Phew, now that post #1000 is published, I can post again :)
Regarding the Norco, it's a horst link, the Druid is a single pivot. Owen...
Phew, now that post #1000 is published, I can post again
Regarding the Norco, it's a horst link, the Druid is a single pivot. Owen Pemberton is the Founder, CEO and design engineer of Forbidden and he was part of the AUrum HSP project. The druid design was a collaboration with
Alastair Beckett of Redburn design, who also did the Privateer bikes (I think it's no coincidence both have very steep seat tubes but very short top tubes...).
As for the Norco, like I said, the Aurum is still in the lineup as the DH bike.
As for Sram, it's actually relatively similar to what Shimano is doing regarding the sandwich construction, just achieved differently. And honestly it could all just be a patent to cover competitors off. For one thing I'd love to hear an expert regarding spray welding of stainless steel to aluminium. If nothing else the galvanic potential of aluminium and stainless steel is quite a bit apart. I wouldn't be surprised if these two metals were less than happy to be joined together?
There have been aluminium rotors in the past, but they were ceramic coated. And there have been aluminium rotors seen in the past, the first gen Lotus Elise had them, where they were used for lightness reasons. The facelift ditched them, most likely due to sourcing issues (cast iron rotors are supplied in huge quantities, I'm guessing it wasn't as easy to get a supplier both for the rotors and the pads. Continental (yeah, the tyre company - tyres are only ~30 % of the total revenue for the conglomerate) has suggested aluminium brake systems for EVs to prevent rust (EVs don't use brakes as much as ICE cars do, so the brakes are usually more rusty). So it appears to be possible to have straight aluminium rotors. For bikes the thickness is an issue as there's no way you'll stop anything with 2 mm of thickness. Given ~1/3 of density of aluminium you could go to almost three times the thickness, gaining a lot of stiffness with no weight penalty. Plus the specific heat (the amount of heat absorbed by the material) is roughly double per gram for aluminium than it is for stainless steel, plus the heat transfer factors are better - more heat can be absorbed at the same weight by aluminium and it is thrown away quicker.
What a thick aluminium rotor would require though is a wider brake caliper. And of course special brake pads as well.
Another point of contention would also likely be flatness. Steel is relatively hard, meaning it's possible to grind it to achieve certain dimensions. I'm not so sure what is possible with aluminium due to its softness, I wouldn't be surprised if it would be much harder to get it flat than it is to get steel to be flat.
I'd be curious to hear said materials scientist take on this too. Specifically, I've wondered if the oxide layer of aluminum helps to prevent galvanic corrosion or not. I have been told a time or two to avoid moly and graphite grease around mountain bikes because theres so much alloy-steel interaction and these products will cause galvanic corrosion to occur. Honestly not a big deal because theres plenty of great grease that's not moly or graphite. Still, I'd love to hear it strait from an actual scientist/chemist/enginerd.
Honestly if the rotor waves side to side it's not a problem as it will deform to fit the caliper anyway. Any variations in thickness will...
Honestly if the rotor waves side to side it's not a problem as it will deform to fit the caliper anyway. Any variations in thickness will cause an issue as you'll have pulsating braking force. Even certain hole patterns caused vibrations during braking in the past.
It looks like it is possible to bond different metals, but yeah, the question is how strong that bond is. And how thick the SS coating will be? Shimano's stuff is relatively thin if I remember correctly. But yeah, the SS coated variant could probably be ground to thickness.
The bond is fine, they bond aluminium super structures to steel hulls in ship building.
You should definitely avoid molly, stick to bikes, it tends to be better for your health
Jokes aside, I remember pictures of the M950 generation of XTR cranks flaking the paint off when someone put pedals with titanium axles onto them. The cranks simply corroded, starting at the pedal threaded hole. Stainless steel, if I remember correctly, has an issue with galling where it will essentially corrode onto itself in a nut and bolt situation, when you thread them together. Etc.
But a good point about oxidation as the aluminium oxide layer is technically a ceramic. And it is created basically instantly, I remember a coworker (shout out to Jure, he tends to read the team rumors thread incognito, maybe he's lurking here too
) telling me a raw aluminium surface creates an oxide layer in a time frame of nanoseconds under very low absolute pressure (hundreths of a bar). And Wikipedia states a 4 nm layer is created in hundredths of picoseconds (less than a nanosecond) under normal atmospheric conditions. Plus you have the Apollo 1 disaster where they lost the crew due to capsule fire. In a documentary I watched it is said billet aluminium blocks burn like wood under 27 psi (1,9-ish bar) of pure oxygen atmosphere, which is what was used inside the capsule.
As for superstructures, how do they do that? Because for example cars that have the chassis made out of aluminium tend to be bonded, not welded. If you have the surface area to bond (glue) things together, it's the go-to when it comes to aluminium. It's a win-win, cheap, quick, not energy intensive, doesn't influence the material structure (heat related), etc. So if it's bonded I wouldn't exactly use it as a showcase
That's a bit of a bummer although not entirely surprising. I had figured that since they had the dh38 already they'd be able to get a...
