If we all hit the weight room a little more often (or ever in my case) non of this would be a problem
If we all hit the weight room a little more often (or ever in my case) non of this would be a problem
underrated comment. I like the workout I get riding my 54lb Timp Peak, just means I spend less time in the gym and more time riding my bike, and as an ex D1 wrestler I used to be a gym rat. I don't find the EB to be cumbersome, on the opposite my pedal bikes feel squirrely now. I'm also lucky that we have really good ebike trails outside my garage so I can stay zone 3/4 for couple hours while having a blast riding. I still ride pedal bikes once or twice a week just to keep me honest but my power level has remained the same. Last, we have a pedal up bike park in Reno (Sky Tavern) where I can do 25miles, 5k' climbing for 8 laps with 4 minute dh runs in a little over 2 hours, pedal people do 1-2 runs or shuttle.
underrated comment. I like the workout I get riding my 54lb Timp Peak, just means I spend less time in the gym and more time riding...
underrated comment. I like the workout I get riding my 54lb Timp Peak, just means I spend less time in the gym and more time riding my bike, and as an ex D1 wrestler I used to be a gym rat. I don't find the EB to be cumbersome, on the opposite my pedal bikes feel squirrely now. I'm also lucky that we have really good ebike trails outside my garage so I can stay zone 3/4 for couple hours while having a blast riding. I still ride pedal bikes once or twice a week just to keep me honest but my power level has remained the same. Last, we have a pedal up bike park in Reno (Sky Tavern) where I can do 25miles, 5k' climbing for 8 laps with 4 minute dh runs in a little over 2 hours, pedal people do 1-2 runs or shuttle.
You don’t have to convince anyone in this forum, brother; you’re in good company.
I've been riding an Orbea Wild for the last couple months and have been really impressed. To be honest, I don't notice the weight of the bike while riding, at least most of the time. Hopping over big logs at low speeds and super tight jank takes more effort, but everywhere else, it feels like a regular bike with insane levels of traction.
Range hasn't been an issue at all thankfully. I've done some big backcountry loops in the 25-30 mile range with 5,000-6,000' of elevation and have had 25-30% battery remaining and that's with healthy use of the higher power modes.
For those with Bosch motors, how are you tuning the assist? I haven't really played with those settings at all yet. I've been riding a bit more in the blue setting recently because it seems to give plenty of assist assuming my cadence is high enough, and it maintains traction better on really steep climbs. At some point I'd like to do a big ass ride all in blue to see how far I can push the range.
I've been riding an Orbea Wild for the last couple months and have been really impressed. To be honest, I don't notice the weight of the...
I've been riding an Orbea Wild for the last couple months and have been really impressed. To be honest, I don't notice the weight of the bike while riding, at least most of the time. Hopping over big logs at low speeds and super tight jank takes more effort, but everywhere else, it feels like a regular bike with insane levels of traction.
Range hasn't been an issue at all thankfully. I've done some big backcountry loops in the 25-30 mile range with 5,000-6,000' of elevation and have had 25-30% battery remaining and that's with healthy use of the higher power modes.
For those with Bosch motors, how are you tuning the assist? I haven't really played with those settings at all yet. I've been riding a bit more in the blue setting recently because it seems to give plenty of assist assuming my cadence is high enough, and it maintains traction better on really steep climbs. At some point I'd like to do a big ass ride all in blue to see how far I can push the range.
On my SX motor I have blue and purple at only 3 for both power and acceleration. Turbo is fully boosted. Blue can go forever range-wise. Purple eats battery quicker because it fluctuates between trail and turbo depending on our effort, cadence, and terrain, but it’s still better power economy than turbo.
Id like to see all emtb's adobt the turned motor and have the battery slide out the bottom. Our current chainstays as long as they are should allow room for a slot at the bottom of the seatube above the motor with have the seatube flare out towards the rear. Extendable batteries could slide in like a dewalt drill cassette battery. All the weight would be central and free up a lot of space
Can anyone read the tea leaves?... How long until these lightweight setups have the same range and power as today's full power setup?
The Fazua 60 is a powerful and efficient mid power motor. They have announced a replacement 475 wh battery. Just a simple swap, same form factor and no weight gain. Furthermore, the motor already offers a boost function that bumps the power from 350 watts to 450 watts. I'd imagine at some point Fazua will offer a software upgrade that will allow higher watts than 350, full time.
IMO, that is getting pretty close to a full power in a mid-weight package.
Counter opinion: I weigh ~160 lbs without gear, and previously owned a Levo built up with burly components but still tried to make it light. It...
Counter opinion: I weigh ~160 lbs without gear, and previously owned a Levo built up with burly components but still tried to make it light. It was 52 lbs with pedals. That thing was a pig to wrestle around in tight fast corners or to get airborne off smaller rollers. All it wanted to do was monster truck. I sold it and got a Heckler SL which I've also built up similarly (Zeb, Vivid, DH tires) and it's 44ish lbs. It's way more playful and handles tight stuff way better. Those 8 lbs make a big difference when you don't weigh 200 lbs. I've actually come to prefer how my HSL tracks compared to my Nomad because it tracks so well, but also is easy to load up and pop. I wouldn't say no if you offered me a chance to make 2 lbs disappear and keep the exact same components, but it rides really, really well as it is.
Yep, don't underestimate those "few" extra pounds... I wrote something very similar in the tech rumors thread (I'll probably be tarred and feathered now for derailing...
Yep, don't underestimate those "few" extra pounds... I wrote something very similar in the tech rumors thread (I'll probably be tarred and feathered now for derailing it haha despite this "not derailment" thread existing):
To me, there's a big difference between 45 and 50 lbs in terms of how the bike feels on the trail, and in life in general. The 45 lbs bike I just spent two days on really did have me forgetting I was on an e-bike at times. Even hoisting the thing up onto a lift is "OK" (granted, I'm not a small dude and even though I'm old, the Viking genes are still going strong :-) ). A couple of months ago I spent two days riding a 50 lbs Turbo Levo, and although for general "shredding" that's a very fun and planted ride, I definitely noticed the extra heft. Popping the bike around on smaller features, moving it around in the air, all those little things feel a bit sluggish with that extra battery and motor weight.
As for the builds...yeah, a "real" enduro build will certainly add up to some weight. There's a 350 gram difference between a Fox 36 and a 38, just for starters. If you're gonna actually smash into stuff, you're gonna need real wheels and tires. Of course an "SL" e-bike with 140 mm of travel, a Fox 34 and flimsy trail casings, a 350 wh battery and a 50 nm motor will be significantly lighter, but let's not kid ourselves - it's not an enduro bike even if you can still point it down some rowdy stuff. To me, it's interesting that most of the Super Light e-bikes tend to be actual trail bikes, whereas the full-power ones are the proper enduro bikes. Because the manufacturers are either racing to make the "lightest one" or the one with the most power for climbing. Going forward, maybe we'll start to see bikes divided into 4 quadrants, defined on the one axis by type of riding, and the other by motor size/type.
Mid-power e-bikes are the 'biker's e-bike' imo. For the guys that want to maintain a very bike feel.
My theory is that full power e-bikes will all move to internal gear boxes, weigh 60#s, will be built to be reliable and often will be price sensitive (i.e. Al frames, base suspension, etc) and that the top tier e-bike tech will be directed towards the mid-power e-bikes.
I've been on ebikes since 2018 and it looks to me like the evolution will be the full fats cannibalising the light/mids. Most of the weight savings are coming from the light batteries, and those are what will massively improev in the next few years. Toyota and Volkswagen are promising commercially available solid state batteries with 500Wh/kg in 2027.
So take a Fazua ride 60: 2kg motor, 2.3kg battery for 60Nm and 450W, total electrics weight 4.3kg with 430Wh range.
Orbea Rise 2025 with EP801: 2.7kg motor, 2kg battery for 85Nm and 500W, total eletrics weight 4.7 with 420Wh range.
Or Orbea rise 630Wh: 2.7kg motor, 2.9kg battery for 85Nm and 500W, total eletrics weight 5.6kg with 630Wh range.
DJI system: 2.5kg motor, 2.9kg battery for 600Wh, 105Nm and 850W, total eletrics weight 5.4kg with 600Wh range.
So assuming a bit of catching up by the other players on motors in the next 2 years and solid state batteries materialising at affordable levels we should have:
Reliable 2.5kg motors with 100Nm+ and 800W+ power, combined with ~1kg 500Wh batteries or 2kg 1000Wh batteries. So overall systems at 3.5kg for 500Wh or 4.5kg with 1000Wh.
So taking the recent YT bike with Fazua as reference weight, you could have a burly 21kg with full power and all day range, or an equivalent with half the range and less power coming out around 19.5kg. Maybe in the trail bike segment, having a 17kg bike rather than a much more capable 18.5kg bike could be appealing. Too much range compromise for me just to save 1.5kg, also you need to take into account battery charging cycles, larger batteries will age much better.
Similar story for me, my 2018 commencal weighed 23kgs in DH mode, my current Giant reign with 800wh weighs 26kg. To be honest, as much as I would like a lighter bike, it rides very similarly to lighter bikes, it's all about that unsprung weight! Hence why I would love to test a Pinion MGU bike.
