Testing the CentreHub and comparing it to OChain, Sidekick, no chain, STFU guides, and a combination of everything at once sounds very interesting/entertaining.
I do think people are missing the fact that this style of doing it is going to certainly have an effect on rolling speed, especially in higher gears. Not to mention I hate the idea of my chain spinning 100% of the time next to pant legs, shoe laces, socks.
I may be wrong but physics would say if a stick or rock gets wedged up in those delicate jockey wheels or on the cassette making the chain stop you better hope you used a small enough zip tie because if it doesn't break first your back wheel is locking up.
yes, the engagement degrees listed on the pusher include the degrees the pusher travels to activate the pawls + the degrees the pawls travel to engage...
yes, the engagement degrees listed on the pusher include the degrees the pusher travels to activate the pawls + the degrees the pawls travel to engage the ratchet ring.
So it is 6 to 12degrees ,9 to 15degrees or 12 to 18degrees then and it has a constant minimum 'deadspace' of 6 degrees.
The Sidekick uses a 45T ratchet ring that translates to an 8 degree "traditional" engagement. The degrees on the pusher are reflective of just the pusher movement itself.
So, if we are talking the total possible degrees: the 12 degree Pusher setting would be 12-20 degrees, the 15 degree Pusher setting would be 15-23 degrees and the 18 degree pusher setting would be 18-26 degrees.
It's important to remember that those are the numbers on paper, but in actual use there are constant suspension inputs, freewheeling that is resetting the pusher back to zero, and a few other intricacies. We tested a large number of different prototypes with varying engagement speeds and felt these were most appropriate for a range of short travel to DH applications. Dak, Ronan and the rest of the WC folks are typically running the 18 degree setting exclusively. For trail/AM/enduro bikes the shorter throw settings are typically more appropriate. Of course there are always variables based on the frame being used and a riders personal engagement speed preference.
The Sidekick uses a 45T ratchet ring that translates to an 8 degree "traditional" engagement. The degrees on the pusher are reflective of just the pusher...
The Sidekick uses a 45T ratchet ring that translates to an 8 degree "traditional" engagement. The degrees on the pusher are reflective of just the pusher movement itself.
So, if we are talking the total possible degrees: the 12 degree Pusher setting would be 12-20 degrees, the 15 degree Pusher setting would be 15-23 degrees and the 18 degree pusher setting would be 18-26 degrees.
It's important to remember that those are the numbers on paper, but in actual use there are constant suspension inputs, freewheeling that is resetting the pusher back to zero, and a few other intricacies. We tested a large number of different prototypes with varying engagement speeds and felt these were most appropriate for a range of short travel to DH applications. Dak, Ronan and the rest of the WC folks are typically running the 18 degree setting exclusively. For trail/AM/enduro bikes the shorter throw settings are typically more appropriate. Of course there are always variables based on the frame being used and a riders personal engagement speed preference.
Thanks for the detailed answer! Also worth mentioning that 26 degrees of float at the freehub sounds like a ton, but it translates to something like 11.5 degrees of float at the crank if you're in a 34:15 gear combo (34:15 is 2.26:1, pretty standard for the middle of a DH run). 11.5 degrees at the crank is pretty darn similar to the max degrees of float on a new Ochain, and that 12 degree Ochain setting bothered me not at all when I was riding bike park laps, shuttling, or doing winch and plummet riding.
I do think people are missing the fact that this style of doing it is going to certainly have an effect on rolling speed, especially in...
I do think people are missing the fact that this style of doing it is going to certainly have an effect on rolling speed, especially in higher gears. Not to mention I hate the idea of my chain spinning 100% of the time next to pant legs, shoe laces, socks.
I may be wrong but physics would say if a stick or rock gets wedged up in those delicate jockey wheels or on the cassette making the chain stop you better hope you used a small enough zip tie because if it doesn't break first your back wheel is locking up.
I had the same thoughts regarding the chain being converted to continuous rotating mass with a side of notable drag.
I also wonder about premature derailleur wear due to the abnormal chain tension on the lower cage caused by by the cassette pulling the chain through. Not as much concerned for the jockey wheels as I am b-knuckle and parallelogram pivots.
Testing the CentreHub and comparing it to OChain, Sidekick, no chain, STFU guides, and a combination of everything at once sounds very interesting/entertaining.
I do think people are missing the fact that this style of doing it is going to certainly have an effect on rolling speed, especially in...
I do think people are missing the fact that this style of doing it is going to certainly have an effect on rolling speed, especially in higher gears. Not to mention I hate the idea of my chain spinning 100% of the time next to pant legs, shoe laces, socks.
I may be wrong but physics would say if a stick or rock gets wedged up in those delicate jockey wheels or on the cassette making the chain stop you better hope you used a small enough zip tie because if it doesn't break first your back wheel is locking up.
This is what bothers me with front freehubs, current derailleurs, while much better (one way clutch) than what we had before, are still not designed for the cassette to drive the chain around the system. If the cassette was the driver, the derailleur cage (tensioner essentially) would be on the cassette - front chainring branch of the chain drive, not on the bottom.
