What's your best advice for tuning the suspension of a bike that's experiencing "excessive wallow?" Is that something cause by spring rate or low speed compression?
If money weren't an object, what upgrades or modifications would you make to your suspension to help it perform as best as possible?
Personal mechanic at the bottom to clean and rebuild it every single day.
Damper connected to my brain to sense fear or oxygen levels and adjust accordingly.
Stronger/lighter/stiffer using really expensive materials.
Compressed air tank to adjust spring pressures on the fly.
What's your best advice for tuning the suspension of a bike that's experiencing "excessive wallow?" Is that something cause by spring rate or low speed compression?
I always start with the spring- it's doing the majority of the work.
Is it an air spring? Does it have any volume adjustment? If so- you can try adding or subtracting volume spacers and see what happens. When I'm playing with volume spacers I'll start with a set sag (usually 30%) and do a short ride. Either add or subtract spacers(to eliminate wallow I'd try subtracting volume spacers and adding a little pressure), reset sag and do the same short ride. Take notes and evaluate. If it improved- subtract more and try again, if it got worse go the other way.
Adding a little low speed compression can also help with wallow- although a lot of air shocks only provide one or two settings and aren't super tune-able.
ever been to taiwan to oversee production of something? what was it like?
It's hard but extremely rewarding. The travel is tough for me- jetlag, opposite sleep schedule and weird food makes things hard, but it is very rewarding to see something you have designed roll off the production line. The people are super friendly and awesome to work with so it's all good.
Which shock tune do you recommend for the vivid air r2c on a giant glory advanced (2016) my bike came stock with a M/L tune and...
Which shock tune do you recommend for the vivid air r2c on a giant glory advanced (2016) my bike came stock with a M/L tune and it seems to go through the travel quite easily, even with oversprung by 50lbs. (i'm at a 450lb spring) I weight 180lbs and i'm an agressive rider trying to find faster lines and make mistakes haha
I did the math and seems like with a 2.66 to 1 ratio a medium compression tune "should" work.
if it should be a m/m why on earth was a m/l specced?
Also, whats the difference between the B1 (i had in 2014) B2 and B3 shocks?
Thanks Dave!
hi- sorry i missed this one...
The shock spec is up to frame manufacturers. It's not just average leverage rate. Leverage curve (through the travel), intended use, and product managers' preference all roll into selecting the spec. That being said- if you don't like the M/L an MM or MH might be the fix. Especially someone who is on the heavier side and pushing yourself- don't be afraid of bumping up a tune or a spring rate (or two or three)
I'm not up to speed on my Vivid revisions, so not really sure what changed in between the shocks.
do you have a preferred wheel size? what do you think about the whole +/plus thing now?
29 is working pretty well right now.
I think plus sized tires are great for beginner/intermediate riders. I rode a 27.5+ fast in Moab and it got scary really fast. Bounced all over the place.
[embed] https://youtu.be/Pk8V2be2B4M?rel=0 [/embed]
look what i found.
camp, i also want to know about gearbox stuff from sram. is it even a thought or just a...
look what i found.
camp, i also want to know about gearbox stuff from sram. is it even a thought or just a pipedream?
I know nothing about drivetrains. You'll have to Q&A a SRAM drivetrain guy from Germany.
Can you walk us through a general procedure step-by-step on how to setup and new fork and shock?
Like, after you get sag setup, do you move on to LSC or LSR next? When do you start playing with volume reducers? Is it a check list type thing w/ you that you follow every time or is it more of an on the fly kind of procedure?
Can you walk us through a general procedure step-by-step on how to setup and new fork and shock?
Like, after you get sag setup, do you...
Can you walk us through a general procedure step-by-step on how to setup and new fork and shock?
Like, after you get sag setup, do you move on to LSC or LSR next? When do you start playing with volume reducers? Is it a check list type thing w/ you that you follow every time or is it more of an on the fly kind of procedure?
Usually- I get super excited about new bike parts, throw it on the bike and go for a ride.
Then, when I'm less excited do the following:
-set sag
-parking lot set rebound (front and rear)
-set compression clickers in the middle (dial type adjuster) or open (lever type adjuster)
-go for a ride with shock pump
During the ride I'll watch my travel o-rings (one on the fork and one on the shock) and see how much travel I'm using. I'll make small air pressure adjustments on trail. If you smash bottom out a few times- you need more spring, progression or compression damping.
I try to keep sag constant and adjust how much travel I use by changing air volume with tokens or bands.
