interested in trying a light version on the rear axle, but like you I need to figure out a mounting setup.  Stoke you felt...

Im really interested in trying a light version on the rear axle, but like you I need to figure out a mounting setup.  Stoke you felt a positive change!  I’ll keep experimenting, see where else this can be mounted or frequency we can cancel out.

Did you change any settings on the dorado to go with it?

ballz
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Ouagadougou EH
10/3/2024 4:02pm

Any chance these improve riding comfort when going under 15mph? I am assuming they are meant for going Mach 2 down a racetrack, so no.

seanfisseli
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Santa Cruz, CA US
10/3/2024 10:36pm
ballz wrote:

Any chance these improve riding comfort when going under 15mph? I am assuming they are meant for going Mach 2 down a racetrack, so no.

I would assume they would be tuned different but unless you’re riding so slow as to not generate any forces…

10/3/2024 10:50pm
ballz wrote:

Any chance these improve riding comfort when going under 15mph? I am assuming they are meant for going Mach 2 down a racetrack, so no.

Yes they do. At least the Countershox one, as long as you have some bumps in it, it will work. Although I think the faster you go the more useful the effect is.

1
10/4/2024 4:43am
Im really interested in trying a light version on the rear axle, but like you I need to figure out a mounting setup.  Stoke you felt...

Im really interested in trying a light version on the rear axle, but like you I need to figure out a mounting setup.  Stoke you felt a positive change!  I’ll keep experimenting, see where else this can be mounted or frequency we can cancel out.

Did you change any settings on the dorado to go with it?

I feel like i was able to stiffen my compression a bit and speed up the rebound.  I do think to get the most out of the CounterShox you should adjust your air/coil and clickers if you feel it's needed.  Since the Countershox is removing some of the vibrations, it lets me run a stiffer bike but still has comfort to my hands and feet.  The positive of this is now that my bike is more stable from pitching on and off brakes.  I used to run an incredible soft suspension setup because I was searching for comfort.

FerrousBueller
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Little Rock, AR US
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1105th
10/4/2024 7:50am

Would love to see these devices integrated into frames, forks, steerer tubes etc. in a modular way. Or at least add dedicated mounting points for them in common locations.

1
jeff.brines
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Grand Junction, CO US
10/4/2024 8:39am Edited Date/Time 10/4/2024 8:50am

I love that we are at this point in the sport, but tuned mass dampers (TMDs) seem more a reflection of hyper optimization than some must-have breakthrough that will change the sport (or your bike) forever. I'd put aftermarket linkages, pedal kickback devices etc in this realm as well. This isn't to say an average joe type rider won't or can't benefit from this type of thing, but it will become harder and harder to decouple placebo from real world effect. 

If I'm riding a well serviced bike that is super dialed for me and my technique is solid of course I'll benefit from all these new fangled devices, so long as we can actually setup something like a TMD to do something specific without chasing our tail elsewhere. Also, remember, Dak specifically said it helps him see when he's riding so close to the edge his eyeballs are being shaken like he's in a paint shaker. How many of us mortals can say this is a common complaint? Not saying it doesn't happen, but I am saying this is the type of "on the edge" willingness one needs to have for these things to really start to add up to something of value. 

Remember, most riders (not on Vital per se) are on a bike that desperately needs suspension service, isn't properly setup for the rider in the first place, has clapped out tires/wheels/whatever, is the wrong size and/or the rider drags brake everywhere he/she goes. In these situations, adding some new fangled device like a TMD is way more placebo than something real. Or at the very least its one of those "stepping over dollars to pickup pennies" type of thing. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DAsKBzCOFqR/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Video of Jordi giving his thoughts on the TMD while testing with Richie. Obviously, with Jordi's relationship to Fox, it sort of has to be taken with a grain (or three) of salt, but I still think he more or less hits the nail on the head. The TMD is going to need to be tuned, likely with data, to a particular rider's demands/setup/bike/etc. A one sized fits approach is unlikely to work when we are aiming at a bike/rider specific frequency to dampen or "tune out" to some extent. 

