Not sure if xc/down country or whatever it’s called is a forbidden subject on here but thought I’d ask the question as it is gravity related...
Not sure if xc/down country or whatever it’s called is a forbidden subject on here but thought I’d ask the question as it is gravity related. I’ve ridden bikes for 30 years give or take, for a good 20 years it was solely downhill racing and riding, then I discovered trail bikes and pedalling uphill so for the last decade I have pretty much been doing the enduro thing, currently running a nomad v6 as the only bike I have and love the thing for the gnarlier stuff but lately I have been noticing lots more trails which I don’t ride anymore as they aren’t fun on the nomad and just thinking maybe something like the new epic evo 8 from spesh would make them fun. I have loads of trail riding locally mostly it is quite rooty and a bit rocky but some of it not so steep. Just really wanting to ask other gravity orientated riders if they ride bikes like the epic and there still capable? I don’t want to go out and take it really easy but accept that it’s not going to go as well as my nomad, I have always loved a good all day mission in the saddle and the older I have got the harder that has started to feel on a big enduro bike. Maybe a bike like the epic evo 8 would scratch this itch and still leave me smiling on the way down? Any input much appreciated
It's absolutely all about how the short travel bike makes a lot of trails more FUN - the shorter travel and steeper HA combine to keep...
It's absolutely all about how the short travel bike makes a lot of trails more FUN - the shorter travel and steeper HA combine to keep the wheelbase in check, IMO this is one of the key aspects that help these bikes carry so much more speed on anything but the steepest/gnarliest trails. Longer missions become so much more enjoyable as well, it might not feel like much when you pick the two bikes up side by side, but over the course of a long day of pedaling the reduced weight and general ease of moving around of the lighter bike will add up to a lot of energy saved. Since you already have a big bike for the burly stuff, definitely go for something at the sharp end of the spectrum. Don't fall into the trap of either overbuilding whatever "downcountry" bike you end up choosing, or trying to make your Nomad lighter with wheels and tires or whatever.
Case in point, here's a YT IZZO I built up which was subsequently high-jacked by my 20-yr old son who refuses to give it back. He has a big enduro bike as well, and he shreds pretty hard, yet he'll pick the IZZO for 90% of our rides. He says he can't get enough of how much more playful and fun it is, and even though he'll sometimes admit to getting in over his head on rougher trails, he prefers that. It's got a 130 mm fork on there, I asked if he wanted to bump it up to 140 to which he replied, and I quote, "don't you dare touch it".
This is very similar to my Uncaged 11 Izzo. I got rid of my Intense SniperXC for the Izzo. With light tires and wheels the Izzo is big XC bike that jumps.
I sometimes think about a true XC race bike again but then remember the flex and geometry when the trail gets rowdy and lean back toward the Izzo.
For more Rowdy enduro trails I have a Giant Trance X E+ as well as a YT Decoy MX... I don't think the YT gives up a whole lot to those until you get to almost true DH trails.
@Craig_Nelson I'll agree with some others that the chunkier your terrain, the more something with an extra pivot or two might be better than a flex...
@Craig_Nelson I'll agree with some others that the chunkier your terrain, the more something with an extra pivot or two might be better than a flex stay. I have a Spur set up 140/120 with Ass/DHR2, and it's amazing until I start getting into rougher terrain, at which point I can feel every hit in my old ankles. The geo works great for steeper descents. I've been on the fence for ages about going to a Smuggler. My park/shuttle bike is a Dreadnought, which is complete overkill for the XC-ish stuff that I use the Spur for. I have one local trail that almost needs two bikes - the Spur for the climb and the Dread for the descent. I always ride it on the Spur and deal with the joint pain later.
I agree with everything in Jeff Brines' Spur review video.
It's just one data point but I had a WW Spur and swapped over most of the build to a Smuggler frame and the Smuggler is considerably faster everywhere. Even on more mellow trails. And that's after I had to 'up' the tires a bit on the (edited) Smuggler to better match its capabilities.
For me, it was a very positive change. Although I had some really fun rides during my 2 years on the Spur, I never really gelled with it. Really, I found it to pedal bob too much, not absorb chatter well enough, and struggle with front end grip (size L). The Smuggler improved immensely on all of these issues, with just a 1.5# weight penalty or so even with some more capable parts installed.
I appreciate this discussion, as I often see a focus on DH performance being more important than everything else discussed on Vital. I ride bikes for the up and down, not just the down. Finding the balanced 1-bike is defiantly difficult and I feel like even the more middle ground bikes (previous gen bronson) have just got too long and too DH focused that they arent as playful on anything but gnar.