I kinda listened to that during work hours. I have a few question'es.
1. Did anyone comment on minor g-outs into a bermed turn, when a high-engagement (think i9) hub will kind of torque the rear wheel noticeably, almost like a moto with throttle?
2. Any plans to make a burly straight-pull hub (again, like i9)? Honestly, I think all rear-hubs should be straight-pull. Straight-pulls are just the stiffest, longest-lasing wheels for me. Like, years, longer-lasting.
3. I've had terrible luck with e13 on quality. Had some OEM e13 hub / wheelsets on bikes years ago...and those wheels were absolute garbage. We're talking TOAST within 3-4 months. E13 chain guides / bash guard: total garbage--barely took one rock hit. Are you guys finally making durable stuff?
I kinda listened to that during work hours. I have a few question'es. 1. Did anyone comment on minor g-outs into a bermed turn, when a...
I kinda listened to that during work hours. I have a few question'es.
1. Did anyone comment on minor g-outs into a bermed turn, when a high-engagement (think i9) hub will kind of torque the rear wheel noticeably, almost like a moto with throttle?
2. Any plans to make a burly straight-pull hub (again, like i9)? Honestly, I think all rear-hubs should be straight-pull. Straight-pulls are just the stiffest, longest-lasing wheels for me. Like, years, longer-lasting.
3. I've had terrible luck with e13 on quality. Had some OEM e13 hub / wheelsets on bikes years ago...and those wheels were absolute garbage. We're talking TOAST within 3-4 months. E13 chain guides / bash guard: total garbage--barely took one rock hit. Are you guys finally making durable stuff?
4. Which pros are riding these bad-boys?
Hey Lawn Dart,
Here are some answers to your questions:
1. It sounds like you might be describing a pedal kickback event due to heavy suspension compression into a G-out. That is exactly what the Sidekick addresses.
2. We don't have plans for straight pull MTB hubs currently. All else being equal - same rim, same spokes/nipples ect, there is not a technical reason why one should see notably better durability/stiffness out of a straight pull vs a J-bend. Flange spacing (and equivalent spoke bracing angle) is not notably different. Interesting to hear you see such a difference.
3. First off, sorry to hear you had those experiences. It's obviously not the impression we want to make. Much of the negative e*thirteen rim reputation you see in the forums and comment sections is rooted in this old, low-end, high volume OEM spec. The combination of a fairly lightweight, lower-end 6061 alloy rim along with single-ply tires on bikes that often times ended up in the bike parks under younger and newer riders was not a good mix. In hindsight we certainly would have urged some of our OEM customers to spec heavier or higher end 6069 rims on those builds, spec dual ply tires or passed on the OEM spec. It's worth noting that while the low end OEM rim debacle was happening, our WC racers were typically breaking less of our carbon rims than any other mfg on the WC circuit at that time. As for your chainguide, I would need to get a better understanding of what generation guide you hand and a few other bits of info to provide a better answer. As a whole, our LG1 & Vario alloy/carbon backplate guides were/are quite reliable. Id be happy to chat via DM or phone if you want some more info.
4. Mondraker Factory - Dak Norton (He was on it last year also), Rónán Dunne, Ryan Pinkerton. Gwin Racing. Rémy Métailler. Intense Factory Racing - Joe Breeden, Louis Ferguson, Oscar Griffiths, Ryder Lawrence. NS United Ride.
Initial Impressions - Riding on a SJ Evo w Cascade Link, Float X, 18 degree setting.
1) It certainly does something. Others have said you feel like the bike rolls a little faster, and I agree with this.
2) The bike you put it on will have a big impact on how useful it really is. Obviously, the more kickback the bike has the more this product will matter.
3) I don't want to sound like a wet blanket, but most casual riders aren't going to notice a massive difference. I'll keep testing and reserve my right to change my opinion but its not a night and day type of change. That said, I do feel if you are a racer you'll likely want to look at adding something like this to your bike (again, depending on its pedal kickback properties). Where it felt most advantageous is when I was pushing hard and was riding near my limit, not noodling around at 80%.
4) I did not really notice the 18 degrees when pedaling around. That said, I'm coming off a dumpster low engagement hub, which IMO is a good "poor man's (part) solution" to this problem. Yes, at times you'll get kickback and other times you won't, depending on where the hub is when the suspension starts cycling but its notably better on this front than my fancier high engagement hubs. For what its worth, I made this switch part way through the summer and never felt the need to put the fancier hub back on...
5) I can't really comment on if it made my bike any quieter because my drivetrain is already mega quiet
.
Initial Impressions - Riding on a SJ Evo w Cascade Link, Float X, 18 degree setting. 1) It certainly does something. Others have said you feel like...
Initial Impressions - Riding on a SJ Evo w Cascade Link, Float X, 18 degree setting.
1) It certainly does something. Others have said you feel like the bike rolls a little faster, and I agree with this.
2) The bike you put it on will have a big impact on how useful it really is. Obviously, the more kickback the bike has the more this product will matter.