Once the air spring is set- then I move on to damping. Rebound can be set by starting open and adding a click or two until the bounciness goes away. If you start feeling harshness on successive hits (think braking bumps or rock-gardens) you've probably gone too slow. If the bike feels bouncy and out of control after a drop or g-out rebound is probably too fast.
Compression is probably the last adjustment I'll play with. Low speed compression damping can be used to tune out brake dive, pedal bob or maybe a wallowy feeling. Again- I start open and increase until the bike feels harsh, then back off a little.
The great thing about suspension adjustments is they are free and can improve the ride of your bike. Play with them- take notes and CHANGE ONLY ONE THING AT A TIME!!!
Nukeproof Mega owner (2013), would like to switch to the newest one. The LL tune surprises me, given the feel everyone keeps reporting. Is changing the tune a lengthy/pricey/tough process or is it something a bike shop can do?
Plus, I have Pike 2014, solo air. I weigh 74k(156 lbs, says google) with riding gear on, ride the bike fairly fast, though nothing to write home about. Right now I have 55 psi, 2 token, rebound rather fast, LSC 4 clicks from full open. Sag is at about 25%, the fork has a hard time giving me traction in some circumstances, particularly at slow speeds. At high speeds the fork works amazingly, even though full travel is used only in unexpected circumstances ( I have always 1/1.5 cms of travel left) What would you recommend to solve this traction issue? (I've started playing around with suspension only recently, so I'm a proper noob with that)
Nukeproof Mega owner (2013), would like to switch to the newest one. The LL tune surprises me, given the feel everyone keeps reporting. Is changing the...
Nukeproof Mega owner (2013), would like to switch to the newest one. The LL tune surprises me, given the feel everyone keeps reporting. Is changing the tune a lengthy/pricey/tough process or is it something a bike shop can do?
Plus, I have Pike 2014, solo air. I weigh 74k(156 lbs, says google) with riding gear on, ride the bike fairly fast, though nothing to write home about. Right now I have 55 psi, 2 token, rebound rather fast, LSC 4 clicks from full open. Sag is at about 25%, the fork has a hard time giving me traction in some circumstances, particularly at slow speeds. At high speeds the fork works amazingly, even though full travel is used only in unexpected circumstances ( I have always 1/1.5 cms of travel left) What would you recommend to solve this traction issue? (I've started playing around with suspension only recently, so I'm a proper noob with that)
Thanks, and cheers from Italy!
I think changing tune might be a little much for the average bike shop. There are certified service centers or aftermarket suspension tuners that might be better equipped to handle that. The LL tune can work really well on some bikes- I actually rode my Transition Patrol (same size shock, similar travel) with a L compression tune- it seemed to absorb high-speed impacts a little better with the lighter tune.
It sounds like you could remove a token or two- since you rarely use full travel. Try removing a token and setting the fork with the same sag- that could help you take advantage of the full stroke and might give more traction.
Hello Dave. I have a vivid R2C on a Transition Tr500 that has sort of a harsh top out when it rebounds. It's done it since day one, at first I thought it was a loose bolt or bushing because even off the bike, when you give it the slightest compression, there's a slight knock when it rebounds. Rebound adjustments don't fix it. It doesn't seem to have a big impact on my riding, but it's one of those things that gets in my head a bit. Does this sound normal?
Thanks for your time.
Hey Dave,
When are we going to start seeing magnetic suspension fluids and principles in shock designs?
seems to be the next step in suspension...
Also...
Hey Dave,
When are we going to start seeing magnetic suspension fluids and principles in shock designs?
seems to be the next step in suspension...
Also when is the vivid air getting a revamp so it will be more friendly for trail/enduro bikes. #X2killer
Finally, what's your shim stack in your fork and shock right now? Curious...
Thanks suspension wizard~
My understanding of magnetic fluid shocks is that they take a significant amount of electrical power to operate. This isn't an issue on a car or motorized vehicle, but on a bike you'd have to carry large batteries to make it happen. Also- I have heard the magnetic fluid is rather abrasive and doesn't play well with anodized aluminum parts... Most automotive suspension can use hardened chrome steel shafts and housings. Bike stuff is aluminum for light weight. Lots of issues for bike applications currently, but never say never.
Vivid=????
I'm currently running MM tune rear shock on an Evil Following and standard tune in the fork. Lots of tokens/bands in both to make it super rampy as this bike has a lot less travel than my Patrol did.
Hello Dave. I have a vivid R2C on a Transition Tr500 that has sort of a harsh top out when it rebounds. It's done it since...
Hello Dave. I have a vivid R2C on a Transition Tr500 that has sort of a harsh top out when it rebounds. It's done it since day one, at first I thought it was a loose bolt or bushing because even off the bike, when you give it the slightest compression, there's a slight knock when it rebounds. Rebound adjustments don't fix it. It doesn't seem to have a big impact on my riding, but it's one of those things that gets in my head a bit. Does this sound normal?