That's a bit of a bummer although not entirely surprising. I had figured that since they had the dh38 already they'd be able to get a sc 38mm fork out quicker than a lot of other companies, but that might not really make sense with stress tests and all that.
They could for sure, but they say it is just too stiff for Enduro or for regular customers at least. I believe only one of their...
They could for sure, but they say it is just too stiff for Enduro or for regular customers at least. I believe only one of their Enduro racers is running it, Matt Stuttard.
"Yeah we made it and it's great.... but you guys aren't cool enough." - Ohlins
You should definitely avoid molly, stick to bikes, it tends to be better for your health :P
Jokes aside, I remember pictures of the M950 generation...
You should definitely avoid molly, stick to bikes, it tends to be better for your health
Jokes aside, I remember pictures of the M950 generation of XTR cranks flaking the paint off when someone put pedals with titanium axles onto them. The cranks simply corroded, starting at the pedal threaded hole. Stainless steel, if I remember correctly, has an issue with galling where it will essentially corrode onto itself in a nut and bolt situation, when you thread them together. Etc.
But a good point about oxidation as the aluminium oxide layer is technically a ceramic. And it is created basically instantly, I remember a coworker (shout out to Jure, he tends to read the team rumors thread incognito, maybe he's lurking here too
) telling me a raw aluminium surface creates an oxide layer in a time frame of nanoseconds under very low absolute pressure (hundreths of a bar). And Wikipedia states a 4 nm layer is created in hundredths of picoseconds (less than a nanosecond) under normal atmospheric conditions. Plus you have the Apollo 1 disaster where they lost the crew due to capsule fire. In a documentary I watched it is said billet aluminium blocks burn like wood under 27 psi (1,9-ish bar) of pure oxygen atmosphere, which is what was used inside the capsule.
As for superstructures, how do they do that? Because for example cars that have the chassis made out of aluminium tend to be bonded, not welded. If you have the surface area to bond (glue) things together, it's the go-to when it comes to aluminium. It's a win-win, cheap, quick, not energy intensive, doesn't influence the material structure (heat related), etc. So if it's bonded I wouldn't exactly use it as a showcase
With heat I believe bimetal welded strip joint (Deta-Couple).
Ah, Googled it, they use transition joints that are prepared through explosion welding. Which is essentially bonding two otherwise incompatible metals under high pressure (explosions)
At least it appears Aluminium and Steel can live together.
That's a bit of a bummer although not entirely surprising. I had figured that since they had the dh38 already they'd be able to get a...
That's a bit of a bummer although not entirely surprising. I had figured that since they had the dh38 already they'd be able to get a sc 38mm fork out quicker than a lot of other companies, but that might not really make sense with stress tests and all that.
They could for sure, but they say it is just too stiff for Enduro or for regular customers at least. I believe only one of their...
They could for sure, but they say it is just too stiff for Enduro or for regular customers at least. I believe only one of their Enduro racers is running it, Matt Stuttard.
"Yeah we made it and it's great.... but you guys aren't cool enough." - Ohlins
Based on demand I imagine they are planning production runs years in advance based on oem deals and only have limited production space to dedicate to aftermarket production at the time. They’ve been in the mtb game a pretty short time and have grown a ton in that time.
Based on demand I imagine they are planning production runs years in advance based on oem deals and only have limited production space to dedicate to...
Based on demand I imagine they are planning production runs years in advance based on oem deals and only have limited production space to dedicate to aftermarket production at the time. They’ve been in the mtb game a pretty short time and have grown a ton in that time.
yea but they're not new to suspension. i seem to recall hearing from someone that OEM orders for parts to build complete bikes are placed between 12 and 18 months before a model is released for sale to the public. how accurate that is i'm not entirely certain, but it seems
demand planning may be done years in advance, but production scheduling typically isn't finalized that far out.
yea but they're not new to suspension. i seem to recall hearing from someone that OEM orders for parts to build complete bikes are placed between...
yea but they're not new to suspension. i seem to recall hearing from someone that OEM orders for parts to build complete bikes are placed between 12 and 18 months before a model is released for sale to the public. how accurate that is i'm not entirely certain, but it seems
demand planning may be done years in advance, but production scheduling typically isn't finalized that far out.
Until COVID, shorter. Not dealt with suspension however, could vary.
thanks for the insight.
i know MY (model year) bikes can start the design process 2-3 years before the year they are to be launched (depending on if its a redesign or an all new model from the ground up).
with suspension, the lead times & cost for casting tooling (fork lowers) are long/high, so that's likely longer/earlier in the process. also why the cast lowers get used for a few years before new designs are introduced.
They could for sure, but they say it is just too stiff for Enduro or for regular customers at least. I believe only one of their...
They could for sure, but they say it is just too stiff for Enduro or for regular customers at least. I believe only one of their Enduro racers is running it, Matt Stuttard.