3) I don't want to sound like a wet blanket, but most casual riders aren't going to notice a massive difference. I'll keep testing and reserve my right to change my opinion but its not a night and day type of change. That said, I do feel if you are a racer you'll likely want to look at adding something like this to your bike (again, depending on its pedal kickback properties). Where it felt most advantageous is when I was pushing hard and was riding near my limit, not noodling around at 80%.
4) I did not really notice the 18 degrees when pedaling around. That said, I'm coming off a dumpster low engagement hub, which IMO is a good "poor man's (part) solution" to this problem. Yes, at times you'll get kickback and other times you won't, depending on where the hub is when the suspension starts cycling but its notably better on this front than my fancier high engagement hubs. For what its worth, I made this switch part way through the summer and never felt the need to put the fancier hub back on...
5) I can't really comment on if it made my bike any quieter because my drivetrain is already mega quiet
.
Great info and thanks for providing your input. I would add, that to me, my own SJEvo had incredibly smooth rear suspension with what I'd consider low kickback.
I like what E13 is doing here, but I've also noticed that Tarian (sp?) has a similar product as well but it's not adjustable. However, it's less money and weight and they can machine different engagements in, when ordering.
Next time I need wheels, it'll be for the e-bike and I'll almost certainly go with the E13 wheels. But I think for a pedal bike usage, I'd probably look really hard at the Tarian Shogun silent hub machined to give just 10' as that seems like a great compromise for a bike that needs to be pedaled.
Either way, I'm not jumping on this quickly, I'm going to see how it all shakes out.
for the graph-hungry, this is in the ethirteen PR linked in the original post of this thread. there is other data stuffs in the article too...
for the graph-hungry, this is in the ethirteen PR linked in the original post of this thread. there is other data stuffs in the article too (but it's e13's data, not someone else's)
I'm struggling with this, and need some help please!
Firstly the statement that "There is an average of 7% more time spent in the 11%-70% travel ranges". If the shock spends more time (as a percentage) in those areas then it must spend less time elsewhere, because the percentage must always add up to 100. But if you look at the chart then there's only one point (0-10) where it spends less time, and the difference is not of sufficient magnitude to make up for the gains elsewhere.
Part of that is because although they refer to "7%", the chart presents 'Time in travel range (secs)' - that's absolute time, not percentage of time. So if you total up the data points it looks to me like the Sidekick was run for longer than the standard hub (eyeballing a chart on the internet readout: 206 secs vs. 175 secs). So if the standard hub didn't get run for as long, how do we know that the missing 31 seconds wouldn't have been in the mid-travel ranges and therefore give exactly the same results as the Sidekick?
This also seems a very short sample period - less than 3 1/2 minutes. I appreciate it's about the same length as a 'typical' DH run, but don't forget this is the total time presented on this chart. You'd never trust someone who based their headline claims for a product like this on data from a single run. What kind of terrain/bike was it? Is it just a demonstrative example of a single run, i.e. they have hundreds of similar but slightly different graphs for multiple runs on different bikes and different locations? If so, why not label it accordingly? Or is this some kind of averaged data that just isn't labelled as such?
I'd really like to see this presented as a column chart for percentage of time, with each travel range having a separate column for each hub (i.e. a grouped bar chart, or double bar chart). And a note to say the total sample time, in seconds, that each shock had.
Also, is this even a good metric? The statement is that "It's easy to see that the rear end of the bike is more active" but they're measuring where the shock is in the travel, not whether it's moving or not. It could spend a good portion of its time in the 31-40% range and you wouldn't know whether it was sliding freely between 31% and 40%, or just stuck at 37% (hyperbole for demonstration purposes). Would it be better to measure the total time or number of instances, that the shock was static for more than <x> ms? If the Sidekick (or o-chain etc.) makes the shock more active then it would have less of that dead time / fewer instances. Or measure the number of times it moves between travel ranges, and even make the ranges smaller for better fidelity; more active shock = more transitions from one travel range to another?
The statement "we saw a cumulative increase of up to 44% in time spent across the 11%-70% travel ranges" suggests that staying in the mid-travel ranges is good, but I'm not sure I follow why a device that reduces pedal kickback / frees up suspension should lead to an increase in the amount of time you stay in the middle of travel, rather than just increasing movement at all points throughout the entire travel range?
I should point out that I'm not saying I don't believe e13, and I'm actually quite interested in trying/buying a Sidekick. I'm just not convinced this chart helps. But I am entirely open to the possibility that I have missed something obvious or misunderstood! 😆
I get what you are saying, I don’t have an answer. But maybe that test isn’t the best to sell the hub device, but just showing consumers that there is a change. I’ve been messing about with accelerometers on my bike and working through what is useful information and what isn’t. Sometimes there’s just data that shows, “yes there was a difference”.
I guess we don’t know enough information about the test.
My "quick thoughts" (lol) video review on the hub after ~20 or so rides.
My "quick thoughts" (lol) video review on the hub after ~20 or so rides.
Love the vid and your explanations. I also had to take the hub apart and fiddle with the mechanism to figure out how it works. Based on 5 rides so far, I pretty much agree with everything you said. Now for the long-term beatdown test.
At 7:00 minutes into the video, I was reminded of another Fabien Barel quote that isn't real because I just made it up: "Hyperbole, not accuracy."