 

4
All-MTN-MTB
Posts
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Joined
3/1/2023
Location
Boulder, CO US
10/4/2024 8:50am
Im really interested in trying a light version on the rear axle, but like you I need to figure out a mounting setup.  Stoke you felt...

Im really interested in trying a light version on the rear axle, but like you I need to figure out a mounting setup.  Stoke you felt a positive change!  I’ll keep experimenting, see where else this can be mounted or frequency we can cancel out.

Did you change any settings on the dorado to go with it?

I feel like i was able to stiffen my compression a bit and speed up the rebound.  I do think to get the most out of...

I feel like i was able to stiffen my compression a bit and speed up the rebound.  I do think to get the most out of the CounterShox you should adjust your air/coil and clickers if you feel it's needed.  Since the Countershox is removing some of the vibrations, it lets me run a stiffer bike but still has comfort to my hands and feet.  The positive of this is now that my bike is more stable from pitching on and off brakes.  I used to run an incredible soft suspension setup because I was searching for comfort.

I’d be curious to hear about how the bike feels with the spring and damper settings for the CounterShoxs, but with the CounterShox removed. I think it’d be a way to flush out the difference in feel even more

1
10/4/2024 9:56am
I love that we are at this point in the sport, but tuned mass dampers (TMDs) seem more a reflection of hyper optimization than some must-have...

I love that we are at this point in the sport, but tuned mass dampers (TMDs) seem more a reflection of hyper optimization than some must-have breakthrough that will change the sport (or your bike) forever. I'd put aftermarket linkages, pedal kickback devices etc in this realm as well. This isn't to say an average joe type rider won't or can't benefit from this type of thing, but it will become harder and harder to decouple placebo from real world effect. 

If I'm riding a well serviced bike that is super dialed for me and my technique is solid of course I'll benefit from all these new fangled devices, so long as we can actually setup something like a TMD to do something specific without chasing our tail elsewhere. Also, remember, Dak specifically said it helps him see when he's riding so close to the edge his eyeballs are being shaken like he's in a paint shaker. How many of us mortals can say this is a common complaint? Not saying it doesn't happen, but I am saying this is the type of "on the edge" willingness one needs to have for these things to really start to add up to something of value. 

Remember, most riders (not on Vital per se) are on a bike that desperately needs suspension service, isn't properly setup for the rider in the first place, has clapped out tires/wheels/whatever, is the wrong size and/or the rider drags brake everywhere he/she goes. In these situations, adding some new fangled device like a TMD is way more placebo than something real. Or at the very least its one of those "stepping over dollars to pickup pennies" type of thing. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DAsKBzCOFqR/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Video of Jordi giving his thoughts on the TMD while testing with Richie. Obviously, with Jordi's relationship to Fox, it sort of has to be taken with a grain (or three) of salt, but I still think he more or less hits the nail on the head. The TMD is going to need to be tuned, likely with data, to a particular rider's demands/setup/bike/etc. A one sized fits approach is unlikely to work when we are aiming at a bike/rider specific frequency to dampen or "tune out" to some extent. 

 

In order to find something that might be a breakthrough, new things have to be tried. If no one tries aftermarket linkages, pedal kickback devices, TMD's, air spring modifications in a fork, etc. then things stagnate. 

8
10/4/2024 10:08am

Maybe there are people out there setting these things up solely by feel and it's working great for them, but I have to think that the groups hoping to sell these things to the masses (ha!) are super bummed about the MI System 2 being shelved.  I'm not sure I'd add this complexity to my mtb experience regardless, but there is zero chance of me buying one of these things without some ability to use DAQ to aid me in setting it up.

2
jeff.brines
Posts
880
Joined
8/29/2010
Location
Grand Junction, CO US
10/4/2024 10:11am Edited Date/Time 10/4/2024 10:19am
I love that we are at this point in the sport, but tuned mass dampers (TMDs) seem more a reflection of hyper optimization than some must-have...

I love that we are at this point in the sport, but tuned mass dampers (TMDs) seem more a reflection of hyper optimization than some must-have breakthrough that will change the sport (or your bike) forever. I'd put aftermarket linkages, pedal kickback devices etc in this realm as well. This isn't to say an average joe type rider won't or can't benefit from this type of thing, but it will become harder and harder to decouple placebo from real world effect. 

If I'm riding a well serviced bike that is super dialed for me and my technique is solid of course I'll benefit from all these new fangled devices, so long as we can actually setup something like a TMD to do something specific without chasing our tail elsewhere. Also, remember, Dak specifically said it helps him see when he's riding so close to the edge his eyeballs are being shaken like he's in a paint shaker. How many of us mortals can say this is a common complaint? Not saying it doesn't happen, but I am saying this is the type of "on the edge" willingness one needs to have for these things to really start to add up to something of value. 

Remember, most riders (not on Vital per se) are on a bike that desperately needs suspension service, isn't properly setup for the rider in the first place, has clapped out tires/wheels/whatever, is the wrong size and/or the rider drags brake everywhere he/she goes. In these situations, adding some new fangled device like a TMD is way more placebo than something real. Or at the very least its one of those "stepping over dollars to pickup pennies" type of thing. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DAsKBzCOFqR/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Video of Jordi giving his thoughts on the TMD while testing with Richie. Obviously, with Jordi's relationship to Fox, it sort of has to be taken with a grain (or three) of salt, but I still think he more or less hits the nail on the head. The TMD is going to need to be tuned, likely with data, to a particular rider's demands/setup/bike/etc. A one sized fits approach is unlikely to work when we are aiming at a bike/rider specific frequency to dampen or "tune out" to some extent. 

 

In order to find something that might be a breakthrough, new things have to be tried. If no one tries aftermarket linkages, pedal kickback devices, TMD's...

In order to find something that might be a breakthrough, new things have to be tried. If no one tries aftermarket linkages, pedal kickback devices, TMD's, air spring modifications in a fork, etc. then things stagnate. 

Of course! Nowhere did I say we shouldn't try new things. What I am however saying is people often step over much easier/obvious performance gains to follow the proverbial herd. I'm also suggesting we're whittling away at smaller gains than maybe we were 5-10 years ago. All of these things can be true at the same time, and if history is a guide this is exactly what we should expect (optimizing for smaller and smaller "real" gains).

1
3
10/4/2024 11:47am
I’d be curious to hear about how the bike feels with the spring and damper settings for the CounterShoxs, but with the CounterShox removed. I think...

I’d be curious to hear about how the bike feels with the spring and damper settings for the CounterShoxs, but with the CounterShox removed. I think it’d be a way to flush out the difference in feel even more

Tomorrow I will try with more air the fork and maybe more compression too, because with the tmd only on the fork it feels like the chassis is in general pitched a little bit more forward.

10/4/2024 7:51pm

Did you change any settings on the dorado to go with it?

I feel like i was able to stiffen my compression a bit and speed up the rebound.  I do think to get the most out of...

I feel like i was able to stiffen my compression a bit and speed up the rebound.  I do think to get the most out of the CounterShox you should adjust your air/coil and clickers if you feel it's needed.  Since the Countershox is removing some of the vibrations, it lets me run a stiffer bike but still has comfort to my hands and feet.  The positive of this is now that my bike is more stable from pitching on and off brakes.  I used to run an incredible soft suspension setup because I was searching for comfort.

I’d be curious to hear about how the bike feels with the spring and damper settings for the CounterShoxs, but with the CounterShox removed. I think...

I’d be curious to hear about how the bike feels with the spring and damper settings for the CounterShoxs, but with the CounterShox removed. I think it’d be a way to flush out the difference in feel even more

The bike is not fun to ride in this setting. (setup for countershox but removed). Much more feedback to my hands and less planted bike. It felt like it was deflecting all the way down the trail.


I did a test recording axle and bar movements with and without countershox. There is an article on PB that has all the graphs and results. https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-countersycles-tuned-mass-damper-for-mountain-bikes.html

 I have no horse in the race, I’m just a rider who’s trying to make his bike feel awesome and enjoys testing.  I’ve tried a lot of stuff on my bike that didn’t make a difference, but using TMD makes enough of a change that I’m keeping them on. I think everything will evolve and they will be hidden in the future.


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9
ballz
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Ouagadougou EH
10/9/2024 2:10pm

Where's the 0-50Hz chart?

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