I've been thinking alot lately about building up a smaller bike. Optic, Izzo, Smuggler, Tallboy are all on my list. My daily driver is a Spesh Enduro right now, and like many of you indicated I think I would start riding the smaller bike for a good 60% of the rides once I get one haha
It's just one data point but I had a WW Spur and swapped over most of the build to a Smuggler frame and the Smuggler is...
It's just one data point but I had a WW Spur and swapped over most of the build to a Smuggler frame and the Smuggler is considerably faster everywhere. Even on more mellow trails. And that's after I had to 'up' the tires a bit on the (edited) Smuggler to better match its capabilities.
For me, it was a very positive change. Although I had some really fun rides during my 2 years on the Spur, I never really gelled with it. Really, I found it to pedal bob too much, not absorb chatter well enough, and struggle with front end grip (size L). The Smuggler improved immensely on all of these issues, with just a 1.5# weight penalty or so even with some more capable parts installed.
This is not what my credit card needed to hear. Still, thanks for the insight.
It's absolutely all about how the short travel bike makes a lot of trails more FUN - the shorter travel and steeper HA combine to keep...
It's absolutely all about how the short travel bike makes a lot of trails more FUN - the shorter travel and steeper HA combine to keep the wheelbase in check, IMO this is one of the key aspects that help these bikes carry so much more speed on anything but the steepest/gnarliest trails. Longer missions become so much more enjoyable as well, it might not feel like much when you pick the two bikes up side by side, but over the course of a long day of pedaling the reduced weight and general ease of moving around of the lighter bike will add up to a lot of energy saved. Since you already have a big bike for the burly stuff, definitely go for something at the sharp end of the spectrum. Don't fall into the trap of either overbuilding whatever "downcountry" bike you end up choosing, or trying to make your Nomad lighter with wheels and tires or whatever.
Case in point, here's a YT IZZO I built up which was subsequently high-jacked by my 20-yr old son who refuses to give it back. He has a big enduro bike as well, and he shreds pretty hard, yet he'll pick the IZZO for 90% of our rides. He says he can't get enough of how much more playful and fun it is, and even though he'll sometimes admit to getting in over his head on rougher trails, he prefers that. It's got a 130 mm fork on there, I asked if he wanted to bump it up to 140 to which he replied, and I quote, "don't you dare touch it".
This is what I feel, I have always loved my all day missions and on a 35/36lb bike with dh tyres and a coil shock it’s perfectly fine but I imagine a bike that is even 20% more efficient would make a massive difference at the end of 8/10 hours on the bike.
I may never part with my V1 Hightower. It was enduro, but XC geo came around to match it over the years. I just need to invest in some lighter wheels and tires.
I've been thinking alot lately about building up a smaller bike. Optic, Izzo, Smuggler, Tallboy are all on my list. My daily driver is a Spesh...
I've been thinking alot lately about building up a smaller bike. Optic, Izzo, Smuggler, Tallboy are all on my list. My daily driver is a Spesh Enduro right now, and like many of you indicated I think I would start riding the smaller bike for a good 60% of the rides once I get one haha
All good options. The Tallboy is a really fun bike, it felt way more energetic and precise than my Hightower, BUT the weight difference between the two was negligible. Weight isn’t everything but I expected a bigger difference between the two. TBH, the weight was what kept me from going with a Tallboy when I was looking to replace the Hightower.
What SC has done to the 5010 and Bronson seems unforgivable lol. Also in regards to the changes they made... What the hell are they gonna do with the Nomad now? Take all the longer lower n slacker elements and now add STACKIER just to balance the bike so it makes more sense and you don't have to run Stak Dak bars
The previous gen of those bikes was so good. Arguably most previous gen, basically the first iterations of lower VPP, SCs were damn near perfect bikes.And while the stack is semi-appreciated, it seems it's partly only to balance how oversized those bikes are now.
Again, LOVE what Norco did with the Optic and Sight... All while keeping the more 'reasonable' Fluid in the line up. Such a good model range imo
What SC has done to the 5010 and Bronson seems unforgivable lol. Also in regards to the changes they made... What the hell are they gonna...
What SC has done to the 5010 and Bronson seems unforgivable lol. Also in regards to the changes they made... What the hell are they gonna do with the Nomad now? Take all the longer lower n slacker elements and now add STACKIER just to balance the bike so it makes more sense and you don't have to run Stak Dak bars
The previous gen of those bikes was so good. Arguably most previous gen, basically the first iterations of lower VPP, SCs were damn near perfect bikes.And while the stack is semi-appreciated, it seems it's partly only to balance how oversized those bikes are now.