Love the vid and your explanations. I also had to take the hub apart and fiddle with the mechanism to figure out how it works. Based...
Love the vid and your explanations. I also had to take the hub apart and fiddle with the mechanism to figure out how it works. Based on 5 rides so far, I pretty much agree with everything you said. Now for the long-term beatdown test.
At 7:00 minutes into the video, I was reminded of another Fabien Barel quote that isn't real because I just made it up: "Hyperbole, not accuracy."
That reminds me of another great quote:
"Never let truth get in the way of a good story." - Fabien Barel (probably...or someone like that)
Love the vid and your explanations. I also had to take the hub apart and fiddle with the mechanism to figure out how it works. Based...
Love the vid and your explanations. I also had to take the hub apart and fiddle with the mechanism to figure out how it works. Based on 5 rides so far, I pretty much agree with everything you said. Now for the long-term beatdown test.
At 7:00 minutes into the video, I was reminded of another Fabien Barel quote that isn't real because I just made it up: "Hyperbole, not accuracy."
My "quick thoughts" (lol) video review on the hub after ~20 or so rides.
My "quick thoughts" (lol) video review on the hub after ~20 or so rides.
Nice review, Jeff.
As you mentioned, you probably would have seen an even bigger impact if you were on a faster engaging hub to start (or different frame). Without a doubt, there are a lot of variables even beyond that frame and hub engagement speed (some of which you touched on). We'd be curious about your impression after doing some back-to-back runs with a faster engaging hub and if that changed anything. Either way, we're glad you like it!
@TEAMROBOT - Fair point about Fabian Barel. We should keep in context that he is a consummate racer through and through and was/is well known for his obsession with marginal gains. Indeed that was a statement he made after riding Sidekick and not one we spoon fed him.
Nice review, Jeff. As you mentioned, you probably would have seen an even bigger impact if you were on a faster engaging hub to start (or different...
Nice review, Jeff.
As you mentioned, you probably would have seen an even bigger impact if you were on a faster engaging hub to start (or different frame). Without a doubt, there are a lot of variables even beyond that frame and hub engagement speed (some of which you touched on). We'd be curious about your impression after doing some back-to-back runs with a faster engaging hub and if that changed anything. Either way, we're glad you like it!
@TEAMROBOT - Fair point about Fabian Barel. We should keep in context that he is a consummate racer through and through and was/is well known for his obsession with marginal gains. Indeed that was a statement he made after riding Sidekick and not one we spoon fed him.
Liked your suggestion and I'm reaching out to Vital people to see if we can scrounge up a fast engaging 29" wheel I could borrow for comparison tests. And by "borrow," I mean murder on back-to-back rocky Laguna runs.
My "quick thoughts" (lol) video review on the hub after ~20 or so rides.
My "quick thoughts" (lol) video review on the hub after ~20 or so rides.
Your point about just testing the potential affects by removing your chain, is just, common sense.
And I did just that unintentionally sometime back. I could feel a difference, but it wasn't game changing or anything.
How much of the improvement can be had, just by running the STFU chain control device without the penalties of the deadband on a bike?
If I was in the market for a set of new e-bike wheels, I'd almost certainly purchase the new E13 wheels. As it is, it's likely going to be a couple of years.
E13 guys: How much of the improved ride quality do you think has come from the Sidekick hub vs. from the new compliant rim layups?
Things that I'd like to see: 1) e-bike motors having deadband built right into the motor so no need for fancy hubs, 2) Bikes running lower anti-squat then using the Fox Neo electronic shocks to control unwanted suspension movement so no fancy hubs needed.
Your point about just testing the potential affects by removing your chain, is just, common sense. And I did just that unintentionally sometime back. I could feel...
Your point about just testing the potential affects by removing your chain, is just, common sense.
And I did just that unintentionally sometime back. I could feel a difference, but it wasn't game changing or anything.
How much of the improvement can be had, just by running the STFU chain control device without the penalties of the deadband on a bike?
If I was in the market for a set of new e-bike wheels, I'd almost certainly purchase the new E13 wheels. As it is, it's likely going to be a couple of years.
E13 guys: How much of the improved ride quality do you think has come from the Sidekick hub vs. from the new compliant rim layups?
Things that I'd like to see: 1) e-bike motors having deadband built right into the motor so no need for fancy hubs, 2) Bikes running lower anti-squat then using the Fox Neo electronic shocks to control unwanted suspension movement so no fancy hubs needed.
@Suns_PSD The Flux rims are very nice and certainly add compliance to the package, but the Sidekick hub is where the real nifty stuff is happening.
Lower antisquat is something that can be handled by the likes of Neo or Flight Attendant, but there's also a problem - you're going to make a shitty experience on lower specced bikes where electronics are not an option. Deadband in the hub motor is also not the easiest thing to do as a deadband motor will slam into the clutch harder than with a one-way/sprag clutch that is mostly used today, causing much higher loads in the transmission of the motor and probably causing even more failures.
FWIW, Jeff's video, I was surprised at the side to side movement of the chain on the top branch of it.
