Whatever the case may be, it seems most DH tracks these days need to be more technical, considering the recent boom of the slack, gravity-oriented 160-170mm Enduro bike.
In my country, there are very few DH tracks where a trail bike, in the right hands, cannot set a top 5 time in the pro/elite category.
For my riding style, coming from BMX/DJ background, a 27,5 trail bike with an enduro build kit suits me best (160 front/140 rear). Local terrain with small elevation combined with very technical (flat) sections favor a bike that gives good feedback from the ground and is efficient to pump. And of course a good pedaling platform is a plus as well. Afterwork corner sessions at the woods, weekend bike park rides or an all-day epic are all splendid fun on a rig like that.
I did have an 160mm enduro bike, but ended up getting rid of for the reasons above. If I was a die hard racer or lived somewhere with actual mountains, I'd no doubt go with a bigger and burlier machine. But to be honest, the trail bike's livelier ride just makes me feel like a better rider..
Everyone's different and i'm sure for many one bikes enough. I on the other hand love having options, currently own a onone 140mm 29" trail bike, tranny patrol 160mm 650b duro, cube fritzz 180mm 650b super enduro, and a spech demo 26" dh bike and all get used. Thankfully in south wales we have a diverse range of terrain so that each bike does shine for its intended purpose.
I could get away with just having the Tranny but for me it would take away some of the fun of pushing the limits of the trail bike and the security of the bigger bikes on lift days.
P.S. one of the bikes is nearly always broken, i tend to ride hard and often. A single bike would get battered very quickly!
I use intense Uzzi as do it all bike, actually, modern ling travel bikes have awesome geometry comparing to the short travel bikes, that's the only reason, why I choose 180mm of travel, however 150mm I assume will be enough for most cases;
Now that I've owned a really good DH bike (V10), it would be really hard to go back to just one bike. My Spartan is extremely capable (and overkill for my local trails), but it's just not as confidence inspiring on serious DH tracks as the V10. Riding a true DH bike at ridiculous speeds will help take your game to the next level...and I just can't stomach being a slower rider. Also, dirt jump or BMX bike is a must have!
I think it's interesting to compare to other sports too. For example I've had one set of "Do it all" skis for a long time. And they where truly master of none, but most important they weren't really fun anywhere and I could feel it (even without testing other skis).
And then I went to specific slope/race skis and freeride skis, and I don't ever see myself going back.
On the other hand, when it comes to biking (also I might be a better skier than biker), I really enjoy my enduro bike on various type of terrains: my regular trails are mostly mellow (with some sweet technical spots or jumps) and yet I have a lot of fun, I also rode true bikepark stuff and had fun, I went for a multi-day trip through the alps and had fun, I rode some pretty techy stuff where a downhill wouldn't be out of place and still had fun, and so on...
So yeah I'm a big believer of enduro bike (or whatever you're naming them) as the one to rule them all, not because it can be as efficient as a XC and a DH bikes (it can't), but because you can have fun riding one on everything from XC loops to DH tracks.
And that's not the case in other sports (like skiing).
Nailed it. I am a big believer in having "the right tool for the job".
That said, mountain bikes are expensive and an enduro bike is...
Nailed it. I am a big believer in having "the right tool for the job".
That said, mountain bikes are expensive and an enduro bike is no doubt the best jack of all trades if you can only have one bike.
If the "job" is to have the utmost confidence when plunging down some DH course or in fact be competitive in a DH race (Sam Hill's abilities notwithstanding) then the right "tool" is a DH bike. Otherwise, modern trail/enduro/all mountain (or whatever the couture marketing term of the day is) provide a tool that will be capable for the vast majority of riders out there. Bikes have become incredibly more capable in a very short period of time. At the onset of the 2000's riders in BC where still riding heavy long travel freeride tanks and DH sleds everywhere. Nowadays trail/enduro bikes are de riguer. Bottom line, ride whatever turns you on.
When Sam Hill can place 6th at the worlds on an enduro bike, nobody needs a downhill bike for recreational riding.
Having said that, Hafjell is 4 hours from me and that track is brutal. Yes an Enduro bike will get down it quick enough, but nothing beats the feeling of ploughing through a bunch of huge, square edge rocks on a bike that is built exactly for the job.
In the end it really depends on the terrain that you ride. If you have a DH track on your doorstep it's probably worth the investment. If it's pretty tame where you live, sometimes even an enduro bike can be too much bike.
Yeah I'm also moving closer to the 1bike camp.
I think the modern Enduro bike has really eaten into DH bike sales and even race entries.
And I don't think I'm alone in saying that I kinda resent having an expensive and rapidly devaluing DH bike hung up in the cellar, when we're now constantly questioning whether it serves any purpose at all.
I'm a fairly mature (ahem, old) rider these days at 37 and I've been a mountain biker for at least the last 20 years.
Last summer was the first ever, where I went on the usual Alpine road trip and didn't take a dedicated DH bike - and it's simply because I no longer own one. I took a brand new Nicolai G16 instead (so new that the welds were barely cold!) and that holiday for me was the final nail in the coffin for DH bike ownership. I did wonder if I'd miss it, if I'd ride round that jump, if I'd pass on the 18th dusk-run from the chairlift from exhaution - but I didn't. Genuinely, not one bit.