Thanks for your time.
It's normal- known issue that is being fixed. Hopefully it doesn't bother you too much
In the last few years there seems to have been quite an increase in manufacturing and assembly issues from both Rockshox, and SRAM as a whole. I bought a brand new DH sled this summer. Both the vivid shock and boxxer had to be warranted immediately. I've seen many issues with rapid stanchion wear caused by improper lower bushing alignment. I've heard from several of my EWS racer friends that SRAM has been changing their manufacturers, and using different factories to make the same parts, resulting in some parts coming together great, and others being grossly out of tolerance. I know as a design engineer, this is not your job; however, I was hoping you might have some insight into whether or not SRAM is making efforts to resolve these issues?
I also have some beef with the spec'ed oil volumes in Rockshox forks. I know it is a bit of a rat race to to have the lightest product in the industry, but 5cc = dry in a week of riding hot dusty Whistler this summer.
Sorry to get all aggro enginerdy on you, but you are in the hot seat.
Hi Dave,
In the last few years there seems to have been quite an increase in manufacturing and assembly issues from both Rockshox, and SRAM as...
Hi Dave,
In the last few years there seems to have been quite an increase in manufacturing and assembly issues from both Rockshox, and SRAM as a whole. I bought a brand new DH sled this summer. Both the vivid shock and boxxer had to be warranted immediately. I've seen many issues with rapid stanchion wear caused by improper lower bushing alignment. I've heard from several of my EWS racer friends that SRAM has been changing their manufacturers, and using different factories to make the same parts, resulting in some parts coming together great, and others being grossly out of tolerance. I know as a design engineer, this is not your job; however, I was hoping you might have some insight into whether or not SRAM is making efforts to resolve these issues?
I also have some beef with the spec'ed oil volumes in Rockshox forks. I know it is a bit of a rat race to to have the lightest product in the industry, but 5cc = dry in a week of riding hot dusty Whistler this summer.
Sorry to get all aggro enginerdy on you, but you are in the hot seat.
Cheers,
Cooper
No problem- I understand the frustration.
Yes SRAM is seriously focused on improving quality right now. The road hydro recall really brought the quality issues onto focus and since then there has significant effort put into improving quality. Obviously all our issues are not fixed and things can always be improved. Abnormal bushing wear is a finicky problem, but starting with PIKE the alignment of lowers has been dialed in. That sucks that your fork had issues- hopefully warranty got you sorted out OK.
We have only one factory that assembles suspension forks. Many suppliers provide the machined parts.
The low oil volume on fork damper side has to do with not sucking/pushing excess oil into the charger and bursting the bladder due to over-filling. Not due to weight. It's a fine line.
2) I'm curious when RS will be implementing GPS based valving programs. Particularly useful on Enduro-style courses where there are large and prevalent changes in particular terrain, as well as sizable demarcation regions between segments. I.e. Keystone's various trails linked into one race course. One could make segment-based profiles based on telemetry readings or rider feedback and have small robotic servo's handle the on-the-fly adjustments. Enter a segment based on GPS data (a la' strava) and have your suspension automatically handle adjustments based on your profile's call outs.
3) OT : We need to hit track soon. (Yes this is same Chooofoojoo from MT.net). Hopefully before Trubo. :party:
Dave,
1) Congrats on the forum hot-seat feature!
2) I'm curious when RS will be implementing GPS based valving programs. Particularly useful on Enduro-style courses where...
Dave,
1) Congrats on the forum hot-seat feature!
2) I'm curious when RS will be implementing GPS based valving programs. Particularly useful on Enduro-style courses where there are large and prevalent changes in particular terrain, as well as sizable demarcation regions between segments. I.e. Keystone's various trails linked into one race course. One could make segment-based profiles based on telemetry readings or rider feedback and have small robotic servo's handle the on-the-fly adjustments. Enter a segment based on GPS data (a la' strava) and have your suspension automatically handle adjustments based on your profile's call outs.
3) OT : We need to hit track soon. (Yes this is same Chooofoojoo from MT.net). Hopefully before Trubo. :party:
Thanks!
Oh man- I actually don't think this is too far off... With how powerful/easy phones have become to use I don't think it would be too hard to implement. We already custom make the Relay shock for Lappiere, so the hardware side of things is close. We'd need a bluetooth receiver to take commands from a phone app and send them to the shock to tell it what to do. Honestly- the technology all exists, it's just a matter of making it affordable, easy to use etc.