Your point about just testing the potential affects by removing your chain, is just, common sense. And I did just that unintentionally sometime back. I could feel...
Your point about just testing the potential affects by removing your chain, is just, common sense.
And I did just that unintentionally sometime back. I could feel a difference, but it wasn't game changing or anything.
How much of the improvement can be had, just by running the STFU chain control device without the penalties of the deadband on a bike?
If I was in the market for a set of new e-bike wheels, I'd almost certainly purchase the new E13 wheels. As it is, it's likely going to be a couple of years.
E13 guys: How much of the improved ride quality do you think has come from the Sidekick hub vs. from the new compliant rim layups?
Things that I'd like to see: 1) e-bike motors having deadband built right into the motor so no need for fancy hubs, 2) Bikes running lower anti-squat then using the Fox Neo electronic shocks to control unwanted suspension movement so no fancy hubs needed.
I've been wondering if the new Bosch CX motor does exactly what you asked for, in terms of building in free movement of the chainring, although I haven't seen any of the reviewers directly address this. All they're saying is that the new motor "decouples" the inner gears from the outer gears, so that you don't get the dreaded clutch rattle, but I can't tell what exactly happens when the top stretch of chain gets yanked on (ie. does the ring spin backward freely?). It seems like it must, or else when it catches it would cause the rattle due to the clutch engaging.
Hey y'all, there's a great visual of the Sidekick internals in this month's Vital gear show. The relevant part is at 6:37 in. Super helpful for me as I've been continutally confused trying to figure out exactly how it works. Based on this video, it's never truly "a freecoaster," instead it seems like the hub transforms from a 1-pawl hub to a normal 3-pawl hub once the red magic floating ninja star engages. And it wouldn't become a 4-pawl hub, because according to ethirteen the pusher pawl on the floating red ninja star pusher plate never bears any drivetrain load. Knowing that ultra low rolling resistance was one of ethirteen's goals for the Sidekick, it's also possible the pawl on the floating red ninja star has a lighter spring too, to reduce drag. Okay forum, tell me why my I'm wrong.
It's not a one pawl hub as the pawl on the red ninja star is there to stop the ninja star just for the three-pawl-carrier to rotate relative to it, for the ramps on the ninja stars to push the three actually driving pawl up into the ratchet ring and start bearing the load.
As long as there is no engagement between the ratchet ring and the three pawls, it's in freecoaster mode. The fourth pawl is the fixator for the 'main-pawl' engager thingie. That's exactly what gives you the float.
I have the Tairin silent shogun hubs on my Norco Range - not sure how much they helped though to be honest with Range being an HP design. I do enjoy them being quiet though.
UR Team testing the Sidekick in Morzine (I'm guessing during last summer). Maybe a bit surface level/not to much learned from their impressions, but still interesting.
Thanks to everyone who has ridden these hubs for sharing their experiences. I think Jeff's take makes sense, and I'm not a racer. However, it looked like Jeff clips in. I ride flats. For the non-racer, I'm wondering if the value proposition of these hubs is markedly different depending on whether you ride flats or clip in, and if the experience of one camp is all that relevant to the other. I'd also be using them on an enduro bike at the likes of Pisgah and Windrock, so proper steep, natural trails with lots of roots and rocks.
Now that this hub has been out for a minute, bumping this thread to see if anyone has addition mid-term thoughts, and whether your clip in or ride flats. Thanks in advance!
Thanks to everyone who has ridden these hubs for sharing their experiences. I think Jeff's take makes sense, and I'm not a racer. However, it looked...
Thanks to everyone who has ridden these hubs for sharing their experiences. I think Jeff's take makes sense, and I'm not a racer. However, it looked like Jeff clips in. I ride flats. For the non-racer, I'm wondering if the value proposition of these hubs is markedly different depending on whether you ride flats or clip in, and if the experience of one camp is all that relevant to the other. I'd also be using them on an enduro bike at the likes of Pisgah and Windrock, so proper steep, natural trails with lots of roots and rocks.
Now that this hub has been out for a minute, bumping this thread to see if anyone has addition mid-term thoughts, and whether your clip in or ride flats. Thanks in advance!
I clip in but ride the same trails as you, and I would 100% recommend the hub (or an Ochain) for you especially on flats. The free-feeling suspension and greatly reduced PKB is pretty noticeable on our chunkier, relatively slower trails with moments of speed and smashing. I would expect a rider on flats to have even more positives as your feet should want to stay more glued to the pedals through rough sections of trail. Downside is that both solutions can be a little cumbersome in the slower, more techy trails needing short and fast ratchets of the pedals to maintain momentum or punch up over a root or rock, but you do get used to it. 9/10 would recommend.
I do think people are missing the fact that this style of doing it is going to certainly have an effect on rolling speed, especially in higher gears. Not to mention I hate the idea of my chain spinning 100% of the time next to pant legs, shoe laces, socks.
I may be wrong but physics would say if a stick or rock gets wedged up in those delicate jockey wheels or on the cassette making the chain stop you better hope you used a small enough zip tie because if it doesn't break first your back wheel is locking up.