I had a yt tues that I absolutely loved but this fall I bought a commencal supreme sx and found that even on dedicated shuttle days with true downhill terrain, I was leaving the Tues at home...some of this was certainly due to the fact that I was riding the supreme sx more and was more comfortable on it but still, you give up so little performance on the descents with the new burly all mountain/enduro/free ride bikes. I don't think I'll ever buy another downhill bike again and I live in a place that has lots of rowdy downhill terrain
This is a question I get a lot. I won't go into everything but here is my $0.02.
Without a doubt the modern enduro bike is the real deal. If I could only have one bike, it'd be something like a Yeti 4.5c, Slash, Nomad, Smuggler etc. The choice would really depend on where I live and what I find myself most doing. I know for a fact all of these bikes are versatile beyond belief. Some skew to the XC side of things (4.5c) some to the DH side of things (Nomad). Either way, they are all amazing and there is no doubt this is the ONE bike to own. You are giving up something on the DH, though its marginal, and around the states usually can be made up by the way these bikes carry momentum in the flatter stuff (read: most of our riding). And sure, they'll never outclimb an XC bike. Actually, scratch that, some will. Especially if its techy and gnar. So yeah, they are the real deal.
Why own a DH Bike in 2018...
You race DH (duh)
You live near a legit bike park (key word, legit)
You actually are a freerider (yes, that is a term I'm bringing back)
You are "mountain" wealthy and like bikes (you want a garage ornament that gets ridden 3-4x a year)
You are very new to the idea of gravity riding and live near a place where its a thing.
You go spend enough time at Whistler to justify it.
Why own only an enduro bike in 2018...
You race enduro
You can only own one bike
You like riding lifts and can afford more than one set of wheels (more on this below).
You believe there is something cool about really *knowing* your one bike
Your bike park is flat and/or flowy only
You are a good bike handler (you aren't new)
You enjoy pedaling uphill as well and rarely shuttle, even if you are riding DH trails
Reasons to own an XC bike in 2018
You race XC
You often do massive days (50-100 miles with over 10K of climbing)e
You can afford multiple bikes (see above)
Your trail system has a lot of super flowy smooth stuff
You believe a firmer bike will make you a better bike handler
You want to spread the abuse among multiple bikes
You are light
You don't really care too much about shaving time off the downs...and your trail system doesn't warrant it.
The fact is most people do not need a DH bike these days. There simply aren't many places to ride them that really warrant them. Period. Add to that bikes like the New Nomad or even the Slash and the line gets even more blurred. XC is a different ball of wax only that everyone lives close to good XC riding, and frankly you can get into a really fun XC bike for under $2K. I know my skills improve riding a hardtail, and its frankly more fun than my enduro bike in this situation. SO yeah, I think its more justified for your "modern mountain biker" to own an XC bike and an Enduro bike than an enduro bike and a DH bike (depending on where you live).
Really, tires are the most overlooked part of really making an enduro bike descend well IMO. Put real tires with inserts on and holy moly. Its like adding suspension and smashability in one simple part swap. Even owning two sets of wheels is an excellent idea (something I do).
Outside of this, there are reasons to buy a DH bike, especially if you are a new rider and totally intoxicated by the gravity side of things. I've seen this happen time and time again, especially with females who really like the confidence a DH bike can bring forth. This is something to keep in mind boyfriends and husbands!
Anyway. I just made simple question more complicated than it needs to be. But my name is Jeff
I think it's interesting to compare to other sports too. For example I've had one set of "Do it all" skis for a long time. And...
I think it's interesting to compare to other sports too. For example I've had one set of "Do it all" skis for a long time. And they where truly master of none, but most important they weren't really fun anywhere and I could feel it (even without testing other skis).
And then I went to specific slope/race skis and freeride skis, and I don't ever see myself going back.
On the other hand, when it comes to biking (also I might be a better skier than biker), I really enjoy my enduro bike on various type of terrains: my regular trails are mostly mellow (with some sweet technical spots or jumps) and yet I have a lot of fun, I also rode true bikepark stuff and had fun, I went for a multi-day trip through the alps and had fun, I rode some pretty techy stuff where a downhill wouldn't be out of place and still had fun, and so on...
So yeah I'm a big believer of enduro bike (or whatever you're naming them) as the one to rule them all, not because it can be as efficient as a XC and a DH bikes (it can't), but because you can have fun riding one on everything from XC loops to DH tracks.
And that's not the case in other sports (like skiing).
As a huge skier, I think this is a poor analogy (though one I often still make!)
Skis and surfboards are tools oriented just as much around conditions as they are rider style and terrain choice. Bikes are more of a style and terrain thing alone, not so much a conditions thing (there is no "mud" bike). This is the big differentiating factor.
There is the 'quiver of one' in skiing, and with binding/boot progression, its getting closer and closer. But it'll never be what the enduro bike is in that a good alpine setup needs weight to ski well and a good AT setup needs to have a whole lot less of that weight to be tolderable for 3-10K days. Its the mechanism of how you go up and down. Bikes are more efficient in dealing with excess weight it would seem (I have nothing to back this up). To add, skis by their nature require you to give up something to get something. EG, if I want a surfy ski that planes fast, I cannot have that same ski be super stable in hard snow being there is likely a very short 2D running length. No free lunch here.