Based on demand I imagine they are planning production runs years in advance based on oem deals and only have limited production space to dedicate to...
Based on demand I imagine they are planning production runs years in advance based on oem deals and only have limited production space to dedicate to aftermarket production at the time. They’ve been in the mtb game a pretty short time and have grown a ton in that time.
I was just joking around with that "quote". I could totally see what you're saying being true. I also am not sure where ohlins is manufactured, but seeing the wait times on parts from shimano/sram/fox, I wonder if they've hit production issues due to the pandemic and can only fulfill OEM orders.
Is this new? Seems like Canyon has a prototype carbon trials bike now? I remember Fabios last bike being aluminium. If they spend that much cash on molds do you think it wil end up being something they sell?
Is this new? Seems like Canyon has a prototype carbon trials bike now? I remember Fabios last bike being aluminium. If they spend that much cash...
Is this new? Seems like Canyon has a prototype carbon trials bike now? I remember Fabios last bike being aluminium. If they spend that much cash on molds do you think it wil end up being something they sell?
I used to work at a shop that stocked inspired trials bikes, and I don't think we actually sold one the entire time I was there. I'd say it's not out of the realm of possibility but it's hard to imagine them making a big profit off that segment of the market.
Is this new? Seems like Canyon has a prototype carbon trials bike now? I remember Fabios last bike being aluminium. If they spend that much cash...
Is this new? Seems like Canyon has a prototype carbon trials bike now? I remember Fabios last bike being aluminium. If they spend that much cash on molds do you think it wil end up being something they sell?
Santa Cruz did the same thing for Macaskill as a one-off. Doubt they would sell it to the general public.
Production molds are expensive. You could just as well do a proto frame shape from foam, make carbon or composite molds off that and make a working frame in those molds.
Production molds are expensive. You could just as well do a proto frame shape from foam, make carbon or composite molds off that and make a...
Production molds are expensive. You could just as well do a proto frame shape from foam, make carbon or composite molds off that and make a working frame in those molds.
True. Also carbon fibre frames are nice and eye catching but I dont know if its the ideal material for a trials frame? Its probably very stiff but the downtube and bb shell etc gets loads of abuse on those bikes.
Theoretically carbon could be made compliant and the like. But clearly it's not about what's best for the application, it's about what's best for the brand
Is this new? Seems like Canyon has a prototype carbon trials bike now? I remember Fabios last bike being aluminium. If they spend that much cash...
Is this new? Seems like Canyon has a prototype carbon trials bike now? I remember Fabios last bike being aluminium. If they spend that much cash on molds do you think it wil end up being something they sell?
It's not "new" since he have it for a few weeks or months, and no, it will not be available. Virtually nobody buyed the Inspired Skye (Danny Mac's promodel at the time) with a 3k£ tag price, so I guess nobody would be keen to pay 5k£ or more...
Is this new? Seems like Canyon has a prototype carbon trials bike now? I remember Fabios last bike being aluminium. If they spend that much cash...
Is this new? Seems like Canyon has a prototype carbon trials bike now? I remember Fabios last bike being aluminium. If they spend that much cash on molds do you think it wil end up being something they sell?
It's not "new" since he have it for a few weeks or months, and no, it will not be available. Virtually nobody buyed the Inspired Skye...
It's not "new" since he have it for a few weeks or months, and no, it will not be available. Virtually nobody buyed the Inspired Skye (Danny Mac's promodel at the time) with a 3k£ tag price, so I guess nobody would be keen to pay 5k£ or more...
Well my google search didnt find it anywhere. (only the Aluminium version). Sorry
Jokes aside, I remember pictures of the M950 generation of XTR cranks flaking the paint off when someone put pedals with titanium axles onto them. The cranks simply corroded, starting at the pedal threaded hole. Stainless steel, if I remember correctly, has an issue with galling where it will essentially corrode onto itself in a nut and bolt situation, when you thread them together. Etc.
But a good point about oxidation as the aluminium oxide layer is technically a ceramic. And it is created basically instantly, I remember a coworker (shout out to Jure, he tends to read the team rumors thread incognito, maybe he's lurking here too
As for superstructures, how do they do that? Because for example cars that have the chassis made out of aluminium tend to be bonded, not welded. If you have the surface area to bond (glue) things together, it's the go-to when it comes to aluminium. It's a win-win, cheap, quick, not energy intensive, doesn't influence the material structure (heat related), etc. So if it's bonded I wouldn't exactly use it as a showcase
At least it appears Aluminium and Steel can live together.
demand planning may be done years in advance, but production scheduling typically isn't finalized that far out.
i know MY (model year) bikes can start the design process 2-3 years before the year they are to be launched (depending on if its a redesign or an all new model from the ground up).
with suspension, the lead times & cost for casting tooling (fork lowers) are long/high, so that's likely longer/earlier in the process. also why the cast lowers get used for a few years before new designs are introduced.
Post a reply to: MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation