I ride a reeb sst with flat pedals and onyx hub. I notice the soft catch of the onyx by way of increased traction on technical...
I ride a reeb sst with flat pedals and onyx hub. I notice the soft catch of the onyx by way of increased traction on technical half-ratchet climbs, were too much torque too quickly would spin out with a sudden pawl engagement. The soft catch is almost like a mechanical traction control for the first couple of degrees of engagement. This is coming from 10 degree hubs, not a high tooth count pawl hub. Headed downhill the sprag clutch may take some of the sting out of pkb, but it is still high engagement so you still feel the chain tug the pedals.
Putting on the STFU made the ride feel smoother, more refined and less busy. I was curious about a low degree ochain with the onyx but since I got the STFU I have not thought about it. So if you are interested in ochain, maybe start with the $40 and zero maintenance STFU then go from there.
No experience with STFU, but I will concur that the soft catch on the Onyx hubs feel less jarring in certain compression moments. I like them a lot, but there's also a couple riders I know who don't like the feeling they describe as "sluggish". I would go as far to say that the Onyx hubs feel like a super mini version of the Tairin hubs I now run - instead of 5.5 degrees of consistent give, there's only 0.5-1 degree of consistent give, but it is pretty consistent.
I ride a reeb sst with flat pedals and onyx hub. I notice the soft catch of the onyx by way of increased traction on technical...
I ride a reeb sst with flat pedals and onyx hub. I notice the soft catch of the onyx by way of increased traction on technical half-ratchet climbs, were too much torque too quickly would spin out with a sudden pawl engagement. The soft catch is almost like a mechanical traction control for the first couple of degrees of engagement. This is coming from 10 degree hubs, not a high tooth count pawl hub. Headed downhill the sprag clutch may take some of the sting out of pkb, but it is still high engagement so you still feel the chain tug the pedals.
Putting on the STFU made the ride feel smoother, more refined and less busy. I was curious about a low degree ochain with the onyx but since I got the STFU I have not thought about it. So if you are interested in ochain, maybe start with the $40 and zero maintenance STFU then go from there.
No experience with STFU, but I will concur that the soft catch on the Onyx hubs feel less jarring in certain compression moments. I like them...
No experience with STFU, but I will concur that the soft catch on the Onyx hubs feel less jarring in certain compression moments. I like them a lot, but there's also a couple riders I know who don't like the feeling they describe as "sluggish". I would go as far to say that the Onyx hubs feel like a super mini version of the Tairin hubs I now run - instead of 5.5 degrees of consistent give, there's only 0.5-1 degree of consistent give, but it is pretty consistent.
Would you say the onyx was better or worse for pedal feedback than something like a dt 54 tooth?
I ride a reeb sst with flat pedals and onyx hub. I notice the soft catch of the onyx by way of increased traction on technical...
I ride a reeb sst with flat pedals and onyx hub. I notice the soft catch of the onyx by way of increased traction on technical half-ratchet climbs, were too much torque too quickly would spin out with a sudden pawl engagement. The soft catch is almost like a mechanical traction control for the first couple of degrees of engagement. This is coming from 10 degree hubs, not a high tooth count pawl hub. Headed downhill the sprag clutch may take some of the sting out of pkb, but it is still high engagement so you still feel the chain tug the pedals.
Putting on the STFU made the ride feel smoother, more refined and less busy. I was curious about a low degree ochain with the onyx but since I got the STFU I have not thought about it. So if you are interested in ochain, maybe start with the $40 and zero maintenance STFU then go from there.
No experience with STFU, but I will concur that the soft catch on the Onyx hubs feel less jarring in certain compression moments. I like them...
No experience with STFU, but I will concur that the soft catch on the Onyx hubs feel less jarring in certain compression moments. I like them a lot, but there's also a couple riders I know who don't like the feeling they describe as "sluggish". I would go as far to say that the Onyx hubs feel like a super mini version of the Tairin hubs I now run - instead of 5.5 degrees of consistent give, there's only 0.5-1 degree of consistent give, but it is pretty consistent.
Would you say the onyx was better or worse for pedal feedback than something like a dt 54 tooth?
I haven't run the DTs with a 54 tooth recently so I can't comment on that. My most comparable hub would probably be the i9 1/1 hub, and I personally like the Onyx better - you always know what you're getting with the onyx, it's predictable. With the i9 1/1, it could be nothing, or it could be a pretty jarring sensation.
I think all that could be a fool's errand. While pedal kickback is obviously a thing, what are we actually trying to solve? Suspension performance? Feet blowing off pedals? Jarring feelings through the feet?
Pedal kickback was the first term described to cause these issues. It's catchy and easy to say so people latched on to it. O Chain jumped on the phrase. Then the semantics began: "you can't get pk if you're going over 11.7km/h!", "What about going fast and skidding tires?", "The science says this!". Meanwhile everyone is still out there getting their feet blasted by their pedals and left listening to nerds argue about micro events that may or may not happen. Yet Ochain, STFU, and all the other products are making an obvious difference to people.
I don't think the conversation should be what is pk and how do you measure pk. It should be "What is the problem, what causes it, and how can we quantify those causes?" I don't know shit about shit, but I think that problem is pedal feedback and pedal kickback as it is traditionally known, is just a single part of it. Don't get tunnel vision on an assumed cause.
When talking about kickback feelings in general, not measuring it per-se, but talking about on trail testing... Has anybody tested the position of the derailleur and the impact? Not the gear you are in and influencing the derailleur that way, but shortening or lengthening the chain to modify where the derailleur cage is in the arc of it's movement. The chain will have different leverages on the cage depending on the position of the cage (so if it is pulled all the way back, all the way forward or if it is vertically oriented with the chain perpendicular to it).
When talking about kickback feelings in general, not measuring it per-se, but talking about on trail testing... Has anybody tested the position of the derailleur and...
When talking about kickback feelings in general, not measuring it per-se, but talking about on trail testing... Has anybody tested the position of the derailleur and the impact? Not the gear you are in and influencing the derailleur that way, but shortening or lengthening the chain to modify where the derailleur cage is in the arc of it's movement. The chain will have different leverages on the cage depending on the position of the cage (so if it is pulled all the way back, all the way forward or if it is vertically oriented with the chain perpendicular to it).
The chain tension of “pedal kick” is coming from cassette to chainring because of hub engagement. The derailleur tension or position shouldn’t make a difference.
When talking about kickback feelings in general, not measuring it per-se, but talking about on trail testing... Has anybody tested the position of the derailleur and...
When talking about kickback feelings in general, not measuring it per-se, but talking about on trail testing... Has anybody tested the position of the derailleur and the impact? Not the gear you are in and influencing the derailleur that way, but shortening or lengthening the chain to modify where the derailleur cage is in the arc of it's movement. The chain will have different leverages on the cage depending on the position of the cage (so if it is pulled all the way back, all the way forward or if it is vertically oriented with the chain perpendicular to it).
The chain tension of “pedal kick” is coming from cassette to chainring because of hub engagement. The derailleur tension or position shouldn’t make a difference.
The derailleur clutch works opposite the suspension so it does contribute at least a small amount to inhibited suspension even if it’s not “pedal kick” per se. Hypothetically since ochain damps chain forces, it could also help your derailleur not whip around quite as far (ergo therefore etc your derailleur stores less energy), so there could be some overlap there
This and I think the general consensus is that part of the pedal kickback problem is related to the chain whipping around? If it is held in place better or worse by the derailleur surely the should also have an effect?
When talking about kickback feelings in general, not measuring it per-se, but talking about on trail testing... Has anybody tested the position of the derailleur and...
When talking about kickback feelings in general, not measuring it per-se, but talking about on trail testing... Has anybody tested the position of the derailleur and the impact? Not the gear you are in and influencing the derailleur that way, but shortening or lengthening the chain to modify where the derailleur cage is in the arc of it's movement. The chain will have different leverages on the cage depending on the position of the cage (so if it is pulled all the way back, all the way forward or if it is vertically oriented with the chain perpendicular to it).