I tried for a long time to get a light setup to work well in bounds, and with the right skier (AKA not me), it was okay, but nothing will beat a stiffer ski with metal and a stiff heavy boot for crushing chop. Maybe if we engineer dampers and whatnot into the ski and boot? lol.
On the other hand, I've got hip flexors that are literally trying to sabotage my season for touring on a ski with metal. Yes, I'm a pansy but you get the idea.
In any case, owning a multitude of skis or surfboards that are utilized like an artist uses a certain brush for a certain stroke makes a lot of sense. Bikes? I don't think it applies as much.
Anyway, just had to chime in on this one as I used to make the same analogy, and now feel its perhaps not as accurate as I wished...
This is a question I get a lot. I won't go into everything but here is my $0.02.
Without a doubt the modern enduro bike is...
This is a question I get a lot. I won't go into everything but here is my $0.02.
Without a doubt the modern enduro bike is the real deal. If I could only have one bike, it'd be something like a Yeti 4.5c, Slash, Nomad, Smuggler etc. The choice would really depend on where I live and what I find myself most doing. I know for a fact all of these bikes are versatile beyond belief. Some skew to the XC side of things (4.5c) some to the DH side of things (Nomad). Either way, they are all amazing and there is no doubt this is the ONE bike to own. You are giving up something on the DH, though its marginal, and around the states usually can be made up by the way these bikes carry momentum in the flatter stuff (read: most of our riding). And sure, they'll never outclimb an XC bike. Actually, scratch that, some will. Especially if its techy and gnar. So yeah, they are the real deal.
Why own a DH Bike in 2018...
You race DH (duh)
You live near a legit bike park (key word, legit)
You actually are a freerider (yes, that is a term I'm bringing back)
You are "mountain" wealthy and like bikes (you want a garage ornament that gets ridden 3-4x a year)
You are very new to the idea of gravity riding and live near a place where its a thing.
You go spend enough time at Whistler to justify it.
Why own only an enduro bike in 2018...
You race enduro
You can only own one bike
You like riding lifts and can afford more than one set of wheels (more on this below).
You believe there is something cool about really *knowing* your one bike
Your bike park is flat and/or flowy only
You are a good bike handler (you aren't new)
You enjoy pedaling uphill as well and rarely shuttle, even if you are riding DH trails
Reasons to own an XC bike in 2018
You race XC
You often do massive days (50-100 miles with over 10K of climbing)e
You can afford multiple bikes (see above)
Your trail system has a lot of super flowy smooth stuff
You believe a firmer bike will make you a better bike handler
You want to spread the abuse among multiple bikes
You are light
You don't really care too much about shaving time off the downs...and your trail system doesn't warrant it.
The fact is most people do not need a DH bike these days. There simply aren't many places to ride them that really warrant them. Period. Add to that bikes like the New Nomad or even the Slash and the line gets even more blurred. XC is a different ball of wax only that everyone lives close to good XC riding, and frankly you can get into a really fun XC bike for under $2K. I know my skills improve riding a hardtail, and its frankly more fun than my enduro bike in this situation. SO yeah, I think its more justified for your "modern mountain biker" to own an XC bike and an Enduro bike than an enduro bike and a DH bike (depending on where you live).
Really, tires are the most overlooked part of really making an enduro bike descend well IMO. Put real tires with inserts on and holy moly. Its like adding suspension and smashability in one simple part swap. Even owning two sets of wheels is an excellent idea (something I do).
Outside of this, there are reasons to buy a DH bike, especially if you are a new rider and totally intoxicated by the gravity side of things. I've seen this happen time and time again, especially with females who really like the confidence a DH bike can bring forth. This is something to keep in mind boyfriends and husbands!
Anyway. I just made simple question more complicated than it needs to be. But my name is Jeff
I think this makes a lot of sense. I think if I was starting from scratch without a DH bike I'd be strongly considering an enduro bike with an extra set of DH wheels. But, there are some damn good DH bikes on the used market for not much more than a set of wheels, cassette and tires. I still think the slightly more to get the full DH bike is worth it since then you have a better tool for the job.
Caveat: I haven't ridden a legit enduro bike in a few years so maybe I'm underestimating how close they are now to my DH bike.
I think this makes a lot of sense. I think if I was starting from scratch without a DH bike I'd be strongly considering an enduro...
I think this makes a lot of sense. I think if I was starting from scratch without a DH bike I'd be strongly considering an enduro bike with an extra set of DH wheels. But, there are some damn good DH bikes on the used market for not much more than a set of wheels, cassette and tires. I still think the slightly more to get the full DH bike is worth it since then you have a better tool for the job.
Caveat: I haven't ridden a legit enduro bike in a few years so maybe I'm underestimating how close they are now to my DH bike.
Absolutely hear you on the "cheap" DH bike thing, and I should have added - if you can pick one up for your local bike park just as a fun beater, it can be worth it.
For me, I'm 100% sure my enduro bike (slash) is faster than most any DH bike I'm going to pickup for under $1K. hence my point.
Now if I had $3.5K and YT had availability... hmmmm.
@jeff.brines
I hear you completely on the ski analogy, and I indeed though (but very quickly) about those snow conditions. I would say my point is that compared to pretty much any other sport I know, biking is the only sport where you can get an actual "Jack of all trade and (almost) master of all"
But I believe it also depends a lot of the components, for example take a XC/Trail frame like a santa 5010 and an enduro frame like the nomad 3. Depending on how you build them, they could be a lot closer in ability than one would assume just looking at frame/bike retail specs (ie travel and geometry).
The new breed of longer travel "Enduro" bikes are incredibly capable. Of the new 170mm bikes I have personally rider. The new Nomad and the new Enduro and was blown away how incredible capable and competent they are. They honestly can handle just about anything I'm qualified to ride. They still, however, aren't DH bikes. There are still areas around my hometown and Tahoe where I simply feel more comfortable on a DH bike. It's not about the bikes capabilities but more about how comfortable I feel on that bike. Perhaps it's all in my head but for when things get really steep and really gnarly, I like that extra size, extra heft and extra suspension travel, it just makes me feel all warm and cozy. Also, seeing Zink's new 150 foot jump he just built makes me think that full DH rigs aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Granted we are not all Zink and we don't all jump 100+ for nick's, but to prove a point, I'd say dh bikes still have a market and will be here a while.
-Enduro bikes are completely capable of replacing a Trail bike. They climb very well and leave nothing to be desired.
-Many people feel that their local trails do not warrant a full DH bike, and so Enduro bikes are completely capable of replacing a DH bikes in those situations.
-Some more confident riders may feel that an Enduro bike can even replace a DH bike on trails that have historically been considered DH bike territory.
-Some feel that DH bikes still hold a slight advantage on some trails, and is therefore worth the investment.
Just to clarify my question, I'm asking what "quiver" you would want to have if you had enough money to buy whatever "quiver" you want. So remember that "need" and anything to do with spending or saving money are not relevant to my question. Imagine that you can afford anything, and that you don't even have to choose between two wants, you can have them all! So, if you can spend as much money as you could dream of on mountain biking, would you buy a DH bike and a less descent friendly/more XC oriented Trail bike (two bike quiver,) or would you buy and Enduro bike (one bike quiver,) and why?
Also consider that if you have not ridden anything but Enduro bikes for the past few years, you may not be aware of the advantages that a current Trail bike or a current DH bike would have over the current Enduro bikes. So please tell us what bikes you have ridden in the past few years that have lead you to form your opinion.
And since someone asked, I'm defining Enduro bikes as any bike designed for Enduro Racing (like a Pivot Mach 6) or as a "mini-DH" type bike (like a Pivot Firebird.) A trail bike is any bike designed to just ride trails, not necessarily compete in racing, and therefore they have more XC DNA in their design than an Enduro Bike.
Also, thanks to all of you who have commented so far, it has certainly given me a lot to think about and I have read some great arguments for both a two bike quiver, and a one bike quiver.
If i was only allowed one bike id most probably stick with my carbon tranny patrol, make it as light as possible but with some strong alu rims.
Two bike allowance.. id have a slightly shorter travel duro bike, Sentinel or Ibis HD4? again built light with sturdy wheels. Second bike would be a duro bike on the longer end of travel Maybe new Patrol if they release a carbon version, firebird or whyte g170c etc 180 fork light and tidy wheels.
As for bikes ridden recently.. there's a few. GT sanction, Tranny patrol c, cube stereo c, cube fritzz, whyte s150c, orange stage 6, orange alpine6E(No ebike hatred here ;-) ), Saracen myst, spech demo 8, giant glory, Marin wolf ridge, santa cruz nomad 4, onone codeine, there maybe more that I've forgotten. Some are owned, some demoed and one or two are friends that I've swung a leg over for a quick nose.
I have currently three bikes CX, EN (Intense Tracer 2018) and DH (Saracen Myst). Riding most of time EN, but DH helps me to try new things. If something will not go as expected, DH helps much more than any other bike can do...
If the question is what bikes would I have if I had enough money? Definitely a trail and DH bike based on local trails. In Boulder we have decent access to shuttle trails and lift access that don't require a DH bike, but are more fun on one and take less of a beating (both you and the bike).
The other trails we have are mostly watered down IMBA-approved trails that people are able to ride on hardtails, so a trail bike is more than capable. Enduro would be overmatched.
With the DTC models and offerings from brands like YT and Commencal, not to mention a great local used bike market, I don't see a reason why someone can't have both for a discount rather than a top tier enduro bike that will be overmatched on 75% of riding local trails, and undermatched/not as fun on lift days. When I used a trail bike for lift access I was able to ride everything, but 9/10 days I would have to fix or replace something at the end of the day. In the long run I think the cheaper option is to have 2 bikes that are made for the purpose you're using them for
Unless you live next to some serious DH terrain then a 160mm bike IS a DH bike. They’re designed so you can ride back to the top which is great but I still spend a lot of time pushing back up sketchy hillsides. I want to own a proper DH bike, a bike that makes no excuses and no compromises for DH capability but in the UK where I live that bike would probably just be an ‘enduro’ bike without a dropper or easy gears - a ‘proper’ DH bike isn’t gonna enhance the experience; it would probably detract from it.
Here I’m talking solely from a point of view that going downhill is all I really care about and all I really ride and if we’re talking about whether I could have a bike for every occasion then for some tracks here a super short wheelbase ‘XC’ bike would be preferable to a DH bike provided it had at least some suspension. And these tracks aren’t flat. They’re just short, steep and twisty and often as packed full of jumps as we can make em. Massive bikes just aren’t good for that.
My point is the enduro bike is almost overkill already but they’ve gotten so good that for me yeah, they are the quiver killer.
If you're going to have just one bike, then for sure a 160mm enduro rig. You can ride just about anything on it and have fun. For most people riding for fun, this makes sense.
If you think you can be a serious DH or XC racer on it though, you are kidding yourself.
On a proper DH course, a DH bike is going to be faster, safer and you'll break less stuff.
If you are pedaling uphill against the clock, your enduro rig is going to be a pig.
If you're going to have just one bike, then for sure a 160mm enduro rig. You can ride just about anything on it and have fun...
If you're going to have just one bike, then for sure a 160mm enduro rig. You can ride just about anything on it and have fun. For most people riding for fun, this makes sense.
If you think you can be a serious DH or XC racer on it though, you are kidding yourself.
On a proper DH course, a DH bike is going to be faster, safer and you'll break less stuff.
If you are pedaling uphill against the clock, your enduro rig is going to be a pig.
Ironically I suppose, (or unfortunately?) I've done all of these things. Racing a few longer XC races on my enduro rig (5.5c and a Patrol), winning a local DH race on my enduro bike.
I think what you say is generally true however, especially as the level gets more legit. That said, this side of full on WC DH, I won't be surprised to see a bike like the Nomad with a proper fork mixing it up...and in longer marathon style racing an 4.5c with light wheels could very well be competitive.
I began my MTB story with hardtails back in 2005, ridden a lot, eventually bought Giant XTC (ridden SPD) in 2008 and kept it for a while because I got less time for riding. I rebooted around 2013, year later I decided to buy first full-suspension bike which was 140mm Canyon Spectral (ridden flats) and... I loved it!
First rock-smashing, bikeparks, big-hit jumps... I got into gravity so much I decided to sell this trail bike the same year and buy... DH bike which was Mondraker Summum (ridden flats). It's when I found how capable 200mm coil suspension and virtual pivot point linkage can be. Sending all huge jumps was a matter of progression – eventually you was about to make it and DH bike was there to support you. Same with DH double-diamond tracks.
Unfortunately back then I really missed regular trails without lift access. In 2016, keeping my Summum, I bought Canyon Strive (ridden SPD, 130/160 Shapeshifter) and it was a game-changer. From 36lb Summum to 29lb carbon Strive suddenly all changed because of how this bike was capable. Riding flowy trails, smashing enduro natural singletracks, hitting most bikepark lines – not a problem. It was super easy to put 29lb bike with SPD anywhere on the track, it was even quite easy to whip or choose sideways line anywhere. The only thing was... the feeling of fragileness – 29lb, single-crown fork, Sram Rail wheels – it doesn't took much time to make rims squeezing, to feel that wheels in high speed berms are getting distorted. I haven't cleared many bikepark jumps I used to clear with Summum because of the fear of broking my lots-of-money carbon bike.
One way or another I sold Summum because I used it merely 4 times in whole year. It took dust, but it still required money to service. Strive was enough for me.
Time was passing by (2017), there was more enduro trails, more spots, rowdier DH tracks... I guess I also understood which geometry parameter is responsible for what and what I expect from mountainbiking.
This year I'm buying new Santa Cruz Nomad because this is what I assume to be best bike for me.
I can summarize my story with selecting a bike like using "bracketing" method of setting clicks on damper (Fox's Fitzsimmons idea). Test slowest setting, test fastest setting, test setting in between etc. My bikes were like: 140mm -> 200mm -> 160mm -> now I decided to choose 170mm.
Taking @jeff's IFTTT I would create a bike-selection bracketing method:
1. If you're new to gravity MTB and you're looking for full-suspension bike: start with 130-140mm trail bike.
2a. If it feels good for you and you prefer getting trails with pedaling uphills and you're not into bikeparks – keep it or find some 150mm 29".
2b. On the other hand if you look with envy (or Enve, lol) at guys taking air time measured in minutes or you feel bad because you feel like your bike will fall apart when hitting rowdier double-diamond track in bikepark – go ahead and find some purebred Downhill 200mm bike for ya!
3a. You're hitting new jumps you haven't tried before with your new DH bike at every visit to bikepark or you're planning to visit more and more new bikeparks you haven't been yet – stay with DH bike and you'll be happy or select some hardcore FR bike with coil suspension and 180mm.
3b. If you're already riding a DH bike and most jumps are "done", but you miss trails you can't get uplifted to – think about looking for some monstertruck 160mm 29" or some "miniDH rig" with 170mm and a coil in the back.
tl;dr
* If we use to think that modern "enduro bikes" are capable to do-it-all – yes it's true. Basically it's about choosing the correct size of 160mm enduro-bike.
* If we know ourselves and "we've been there and done that" – we will always wander to choose as many bikes as we need to fulfil the passion and feel like a 100% part of "it". Trail riding, DH racing, bikepark jumps hitting, smashing singletracks – there are and always will be a dedicated bike for that.
* If you have enough space in your garage to store the bikes and you have enough money to fill this space – why not have more than one bike? Nevertheless after my 0-200mm story I'm still looking for "The One" – it takes less space than a fleet and costs A LOTS less than keeping all bikes up-to-date, especially in world with such fast changing standards.
In my country, there are very few DH tracks where a trail bike, in the right hands, cannot set a top 5 time in the pro/elite category.
I did have an 160mm enduro bike, but ended up getting rid of for the reasons above. If I was a die hard racer or lived somewhere with actual mountains, I'd no doubt go with a bigger and burlier machine. But to be honest, the trail bike's livelier ride just makes me feel like a better rider..
I could get away with just having the Tranny but for me it would take away some of the fun of pushing the limits of the trail bike and the security of the bigger bikes on lift days.
P.S. one of the bikes is nearly always broken, i tend to ride hard and often. A single bike would get battered very quickly!
It is not the hype, it actually geometry
And then I went to specific slope/race skis and freeride skis, and I don't ever see myself going back.
On the other hand, when it comes to biking (also I might be a better skier than biker), I really enjoy my enduro bike on various type of terrains: my regular trails are mostly mellow (with some sweet technical spots or jumps) and yet I have a lot of fun, I also rode true bikepark stuff and had fun, I went for a multi-day trip through the alps and had fun, I rode some pretty techy stuff where a downhill wouldn't be out of place and still had fun, and so on...
So yeah I'm a big believer of enduro bike (or whatever you're naming them) as the one to rule them all, not because it can be as efficient as a XC and a DH bikes (it can't), but because you can have fun riding one on everything from XC loops to DH tracks.
And that's not the case in other sports (like skiing).
Having said that, Hafjell is 4 hours from me and that track is brutal. Yes an Enduro bike will get down it quick enough, but nothing beats the feeling of ploughing through a bunch of huge, square edge rocks on a bike that is built exactly for the job.
In the end it really depends on the terrain that you ride. If you have a DH track on your doorstep it's probably worth the investment. If it's pretty tame where you live, sometimes even an enduro bike can be too much bike.
I think the modern Enduro bike has really eaten into DH bike sales and even race entries.
And I don't think I'm alone in saying that I kinda resent having an expensive and rapidly devaluing DH bike hung up in the cellar, when we're now constantly questioning whether it serves any purpose at all.
I'm a fairly mature (ahem, old) rider these days at 37 and I've been a mountain biker for at least the last 20 years.
Last summer was the first ever, where I went on the usual Alpine road trip and didn't take a dedicated DH bike - and it's simply because I no longer own one. I took a brand new Nicolai G16 instead (so new that the welds were barely cold!) and that holiday for me was the final nail in the coffin for DH bike ownership. I did wonder if I'd miss it, if I'd ride round that jump, if I'd pass on the 18th dusk-run from the chairlift from exhaution - but I didn't. Genuinely, not one bit.
Without a doubt the modern enduro bike is the real deal. If I could only have one bike, it'd be something like a Yeti 4.5c, Slash, Nomad, Smuggler etc. The choice would really depend on where I live and what I find myself most doing. I know for a fact all of these bikes are versatile beyond belief. Some skew to the XC side of things (4.5c) some to the DH side of things (Nomad). Either way, they are all amazing and there is no doubt this is the ONE bike to own. You are giving up something on the DH, though its marginal, and around the states usually can be made up by the way these bikes carry momentum in the flatter stuff (read: most of our riding). And sure, they'll never outclimb an XC bike. Actually, scratch that, some will. Especially if its techy and gnar. So yeah, they are the real deal.
Why own a DH Bike in 2018...
You race DH (duh)
You live near a legit bike park (key word, legit)
You actually are a freerider (yes, that is a term I'm bringing back)
You are "mountain" wealthy and like bikes (you want a garage ornament that gets ridden 3-4x a year)
You are very new to the idea of gravity riding and live near a place where its a thing.
You go spend enough time at Whistler to justify it.
Why own only an enduro bike in 2018...
You race enduro
You can only own one bike
You like riding lifts and can afford more than one set of wheels (more on this below).
You believe there is something cool about really *knowing* your one bike
Your bike park is flat and/or flowy only
You are a good bike handler (you aren't new)
You enjoy pedaling uphill as well and rarely shuttle, even if you are riding DH trails
Reasons to own an XC bike in 2018
You race XC
You often do massive days (50-100 miles with over 10K of climbing)e
You can afford multiple bikes (see above)
Your trail system has a lot of super flowy smooth stuff
You believe a firmer bike will make you a better bike handler
You want to spread the abuse among multiple bikes
You are light
You don't really care too much about shaving time off the downs...and your trail system doesn't warrant it.
The fact is most people do not need a DH bike these days. There simply aren't many places to ride them that really warrant them. Period. Add to that bikes like the New Nomad or even the Slash and the line gets even more blurred. XC is a different ball of wax only that everyone lives close to good XC riding, and frankly you can get into a really fun XC bike for under $2K. I know my skills improve riding a hardtail, and its frankly more fun than my enduro bike in this situation. SO yeah, I think its more justified for your "modern mountain biker" to own an XC bike and an Enduro bike than an enduro bike and a DH bike (depending on where you live).
Really, tires are the most overlooked part of really making an enduro bike descend well IMO. Put real tires with inserts on and holy moly. Its like adding suspension and smashability in one simple part swap. Even owning two sets of wheels is an excellent idea (something I do).
Outside of this, there are reasons to buy a DH bike, especially if you are a new rider and totally intoxicated by the gravity side of things. I've seen this happen time and time again, especially with females who really like the confidence a DH bike can bring forth. This is something to keep in mind boyfriends and husbands!
Anyway. I just made simple question more complicated than it needs to be. But my name is Jeff
Skis and surfboards are tools oriented just as much around conditions as they are rider style and terrain choice. Bikes are more of a style and terrain thing alone, not so much a conditions thing (there is no "mud" bike). This is the big differentiating factor.
There is the 'quiver of one' in skiing, and with binding/boot progression, its getting closer and closer. But it'll never be what the enduro bike is in that a good alpine setup needs weight to ski well and a good AT setup needs to have a whole lot less of that weight to be tolderable for 3-10K days. Its the mechanism of how you go up and down. Bikes are more efficient in dealing with excess weight it would seem (I have nothing to back this up). To add, skis by their nature require you to give up something to get something. EG, if I want a surfy ski that planes fast, I cannot have that same ski be super stable in hard snow being there is likely a very short 2D running length. No free lunch here.
I tried for a long time to get a light setup to work well in bounds, and with the right skier (AKA not me), it was okay, but nothing will beat a stiffer ski with metal and a stiff heavy boot for crushing chop. Maybe if we engineer dampers and whatnot into the ski and boot? lol.
On the other hand, I've got hip flexors that are literally trying to sabotage my season for touring on a ski with metal. Yes, I'm a pansy but you get the idea.
In any case, owning a multitude of skis or surfboards that are utilized like an artist uses a certain brush for a certain stroke makes a lot of sense. Bikes? I don't think it applies as much.
Anyway, just had to chime in on this one as I used to make the same analogy, and now feel its perhaps not as accurate as I wished...
Caveat: I haven't ridden a legit enduro bike in a few years so maybe I'm underestimating how close they are now to my DH bike.
For me, I'm 100% sure my enduro bike (slash) is faster than most any DH bike I'm going to pickup for under $1K. hence my point.
Now if I had $3.5K and YT had availability... hmmmm.
I hear you completely on the ski analogy, and I indeed though (but very quickly) about those snow conditions. I would say my point is that compared to pretty much any other sport I know, biking is the only sport where you can get an actual "Jack of all trade and (almost) master of all"
But I believe it also depends a lot of the components, for example take a XC/Trail frame like a santa 5010 and an enduro frame like the nomad 3. Depending on how you build them, they could be a lot closer in ability than one would assume just looking at frame/bike retail specs (ie travel and geometry).
-Enduro bikes are completely capable of replacing a Trail bike. They climb very well and leave nothing to be desired.
-Many people feel that their local trails do not warrant a full DH bike, and so Enduro bikes are completely capable of replacing a DH bikes in those situations.
-Some more confident riders may feel that an Enduro bike can even replace a DH bike on trails that have historically been considered DH bike territory.
-Some feel that DH bikes still hold a slight advantage on some trails, and is therefore worth the investment.
Just to clarify my question, I'm asking what "quiver" you would want to have if you had enough money to buy whatever "quiver" you want. So remember that "need" and anything to do with spending or saving money are not relevant to my question. Imagine that you can afford anything, and that you don't even have to choose between two wants, you can have them all! So, if you can spend as much money as you could dream of on mountain biking, would you buy a DH bike and a less descent friendly/more XC oriented Trail bike (two bike quiver,) or would you buy and Enduro bike (one bike quiver,) and why?
Also consider that if you have not ridden anything but Enduro bikes for the past few years, you may not be aware of the advantages that a current Trail bike or a current DH bike would have over the current Enduro bikes. So please tell us what bikes you have ridden in the past few years that have lead you to form your opinion.
And since someone asked, I'm defining Enduro bikes as any bike designed for Enduro Racing (like a Pivot Mach 6) or as a "mini-DH" type bike (like a Pivot Firebird.) A trail bike is any bike designed to just ride trails, not necessarily compete in racing, and therefore they have more XC DNA in their design than an Enduro Bike.
Two bike allowance.. id have a slightly shorter travel duro bike, Sentinel or Ibis HD4? again built light with sturdy wheels. Second bike would be a duro bike on the longer end of travel Maybe new Patrol if they release a carbon version, firebird or whyte g170c etc 180 fork light and tidy wheels.
As for bikes ridden recently.. there's a few. GT sanction, Tranny patrol c, cube stereo c, cube fritzz, whyte s150c, orange stage 6, orange alpine6E(No ebike hatred here ;-) ), Saracen myst, spech demo 8, giant glory, Marin wolf ridge, santa cruz nomad 4, onone codeine, there maybe more that I've forgotten. Some are owned, some demoed and one or two are friends that I've swung a leg over for a quick nose.
The other trails we have are mostly watered down IMBA-approved trails that people are able to ride on hardtails, so a trail bike is more than capable. Enduro would be overmatched.