The Sidekick uses a 45T ratchet ring that translates to an 8 degree "traditional" engagement. The degrees on the pusher are reflective of just the pusher movement itself.
So, if we are talking the total possible degrees: the 12 degree Pusher setting would be 12-20 degrees, the 15 degree Pusher setting would be 15-23 degrees and the 18 degree pusher setting would be 18-26 degrees.
It's important to remember that those are the numbers on paper, but in actual use there are constant suspension inputs, freewheeling that is resetting the pusher back to zero, and a few other intricacies. We tested a large number of different prototypes with varying engagement speeds and felt these were most appropriate for a range of short travel to DH applications. Dak, Ronan and the rest of the WC folks are typically running the 18 degree setting exclusively. For trail/AM/enduro bikes the shorter throw settings are typically more appropriate. Of course there are always variables based on the frame being used and a riders personal engagement speed preference.
Thanks for the detailed answer! Also worth mentioning that 26 degrees of float at the freehub sounds like a ton, but it translates to something like 11.5 degrees of float at the crank if you're in a 34:15 gear combo (34:15 is 2.26:1, pretty standard for the middle of a DH run). 11.5 degrees at the crank is pretty darn similar to the max degrees of float on a new Ochain, and that 12 degree Ochain setting bothered me not at all when I was riding bike park laps, shuttling, or doing winch and plummet riding.
I had the same thoughts regarding the chain being converted to continuous rotating mass with a side of notable drag.
I also wonder about premature derailleur wear due to the abnormal chain tension on the lower cage caused by by the cassette pulling the chain through. Not as much concerned for the jockey wheels as I am b-knuckle and parallelogram pivots.
This is what bothers me with front freehubs, current derailleurs, while much better (one way clutch) than what we had before, are still not designed for the cassette to drive the chain around the system. If the cassette was the driver, the derailleur cage (tensioner essentially) would be on the cassette - front chainring branch of the chain drive, not on the bottom.
I kinda listened to that during work hours. I have a few question'es.
1. Did anyone comment on minor g-outs into a bermed turn, when a high-engagement (think i9) hub will kind of torque the rear wheel noticeably, almost like a moto with throttle?
2. Any plans to make a burly straight-pull hub (again, like i9)? Honestly, I think all rear-hubs should be straight-pull. Straight-pulls are just the stiffest, longest-lasing wheels for me. Like, years, longer-lasting.
3. I've had terrible luck with e13 on quality. Had some OEM e13 hub / wheelsets on bikes years ago...and those wheels were absolute garbage. We're talking TOAST within 3-4 months. E13 chain guides / bash guard: total garbage--barely took one rock hit. Are you guys finally making durable stuff?
4. Which pros are riding these bad-boys?
Hey Lawn Dart,
Here are some answers to your questions:
1. It sounds like you might be describing a pedal kickback event due to heavy suspension compression into a G-out. That is exactly what the Sidekick addresses.
2. We don't have plans for straight pull MTB hubs currently. All else being equal - same rim, same spokes/nipples ect, there is not a technical reason why one should see notably better durability/stiffness out of a straight pull vs a J-bend. Flange spacing (and equivalent spoke bracing angle) is not notably different. Interesting to hear you see such a difference.
3. First off, sorry to hear you had those experiences. It's obviously not the impression we want to make. Much of the negative e*thirteen rim reputation you see in the forums and comment sections is rooted in this old, low-end, high volume OEM spec. The combination of a fairly lightweight, lower-end 6061 alloy rim along with single-ply tires on bikes that often times ended up in the bike parks under younger and newer riders was not a good mix. In hindsight we certainly would have urged some of our OEM customers to spec heavier or higher end 6069 rims on those builds, spec dual ply tires or passed on the OEM spec. It's worth noting that while the low end OEM rim debacle was happening, our WC racers were typically breaking less of our carbon rims than any other mfg on the WC circuit at that time. As for your chainguide, I would need to get a better understanding of what generation guide you hand and a few other bits of info to provide a better answer. As a whole, our LG1 & Vario alloy/carbon backplate guides were/are quite reliable. Id be happy to chat via DM or phone if you want some more info.
4. Mondraker Factory - Dak Norton (He was on it last year also), Rónán Dunne, Ryan Pinkerton. Gwin Racing. Rémy Métailler. Intense Factory Racing - Joe Breeden, Louis Ferguson, Oscar Griffiths, Ryder Lawrence. NS United Ride.
Initial Impressions - Riding on a SJ Evo w Cascade Link, Float X, 18 degree setting.
1) It certainly does something. Others have said you feel like the bike rolls a little faster, and I agree with this.
2) The bike you put it on will have a big impact on how useful it really is. Obviously, the more kickback the bike has the more this product will matter.
3) I don't want to sound like a wet blanket, but most casual riders aren't going to notice a massive difference. I'll keep testing and reserve my right to change my opinion but its not a night and day type of change. That said, I do feel if you are a racer you'll likely want to look at adding something like this to your bike (again, depending on its pedal kickback properties). Where it felt most advantageous is when I was pushing hard and was riding near my limit, not noodling around at 80%.
4) I did not really notice the 18 degrees when pedaling around. That said, I'm coming off a dumpster low engagement hub, which IMO is a good "poor man's (part) solution" to this problem. Yes, at times you'll get kickback and other times you won't, depending on where the hub is when the suspension starts cycling but its notably better on this front than my fancier high engagement hubs. For what its worth, I made this switch part way through the summer and never felt the need to put the fancier hub back on...
5) I can't really comment on if it made my bike any quieter because my drivetrain is already mega quiet
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Great info and thanks for providing your input. I would add, that to me, my own SJEvo had incredibly smooth rear suspension with what I'd consider low kickback.
I like what E13 is doing here, but I've also noticed that Tarian (sp?) has a similar product as well but it's not adjustable. However, it's less money and weight and they can machine different engagements in, when ordering.
Next time I need wheels, it'll be for the e-bike and I'll almost certainly go with the E13 wheels. But I think for a pedal bike usage, I'd probably look really hard at the Tarian Shogun silent hub machined to give just 10' as that seems like a great compromise for a bike that needs to be pedaled.
Either way, I'm not jumping on this quickly, I'm going to see how it all shakes out.
I'm struggling with this, and need some help please!
Firstly the statement that "There is an average of 7% more time spent in the 11%-70% travel ranges". If the shock spends more time (as a percentage) in those areas then it must spend less time elsewhere, because the percentage must always add up to 100. But if you look at the chart then there's only one point (0-10) where it spends less time, and the difference is not of sufficient magnitude to make up for the gains elsewhere.
Part of that is because although they refer to "7%", the chart presents 'Time in travel range (secs)' - that's absolute time, not percentage of time. So if you total up the data points it looks to me like the Sidekick was run for longer than the standard hub (eyeballing a chart on the internet readout: 206 secs vs. 175 secs). So if the standard hub didn't get run for as long, how do we know that the missing 31 seconds wouldn't have been in the mid-travel ranges and therefore give exactly the same results as the Sidekick?
This also seems a very short sample period - less than 3 1/2 minutes. I appreciate it's about the same length as a 'typical' DH run, but don't forget this is the total time presented on this chart. You'd never trust someone who based their headline claims for a product like this on data from a single run. What kind of terrain/bike was it? Is it just a demonstrative example of a single run, i.e. they have hundreds of similar but slightly different graphs for multiple runs on different bikes and different locations? If so, why not label it accordingly? Or is this some kind of averaged data that just isn't labelled as such?
I'd really like to see this presented as a column chart for percentage of time, with each travel range having a separate column for each hub (i.e. a grouped bar chart, or double bar chart). And a note to say the total sample time, in seconds, that each shock had.
Also, is this even a good metric? The statement is that "It's easy to see that the rear end of the bike is more active" but they're measuring where the shock is in the travel, not whether it's moving or not. It could spend a good portion of its time in the 31-40% range and you wouldn't know whether it was sliding freely between 31% and 40%, or just stuck at 37% (hyperbole for demonstration purposes). Would it be better to measure the total time or number of instances, that the shock was static for more than <x> ms? If the Sidekick (or o-chain etc.) makes the shock more active then it would have less of that dead time / fewer instances. Or measure the number of times it moves between travel ranges, and even make the ranges smaller for better fidelity; more active shock = more transitions from one travel range to another?
The statement "we saw a cumulative increase of up to 44% in time spent across the 11%-70% travel ranges" suggests that staying in the mid-travel ranges is good, but I'm not sure I follow why a device that reduces pedal kickback / frees up suspension should lead to an increase in the amount of time you stay in the middle of travel, rather than just increasing movement at all points throughout the entire travel range?
I should point out that I'm not saying I don't believe e13, and I'm actually quite interested in trying/buying a Sidekick. I'm just not convinced this chart helps. But I am entirely open to the possibility that I have missed something obvious or misunderstood! 😆
I get what you are saying, I don’t have an answer. But maybe that test isn’t the best to sell the hub device, but just showing consumers that there is a change. I’ve been messing about with accelerometers on my bike and working through what is useful information and what isn’t. Sometimes there’s just data that shows, “yes there was a difference”.
I guess we don’t know enough information about the test.
My "quick thoughts" (lol) video review on the hub after ~20 or so rides.
Love the vid and your explanations. I also had to take the hub apart and fiddle with the mechanism to figure out how it works. Based on 5 rides so far, I pretty much agree with everything you said. Now for the long-term beatdown test.
At 7:00 minutes into the video, I was reminded of another Fabien Barel quote that isn't real because I just made it up: "Hyperbole, not accuracy."
That reminds me of another great quote:
"Never let truth get in the way of a good story." - Fabien Barel (probably...or someone like that)
HAHAHAHAHA.
Nice review, Jeff.
As you mentioned, you probably would have seen an even bigger impact if you were on a faster engaging hub to start (or different frame). Without a doubt, there are a lot of variables even beyond that frame and hub engagement speed (some of which you touched on). We'd be curious about your impression after doing some back-to-back runs with a faster engaging hub and if that changed anything. Either way, we're glad you like it!