New slash + ..... is this an attempt at creating a bike i could sell my park bike and full power Reign e+ for?? I only ever ride my Reign in the 3rd power mode anyway
Not sure if Logical to thrash this at a bike park haha
Agree with the above, SC bullit = 22.5kg with Zeb, DD tyres, heavy alloy wheelset, and NX cassette. For a bike released in 2021 there’s still not much out there that’s lighter.
Counter opinion: I weigh ~160 lbs without gear, and previously owned a Levo built up with burly components but still tried to make it light. It...
Counter opinion: I weigh ~160 lbs without gear, and previously owned a Levo built up with burly components but still tried to make it light. It was 52 lbs with pedals. That thing was a pig to wrestle around in tight fast corners or to get airborne off smaller rollers. All it wanted to do was monster truck. I sold it and got a Heckler SL which I've also built up similarly (Zeb, Vivid, DH tires) and it's 44ish lbs. It's way more playful and handles tight stuff way better. Those 8 lbs make a big difference when you don't weigh 200 lbs. I've actually come to prefer how my HSL tracks compared to my Nomad because it tracks so well, but also is easy to load up and pop. I wouldn't say no if you offered me a chance to make 2 lbs disappear and keep the exact same components, but it rides really, really well as it is.
Yeah, weight matters a lot! But its also about where the weight sits! With the big and long intube batteries and high placed shocks the center of gravity got way higher than with external smaller batteries. You'll notice that on twisty trails aswell. If you install the 500 Wh battery in the levo you can get it down to around 22 kg. Orbea Wild can get close to 20 kg and the DJI bike is even lighter but they all have full power motors.
I've ridden a levo gen3 with 700 wh battery, a scott genius eride with 625 and a conway eWME mullet conversion extensively. The Levo rides the best all around although its better with the small battery and I need to fit a cascade link to make it plusher. The Scott rides the most sluggish with its 25kg weight and long ass chainstays. Somehow the steerer tube feels really flexy. Only the extra rear travel feels nice. The mullet converted 160 mm conway rides amazing on twisty trails because its the lightest with 23 kg and has a really short reach between 430 and 440mm which is too short for me but I compensated with a minus 2 degree angle set. With the levo and the big battery on tight trails it can happen that I can't correct the bike being off line because center of gravity is too high and I have to emergency dismount. With the conway I can basically put it where I want it because the center of gravity is so low from the battery and the shock.
My Reign with a burly wheelset & 2mm rotors with DD tyres(lighter than stock lol) fox 38, xt brakes, 800wh battery... it weighs 27.74kg(like 61lbs?) with alloy pedals & full 600ml bottle.
Honestly it feels lighter and more agile than my Ransom eride, Merida(the new one), my old rail & my turbo levo
Not sure what it is about this bike, despite being heavy on the scales it rides lighter.
That's weird. I mean the ransom has longer chainstays and more travel but I ususally instantly notice if a bike is a few kg lighter than another. Half a kilo? Not that noticeable if at all. Its more about where that sits (try to mount a half a kilo frame bag high up in your triangle and you'll know what I mean). But 1-2 kg should be noticeable in many scenarios when riding. It could be though that people with different weights/strenghts and riding styles and sensitivities are experiencing those things differently. I mean there are people who claim their EP8 doesn't rattle. Also suspension setup and ergonomics/geometry play a huge factor aswell in how light a bike feels on a trail. But the weight of a bike gets noticeable negatively on bunny hops, jumps, narrow, twisty trails also when they are steep and on mellow trails that are not that steep and rather easy/smooth. Then the planted feel that helps them in rough stuff makes them feel dead and sluggish. If you ride them without the motor assist you'll notice it.
My reaction was like WTF when i first jumped on the reign, its happy to hop down the trail - it jumps really good aswell - typical maestro really. I know guys who run the x2 shock say its like a bus for them, so maybe the float X is doing what its ment to for me.
Its such a good bike, Like im atleast 100kg + 27.74kg ebike and Used 45% battery for 1000m(25km) of elevation in active mode, which is 200% & 90nm. I was cooked but the bike was able to do lots more. None of my other bikes have gotten close... the yamaha is very smooth and powerful but lacks a bit of punch compared to bosch.
My reaction was like WTF when i first jumped on the reign, its happy to hop down the trail - it jumps really good aswell -...
My reaction was like WTF when i first jumped on the reign, its happy to hop down the trail - it jumps really good aswell - typical maestro really. I know guys who run the x2 shock say its like a bus for them, so maybe the float X is doing what its ment to for me.