That said, I think real active suspension would likely be better than pre-programming based on the trail. You wouldn't have to think ahead and program based on the trail. You'd just ride and when the bike senses smooth terrain and hard pedaling- it stiffens up. When it senses rough terrrain it gets softer. etc.
I wonder if electronic suspension will get banned in bicycle racing like it did in F1?
For sure we need to get on track soon. Pueblo 2-1 November 30th?
Thanks!
Oh man- I actually don't think this is too far off... With how powerful/easy phones have become to use I don't think it would be...
Thanks!
Oh man- I actually don't think this is too far off... With how powerful/easy phones have become to use I don't think it would be too hard to implement. We already custom make the Relay shock for Lappiere, so the hardware side of things is close. We'd need a bluetooth receiver to take commands from a phone app and send them to the shock to tell it what to do. Honestly- the technology all exists, it's just a matter of making it affordable, easy to use etc.
That said, I think real active suspension would likely be better than pre-programming based on the trail. You wouldn't have to think ahead and program based on the trail. You'd just ride and when the bike senses smooth terrain and hard pedaling- it stiffens up. When it senses rough terrrain it gets softer. etc.
I wonder if electronic suspension will get banned in bicycle racing like it did in F1?
For sure we need to get on track soon. Pueblo 2-1 November 30th?
Hmmm. That's an interesting thought study, the parallels between F1 and cycling (UCI) sanctioning body's asinine technology restrictions.
Also, active suspension would be interesting. I'm not EE, but I would imagine the sensor pack required to cover the scope of bicycle kinematics would be a) too damn expensive and b) large and unwieldy. At least right now.
I'll check on Pueblo and get back to you. Finals is right around that time for me.
Damper connected to my brain to sense fear or oxygen levels and adjust accordingly.
Stronger/lighter/stiffer using really expensive materials.
Compressed air tank to adjust spring pressures on the fly.
Is it an air spring? Does it have any volume adjustment? If so- you can try adding or subtracting volume spacers and see what happens. When I'm playing with volume spacers I'll start with a set sag (usually 30%) and do a short ride. Either add or subtract spacers(to eliminate wallow I'd try subtracting volume spacers and adding a little pressure), reset sag and do the same short ride. Take notes and evaluate. If it improved- subtract more and try again, if it got worse go the other way.
Adding a little low speed compression can also help with wallow- although a lot of air shocks only provide one or two settings and aren't super tune-able.
look what i found.
camp, i also want to know about gearbox stuff from sram. is it even a thought or just a pipedream?
The shock spec is up to frame manufacturers. It's not just average leverage rate. Leverage curve (through the travel), intended use, and product managers' preference all roll into selecting the spec. That being said- if you don't like the M/L an MM or MH might be the fix. Especially someone who is on the heavier side and pushing yourself- don't be afraid of bumping up a tune or a spring rate (or two or three)
I'm not up to speed on my Vivid revisions, so not really sure what changed in between the shocks.
I think plus sized tires are great for beginner/intermediate riders. I rode a 27.5+ fast in Moab and it got scary really fast. Bounced all over the place.
Like, after you get sag setup, do you move on to LSC or LSR next? When do you start playing with volume reducers? Is it a check list type thing w/ you that you follow every time or is it more of an on the fly kind of procedure?
Then, when I'm less excited do the following:
-set sag
-parking lot set rebound (front and rear)
-set compression clickers in the middle (dial type adjuster) or open (lever type adjuster)
-go for a ride with shock pump
During the ride I'll watch my travel o-rings (one on the fork and one on the shock) and see how much travel I'm using. I'll make small air pressure adjustments on trail. If you smash bottom out a few times- you need more spring, progression or compression damping.
I try to keep sag constant and adjust how much travel I use by changing air volume with tokens or bands.
Once the air spring is set- then I move on to damping. Rebound can be set by starting open and adding a click or two until the bounciness goes away. If you start feeling harshness on successive hits (think braking bumps or rock-gardens) you've probably gone too slow. If the bike feels bouncy and out of control after a drop or g-out rebound is probably too fast.
Compression is probably the last adjustment I'll play with. Low speed compression damping can be used to tune out brake dive, pedal bob or maybe a wallowy feeling. Again- I start open and increase until the bike feels harsh, then back off a little.
The great thing about suspension adjustments is they are free and can improve the ride of your bike. Play with them- take notes and CHANGE ONLY ONE THING AT A TIME!!!
https://youtu.be/8Cs5O0PEnYs
Plus, I have Pike 2014, solo air. I weigh 74k(156 lbs, says google) with riding gear on, ride the bike fairly fast, though nothing to write home about. Right now I have 55 psi, 2 token, rebound rather fast, LSC 4 clicks from full open. Sag is at about 25%, the fork has a hard time giving me traction in some circumstances, particularly at slow speeds. At high speeds the fork works amazingly, even though full travel is used only in unexpected circumstances ( I have always 1/1.5 cms of travel left) What would you recommend to solve this traction issue? (I've started playing around with suspension only recently, so I'm a proper noob with that)
Thanks, and cheers from Italy!
When are we going to start seeing magnetic suspension fluids and principles in shock designs?
seems to be the next step in suspension...
Also when is the vivid air getting a revamp so it will be more friendly for trail/enduro bikes. #X2killer
Finally, what's your shim stack in your fork and shock right now? Curious...
Thanks suspension wizard~
It sounds like you could remove a token or two- since you rarely use full travel. Try removing a token and setting the fork with the same sag- that could help you take advantage of the full stroke and might give more traction.
Thanks for your time.
Vivid=????
I'm currently running MM tune rear shock on an Evil Following and standard tune in the fork. Lots of tokens/bands in both to make it super rampy as this bike has a lot less travel than my Patrol did.
In the last few years there seems to have been quite an increase in manufacturing and assembly issues from both Rockshox, and SRAM as a whole. I bought a brand new DH sled this summer. Both the vivid shock and boxxer had to be warranted immediately. I've seen many issues with rapid stanchion wear caused by improper lower bushing alignment. I've heard from several of my EWS racer friends that SRAM has been changing their manufacturers, and using different factories to make the same parts, resulting in some parts coming together great, and others being grossly out of tolerance. I know as a design engineer, this is not your job; however, I was hoping you might have some insight into whether or not SRAM is making efforts to resolve these issues?
I also have some beef with the spec'ed oil volumes in Rockshox forks. I know it is a bit of a rat race to to have the lightest product in the industry, but 5cc = dry in a week of riding hot dusty Whistler this summer.
Sorry to get all aggro enginerdy on you, but you are in the hot seat.
Cheers,
Cooper
Yes SRAM is seriously focused on improving quality right now. The road hydro recall really brought the quality issues onto focus and since then there has significant effort put into improving quality. Obviously all our issues are not fixed and things can always be improved. Abnormal bushing wear is a finicky problem, but starting with PIKE the alignment of lowers has been dialed in. That sucks that your fork had issues- hopefully warranty got you sorted out OK.
We have only one factory that assembles suspension forks. Many suppliers provide the machined parts.
The low oil volume on fork damper side has to do with not sucking/pushing excess oil into the charger and bursting the bladder due to over-filling. Not due to weight. It's a fine line.
Whistler is so hard on stuff. We are trying.
1) Congrats on the forum hot-seat feature!
2) I'm curious when RS will be implementing GPS based valving programs. Particularly useful on Enduro-style courses where there are large and prevalent changes in particular terrain, as well as sizable demarcation regions between segments. I.e. Keystone's various trails linked into one race course. One could make segment-based profiles based on telemetry readings or rider feedback and have small robotic servo's handle the on-the-fly adjustments. Enter a segment based on GPS data (a la' strava) and have your suspension automatically handle adjustments based on your profile's call outs.
3) OT : We need to hit track soon. (Yes this is same Chooofoojoo from MT.net). Hopefully before Trubo. :party:
Oh man- I actually don't think this is too far off... With how powerful/easy phones have become to use I don't think it would be too hard to implement. We already custom make the Relay shock for Lappiere, so the hardware side of things is close. We'd need a bluetooth receiver to take commands from a phone app and send them to the shock to tell it what to do. Honestly- the technology all exists, it's just a matter of making it affordable, easy to use etc.
That said, I think real active suspension would likely be better than pre-programming based on the trail. You wouldn't have to think ahead and program based on the trail. You'd just ride and when the bike senses smooth terrain and hard pedaling- it stiffens up. When it senses rough terrrain it gets softer. etc.
I wonder if electronic suspension will get banned in bicycle racing like it did in F1?
For sure we need to get on track soon. Pueblo 2-1 November 30th?
Also, active suspension would be interesting. I'm not EE, but I would imagine the sensor pack required to cover the scope of bicycle kinematics would be a) too damn expensive and b) large and unwieldy. At least right now.
I'll check on Pueblo and get back to you. Finals is right around that time for me.
are there any plans to add remote lock on option on a monarch rt3/plus rc3 or a vivid air ? seems like a very
logical add on for today's bikes/tracks.
thanks !
Post a reply to: Forum Hot Seat - Dave Camp, RockShox Design Engineer