Again, LOVE what Norco did with the Optic and Sight... All while keeping the more 'reasonable' Fluid in the line up. Such a good model range imo
I had all three generations of the Hightower and v2 was my favorite and the only one I regret getting rid of. I had that bike for 3-4 years which is a long time for me and had it soooo dialed for my preferences. The v3 felt like it had more pep when on the pedals but it was noticeably longer, bordering on too long for my tastes.
What SC has done to the 5010 and Bronson seems unforgivable lol. Also in regards to the changes they made... What the hell are they gonna...
What SC has done to the 5010 and Bronson seems unforgivable lol. Also in regards to the changes they made... What the hell are they gonna do with the Nomad now? Take all the longer lower n slacker elements and now add STACKIER just to balance the bike so it makes more sense and you don't have to run Stak Dak bars
The previous gen of those bikes was so good. Arguably most previous gen, basically the first iterations of lower VPP, SCs were damn near perfect bikes.And while the stack is semi-appreciated, it seems it's partly only to balance how oversized those bikes are now.
Again, LOVE what Norco did with the Optic and Sight... All while keeping the more 'reasonable' Fluid in the line up. Such a good model range imo
I had all three generations of the Hightower and v2 was my favorite and the only one I regret getting rid of. I had that bike...
I had all three generations of the Hightower and v2 was my favorite and the only one I regret getting rid of. I had that bike for 3-4 years which is a long time for me and had it soooo dialed for my preferences. The v3 felt like it had more pep when on the pedals but it was noticeably longer, bordering on too long for my tastes.
Basically what happened to me with my Konas, except I didn't get arguably the best generation. Had a 2016 Process 153. Loved it. Only thing that kinda bothered me was seat tube angle was iffy and being an old bike dealing with old parts standards was annoying at times. Would have LOVED like a 2018-2020 model... Ended up buying a 2023 type 135 and... I basically regret it. Especially since I sold the 2016 to afford it. Still an okay bike but just stretched too much in almost every direction.
And now with the industry changing I have NO idea what to get if I can't find an older bike I like online. Kinda crossing my fingers on new alloy Stumpy models being... NOT sram sx and xfusion (but we all know dont we lol)
I bought a banshee phantom, built at 140/115 when I left west coast bc (sold my enduro bike). The trails where I live now don’t warrant a big bike. Irony is, I tend to ride more in BC than where I live now. The phantom has absolutely blown my expectations out of the water. Handles rough trails incredibly well. As others have commenced, tirespec makes a big difference. The bike will get unsettled if pushed too hard, but it makes up for it on the more flowy trails. I usually change bikes every few years, but I will be keeping my phantom and buying a big bike to compliment it when I move back to bc
Yes, the little bike is a major improvement in fun on appropriate trails. Around where I live, enduro bike is still more appropriate and fun on any black diamond trails (most have stunts and gnar) or for racing proper enduros, but there are also mellower X/C trail centres which are a blast on a 120 bike.
I find the 120 bike is limited by tires (which is fine... point of the bike is to roll super duper fast on sketchier X/C tires), fork (Fox 34 Stepcast GRIP, very mediocre. Should stick a Pike on it), and the 2 pot Shimano brakes and 180/160 rotors that came with it. I'm 190lbs, so the brakes will eventually go up to larger rotors or 4 pots. The little, cheaper X/C tires are remarkably capable in the "blue square" trail genre they're designed for. Have no desire to stick DHF/Rs or anything like that on a small bike. It defeats the purpose.
This is very similar to my Uncaged 11 Izzo. I got rid of my Intense SniperXC for the Izzo. With light tires and wheels the Izzo is big XC bike that jumps.
I sometimes think about a true XC race bike again but then remember the flex and geometry when the trail gets rowdy and lean back toward the Izzo.
For more Rowdy enduro trails I have a Giant Trance X E+ as well as a YT Decoy MX... I don't think the YT gives up a whole lot to those until you get to almost true DH trails.
It's just one data point but I had a WW Spur and swapped over most of the build to a Smuggler frame and the Smuggler is considerably faster everywhere. Even on more mellow trails. And that's after I had to 'up' the tires a bit on the (edited) Smuggler to better match its capabilities.