With the DTC models and offerings from brands like YT and Commencal, not to mention a great local used bike market, I don't see a reason why someone can't have both for a discount rather than a top tier enduro bike that will be overmatched on 75% of riding local trails, and undermatched/not as fun on lift days. When I used a trail bike for lift access I was able to ride everything, but 9/10 days I would have to fix or replace something at the end of the day. In the long run I think the cheaper option is to have 2 bikes that are made for the purpose you're using them for
Here I’m talking solely from a point of view that going downhill is all I really care about and all I really ride and if we’re talking about whether I could have a bike for every occasion then for some tracks here a super short wheelbase ‘XC’ bike would be preferable to a DH bike provided it had at least some suspension. And these tracks aren’t flat. They’re just short, steep and twisty and often as packed full of jumps as we can make em. Massive bikes just aren’t good for that.
My point is the enduro bike is almost overkill already but they’ve gotten so good that for me yeah, they are the quiver killer.
If you think you can be a serious DH or XC racer on it though, you are kidding yourself.
On a proper DH course, a DH bike is going to be faster, safer and you'll break less stuff.
If you are pedaling uphill against the clock, your enduro rig is going to be a pig.
I think what you say is generally true however, especially as the level gets more legit. That said, this side of full on WC DH, I won't be surprised to see a bike like the Nomad with a proper fork mixing it up...and in longer marathon style racing an 4.5c with light wheels could very well be competitive.
I began my MTB story with hardtails back in 2005, ridden a lot, eventually bought Giant XTC (ridden SPD) in 2008 and kept it for a while because I got less time for riding. I rebooted around 2013, year later I decided to buy first full-suspension bike which was 140mm Canyon Spectral (ridden flats) and... I loved it!
First rock-smashing, bikeparks, big-hit jumps... I got into gravity so much I decided to sell this trail bike the same year and buy... DH bike which was Mondraker Summum (ridden flats). It's when I found how capable 200mm coil suspension and virtual pivot point linkage can be. Sending all huge jumps was a matter of progression – eventually you was about to make it and DH bike was there to support you. Same with DH double-diamond tracks.
Unfortunately back then I really missed regular trails without lift access. In 2016, keeping my Summum, I bought Canyon Strive (ridden SPD, 130/160 Shapeshifter) and it was a game-changer. From 36lb Summum to 29lb carbon Strive suddenly all changed because of how this bike was capable. Riding flowy trails, smashing enduro natural singletracks, hitting most bikepark lines – not a problem. It was super easy to put 29lb bike with SPD anywhere on the track, it was even quite easy to whip or choose sideways line anywhere. The only thing was... the feeling of fragileness – 29lb, single-crown fork, Sram Rail wheels – it doesn't took much time to make rims squeezing, to feel that wheels in high speed berms are getting distorted. I haven't cleared many bikepark jumps I used to clear with Summum because of the fear of broking my lots-of-money carbon bike.
One way or another I sold Summum because I used it merely 4 times in whole year. It took dust, but it still required money to service. Strive was enough for me.
Time was passing by (2017), there was more enduro trails, more spots, rowdier DH tracks... I guess I also understood which geometry parameter is responsible for what and what I expect from mountainbiking.
This year I'm buying new Santa Cruz Nomad because this is what I assume to be best bike for me.
I can summarize my story with selecting a bike like using "bracketing" method of setting clicks on damper (Fox's Fitzsimmons idea). Test slowest setting, test fastest setting, test setting in between etc. My bikes were like: 140mm -> 200mm -> 160mm -> now I decided to choose 170mm.
Taking @jeff's IFTTT I would create a bike-selection bracketing method:
1. If you're new to gravity MTB and you're looking for full-suspension bike: start with 130-140mm trail bike.
2a. If it feels good for you and you prefer getting trails with pedaling uphills and you're not into bikeparks – keep it or find some 150mm 29".
2b. On the other hand if you look with envy (or Enve, lol) at guys taking air time measured in minutes or you feel bad because you feel like your bike will fall apart when hitting rowdier double-diamond track in bikepark – go ahead and find some purebred Downhill 200mm bike for ya!
3a. You're hitting new jumps you haven't tried before with your new DH bike at every visit to bikepark or you're planning to visit more and more new bikeparks you haven't been yet – stay with DH bike and you'll be happy or select some hardcore FR bike with coil suspension and 180mm.
3b. If you're already riding a DH bike and most jumps are "done", but you miss trails you can't get uplifted to – think about looking for some monstertruck 160mm 29" or some "miniDH rig" with 170mm and a coil in the back.
tl;dr
* If we use to think that modern "enduro bikes" are capable to do-it-all – yes it's true. Basically it's about choosing the correct size of 160mm enduro-bike.
* If we know ourselves and "we've been there and done that" – we will always wander to choose as many bikes as we need to fulfil the passion and feel like a 100% part of "it". Trail riding, DH racing, bikepark jumps hitting, smashing singletracks – there are and always will be a dedicated bike for that.
* If you have enough space in your garage to store the bikes and you have enough money to fill this space – why not have more than one bike? Nevertheless after my 0-200mm story I'm still looking for "The One" – it takes less space than a fleet and costs A LOTS less than keeping all bikes up-to-date, especially in world with such fast changing standards.
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