I've tested it in the workshop and it makes a measurable difference, ie a long chain in the smaller gears can add a kg or 2 of vertical force at the wheel. A lot of chains are so long the chain is pulling through or above the centre of the top pulley, which puts huge strain on the derailleur and pretty sure that's a big source of a lot of people breaking mechs. They also shift terribly when set up like this
My question then was what would happen if you kept the same gear, but made the chain shorter. So the engagement of the hub would effectively stay the same, but how the chain is held by the cage is different.
I got the thinking about this from thinking how tensioning is done in the case of a Pinion when it's using a belt or when using a chain (the gearbox mounted tensioner).
No experience with STFU, but I will concur that the soft catch on the Onyx hubs feel less jarring in certain compression moments. I like them a lot, but there's also a couple riders I know who don't like the feeling they describe as "sluggish". I would go as far to say that the Onyx hubs feel like a super mini version of the Tairin hubs I now run - instead of 5.5 degrees of consistent give, there's only 0.5-1 degree of consistent give, but it is pretty consistent.
Would you say the onyx was better or worse for pedal feedback than something like a dt 54 tooth?
I haven't run the DTs with a 54 tooth recently so I can't comment on that. My most comparable hub would probably be the i9 1/1 hub, and I personally like the Onyx better - you always know what you're getting with the onyx, it's predictable. With the i9 1/1, it could be nothing, or it could be a pretty jarring sensation.
Just saw this video (again) today and I thought it might be helpful for this discussion!
I think all that could be a fool's errand. While pedal kickback is obviously a thing, what are we actually trying to solve? Suspension performance? Feet blowing off pedals? Jarring feelings through the feet?
Pedal kickback was the first term described to cause these issues. It's catchy and easy to say so people latched on to it. O Chain jumped on the phrase. Then the semantics began: "you can't get pk if you're going over 11.7km/h!", "What about going fast and skidding tires?", "The science says this!". Meanwhile everyone is still out there getting their feet blasted by their pedals and left listening to nerds argue about micro events that may or may not happen. Yet Ochain, STFU, and all the other products are making an obvious difference to people.
I don't think the conversation should be what is pk and how do you measure pk. It should be "What is the problem, what causes it, and how can we quantify those causes?" I don't know shit about shit, but I think that problem is pedal feedback and pedal kickback as it is traditionally known, is just a single part of it. Don't get tunnel vision on an assumed cause.
When talking about kickback feelings in general, not measuring it per-se, but talking about on trail testing... Has anybody tested the position of the derailleur and the impact? Not the gear you are in and influencing the derailleur that way, but shortening or lengthening the chain to modify where the derailleur cage is in the arc of it's movement. The chain will have different leverages on the cage depending on the position of the cage (so if it is pulled all the way back, all the way forward or if it is vertically oriented with the chain perpendicular to it).
The chain tension of “pedal kick” is coming from cassette to chainring because of hub engagement. The derailleur tension or position shouldn’t make a difference.
The derailleur clutch works opposite the suspension so it does contribute at least a small amount to inhibited suspension even if it’s not “pedal kick” per se. Hypothetically since ochain damps chain forces, it could also help your derailleur not whip around quite as far (ergo therefore etc your derailleur stores less energy), so there could be some overlap there
This and I think the general consensus is that part of the pedal kickback problem is related to the chain whipping around? If it is held in place better or worse by the derailleur surely the should also have an effect?
I've tested it in the workshop and it makes a measurable difference, ie a long chain in the smaller gears can add a kg or 2 of vertical force at the wheel. A lot of chains are so long the chain is pulling through or above the centre of the top pulley, which puts huge strain on the derailleur and pretty sure that's a big source of a lot of people breaking mechs. They also shift terribly when set up like this
My question then was what would happen if you kept the same gear, but made the chain shorter. So the engagement of the hub would effectively stay the same, but how the chain is held by the cage is different.
I got the thinking about this from thinking how tensioning is done in the case of a Pinion when it's using a belt or when using a chain (the gearbox mounted tensioner).
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