For me, it was a very positive change. Although I had some really fun rides during my 2 years on the Spur, I never really gelled with it. Really, I found it to pedal bob too much, not absorb chatter well enough, and struggle with front end grip (size L). The Smuggler improved immensely on all of these issues, with just a 1.5# weight penalty or so even with some more capable parts installed.
I appreciate this discussion, as I often see a focus on DH performance being more important than everything else discussed on Vital. I ride bikes for the up and down, not just the down. Finding the balanced 1-bike is defiantly difficult and I feel like even the more middle ground bikes (previous gen bronson) have just got too long and too DH focused that they arent as playful on anything but gnar.
I've been thinking alot lately about building up a smaller bike. Optic, Izzo, Smuggler, Tallboy are all on my list. My daily driver is a Spesh Enduro right now, and like many of you indicated I think I would start riding the smaller bike for a good 60% of the rides once I get one haha
This is not what my credit card needed to hear. Still, thanks for the insight.
This is what I feel, I have always loved my all day missions and on a 35/36lb bike with dh tyres and a coil shock it’s perfectly fine but I imagine a bike that is even 20% more efficient would make a massive difference at the end of 8/10 hours on the bike.
I may never part with my V1 Hightower. It was enduro, but XC geo came around to match it over the years. I just need to invest in some lighter wheels and tires.
All good options. The Tallboy is a really fun bike, it felt way more energetic and precise than my Hightower, BUT the weight difference between the two was negligible. Weight isn’t everything but I expected a bigger difference between the two. TBH, the weight was what kept me from going with a Tallboy when I was looking to replace the Hightower.
What SC has done to the 5010 and Bronson seems unforgivable lol. Also in regards to the changes they made... What the hell are they gonna do with the Nomad now? Take all the longer lower n slacker elements and now add STACKIER just to balance the bike so it makes more sense and you don't have to run Stak Dak bars
The previous gen of those bikes was so good. Arguably most previous gen, basically the first iterations of lower VPP, SCs were damn near perfect bikes.And while the stack is semi-appreciated, it seems it's partly only to balance how oversized those bikes are now.
Again, LOVE what Norco did with the Optic and Sight... All while keeping the more 'reasonable' Fluid in the line up. Such a good model range imo
I had all three generations of the Hightower and v2 was my favorite and the only one I regret getting rid of. I had that bike for 3-4 years which is a long time for me and had it soooo dialed for my preferences. The v3 felt like it had more pep when on the pedals but it was noticeably longer, bordering on too long for my tastes.
Basically what happened to me with my Konas, except I didn't get arguably the best generation. Had a 2016 Process 153. Loved it. Only thing that kinda bothered me was seat tube angle was iffy and being an old bike dealing with old parts standards was annoying at times. Would have LOVED like a 2018-2020 model... Ended up buying a 2023 type 135 and... I basically regret it. Especially since I sold the 2016 to afford it. Still an okay bike but just stretched too much in almost every direction.
And now with the industry changing I have NO idea what to get if I can't find an older bike I like online. Kinda crossing my fingers on new alloy Stumpy models being... NOT sram sx and xfusion (but we all know dont we lol)
I bought a banshee phantom, built at 140/115 when I left west coast bc (sold my enduro bike). The trails where I live now don’t warrant a big bike.
Irony is, I tend to ride more in BC than where I live now. The phantom has absolutely blown my expectations out of the water. Handles rough trails incredibly well. As others have commenced, tirespec makes a big difference. The bike will get unsettled if pushed too hard, but it makes up for it on the more flowy trails. I usually change bikes every few years, but I will be keeping my phantom and buying a big bike to compliment it when I move back to bc
Better late than never!
https://youtu.be/t5TqWM47JVQ
Yes, the little bike is a major improvement in fun on appropriate trails. Around where I live, enduro bike is still more appropriate and fun on any black diamond trails (most have stunts and gnar) or for racing proper enduros, but there are also mellower X/C trail centres which are a blast on a 120 bike.
I find the 120 bike is limited by tires (which is fine... point of the bike is to roll super duper fast on sketchier X/C tires), fork (Fox 34 Stepcast GRIP, very mediocre. Should stick a Pike on it), and the 2 pot Shimano brakes and 180/160 rotors that came with it. I'm 190lbs, so the brakes will eventually go up to larger rotors or 4 pots. The little, cheaper X/C tires are remarkably capable in the "blue square" trail genre they're designed for. Have no desire to stick DHF/Rs or anything like that on a small bike. It defeats the purpose.
Post a reply to: Can we talk modern XC bike capability on here?