@TEAMROBOT - Fair point about Fabian Barel. We should keep in context that he is a consummate racer through and through and was/is well known for his obsession with marginal gains. Indeed that was a statement he made after riding Sidekick and not one we spoon fed him.
Liked your suggestion and I'm reaching out to Vital people to see if we can scrounge up a fast engaging 29" wheel I could borrow for comparison tests. And by "borrow," I mean murder on back-to-back rocky Laguna runs.
You have a DT 350 as a base otherwise? Aliexpress 60t ratchet?
Your point about just testing the potential affects by removing your chain, is just, common sense.
And I did just that unintentionally sometime back. I could feel a difference, but it wasn't game changing or anything.
How much of the improvement can be had, just by running the STFU chain control device without the penalties of the deadband on a bike?
If I was in the market for a set of new e-bike wheels, I'd almost certainly purchase the new E13 wheels. As it is, it's likely going to be a couple of years.
E13 guys: How much of the improved ride quality do you think has come from the Sidekick hub vs. from the new compliant rim layups?
Things that I'd like to see: 1) e-bike motors having deadband built right into the motor so no need for fancy hubs, 2) Bikes running lower anti-squat then using the Fox Neo electronic shocks to control unwanted suspension movement so no fancy hubs needed.
@Suns_PSD The Flux rims are very nice and certainly add compliance to the package, but the Sidekick hub is where the real nifty stuff is happening.
Lower antisquat is something that can be handled by the likes of Neo or Flight Attendant, but there's also a problem - you're going to make a shitty experience on lower specced bikes where electronics are not an option. Deadband in the hub motor is also not the easiest thing to do as a deadband motor will slam into the clutch harder than with a one-way/sprag clutch that is mostly used today, causing much higher loads in the transmission of the motor and probably causing even more failures.
FWIW, Jeff's video, I was surprised at the side to side movement of the chain on the top branch of it.
would this cure the motor rattle on a shimano ep8?
the backlash on the gears (caused by tugging of the chain) is what causes the noise IMO.
In out testing experience with that motor, it does help minimize the noise but does not make it go away all together.
I've been wondering if the new Bosch CX motor does exactly what you asked for, in terms of building in free movement of the chainring, although I haven't seen any of the reviewers directly address this. All they're saying is that the new motor "decouples" the inner gears from the outer gears, so that you don't get the dreaded clutch rattle, but I can't tell what exactly happens when the top stretch of chain gets yanked on (ie. does the ring spin backward freely?). It seems like it must, or else when it catches it would cause the rattle due to the clutch engaging.
Hey y'all, there's a great visual of the Sidekick internals in this month's Vital gear show. The relevant part is at 6:37 in. Super helpful for me as I've been continutally confused trying to figure out exactly how it works. Based on this video, it's never truly "a freecoaster," instead it seems like the hub transforms from a 1-pawl hub to a normal 3-pawl hub once the red magic floating ninja star engages. And it wouldn't become a 4-pawl hub, because according to ethirteen the pusher pawl on the floating red ninja star pusher plate never bears any drivetrain load. Knowing that ultra low rolling resistance was one of ethirteen's goals for the Sidekick, it's also possible the pawl on the floating red ninja star has a lighter spring too, to reduce drag. Okay forum, tell me why my I'm wrong.
It's not a one pawl hub as the pawl on the red ninja star is there to stop the ninja star just for the three-pawl-carrier to rotate relative to it, for the ramps on the ninja stars to push the three actually driving pawl up into the ratchet ring and start bearing the load.
As long as there is no engagement between the ratchet ring and the three pawls, it's in freecoaster mode. The fourth pawl is the fixator for the 'main-pawl' engager thingie. That's exactly what gives you the float.
I have the Tairin silent shogun hubs on my Norco Range - not sure how much they helped though to be honest with Range being an HP design. I do enjoy them being quiet though.
UR Team testing the Sidekick in Morzine (I'm guessing during last summer). Maybe a bit surface level/not to much learned from their impressions, but still interesting.
Thanks to everyone who has ridden these hubs for sharing their experiences. I think Jeff's take makes sense, and I'm not a racer. However, it looked like Jeff clips in. I ride flats. For the non-racer, I'm wondering if the value proposition of these hubs is markedly different depending on whether you ride flats or clip in, and if the experience of one camp is all that relevant to the other. I'd also be using them on an enduro bike at the likes of Pisgah and Windrock, so proper steep, natural trails with lots of roots and rocks.
Now that this hub has been out for a minute, bumping this thread to see if anyone has addition mid-term thoughts, and whether your clip in or ride flats. Thanks in advance!
I clip in but ride the same trails as you, and I would 100% recommend the hub (or an Ochain) for you especially on flats. The free-feeling suspension and greatly reduced PKB is pretty noticeable on our chunkier, relatively slower trails with moments of speed and smashing. I would expect a rider on flats to have even more positives as your feet should want to stay more glued to the pedals through rough sections of trail. Downside is that both solutions can be a little cumbersome in the slower, more techy trails needing short and fast ratchets of the pedals to maintain momentum or punch up over a root or rock, but you do get used to it. 9/10 would recommend.
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