Its such a good bike, Like im atleast 100kg + 27.74kg ebike and Used 45% battery for 1000m(25km) of elevation in active mode, which is 200% & 90nm. I was cooked but the bike was able to do lots more. None of my other bikes have gotten close... the yamaha is very smooth and powerful but lacks a bit of punch compared to bosch.
My Reign is 26kg on the dot with 800Wh, DH tyres and coil shock, but light drivetrain and wheels.
I got my coil shock tuned for the bike and my weight (Novyparts Novya), and was very surprised by how stiff and fast rebound the shock was setup with, works incredibly well though and makes the bike very playful... so long as I don't need to push or carry it.
I'll probably sell it for something else due to the dangerously low BB however, I have already bent 3 cranks in a year and had one massive crash with repercusions. A 320mm BB height on a 160mm bike is just stupid, but it seems there are manufacturing variations as others have found their bikes not to be so low.
My Reign is 26kg on the dot with 800Wh, DH tyres and coil shock, but light drivetrain and wheels. I got my coil shock tuned for the...
My Reign is 26kg on the dot with 800Wh, DH tyres and coil shock, but light drivetrain and wheels.
I got my coil shock tuned for the bike and my weight (Novyparts Novya), and was very surprised by how stiff and fast rebound the shock was setup with, works incredibly well though and makes the bike very playful... so long as I don't need to push or carry it.
I'll probably sell it for something else due to the dangerously low BB however, I have already bent 3 cranks in a year and had one massive crash with repercusions. A 320mm BB height on a 160mm bike is just stupid, but it seems there are manufacturing variations as others have found their bikes not to be so low.
Yeah mine seems pretty good, im using 165mm praxis eHD cranks and running in high, I've not hit them once. The emtb forums seem like everyone with the older dpx2 and especially the x2 were sitting in the stroke alot and hitting cranks. The coil crowd seems in that boat aswell. for reference im running a float X with stock spacer and its really good, Im probably running 28% sag or so.
I've hit the motor twice though on the same piece of trail lol, ive also hit chainrings here on normal bikes so not a big deal, its a massive root that is around a very tight slow corner.
I would love anther bosch powerd bike, but the gen 4 rail is carbon only and not available with a lower spec. crazy expensive here other option is the focus sam2 which is damn good value here, but had headset routing............. what a dumb way to ruin a really good bike.
But why? Weight power and size wise shimano had the best package until the dji bike was announced. Most bosch bikes are 25kg plus with a 625 wh battery and have extremely long chainstays. Bosch just gets credit because it was the most powerful/popular motor.
The reason many smaller companies fitted a shimano motor on their first ebikes is because they could design more freely and choose from third party batteries. Bosch only sells its system and I'm not sure if they even would have bothered during the corona boom years with smaller companies.
Sure most people just care about power and battery size but when you focus on the getting down part of the ride and handling many Bosch bikes are too heavy and have weird geo. Or they handle fine and are light like the orbea wild but have a non removable battery.
If shimano would have dealt with the rattle I would have gotten a shimano bike as my last purchase.
But why? Weight power and size wise shimano had the best package until the dji bike was announced. Most bosch bikes are 25kg plus with a...
But why? Weight power and size wise shimano had the best package until the dji bike was announced. Most bosch bikes are 25kg plus with a 625 wh battery and have extremely long chainstays. Bosch just gets credit because it was the most powerful/popular motor.
The reason many smaller companies fitted a shimano motor on their first ebikes is because they could design more freely and choose from third party batteries. Bosch only sells its system and I'm not sure if they even would have bothered during the corona boom years with smaller companies.
Sure most people just care about power and battery size but when you focus on the getting down part of the ride and handling many Bosch bikes are too heavy and have weird geo. Or they handle fine and are light like the orbea wild but have a non removable battery.
If shimano would have dealt with the rattle I would have gotten a shimano bike as my last purchase.
Which bikes are you talking about? Norco bikes are all on Bosch, and they’re dialed. Orbea uses Bosch, and the Wild has been a top choice according to everyone who has ridden it. Devinci is on Bosch. Pivot. Canyon. Scott. Trek.
Which bikes are you talking about? Norco bikes are all on Bosch, and they’re dialed. Orbea uses Bosch, and the Wild has been a top choice...
Which bikes are you talking about? Norco bikes are all on Bosch, and they’re dialed. Orbea uses Bosch, and the Wild has been a top choice according to everyone who has ridden it. Devinci is on Bosch. Pivot. Canyon. Scott. Trek.
Have you ridden different motors?
The Norco VLT bikes are indeed dialed when it comes to geometry and suspension performance.
System weights are very close. If one bike weighs more than another thats on the bike manufacturer. Shimano are throw away motors. The bic pens of the ebike motor world IMO.
Its fairly easy to get parts for bosch motors. They have stock worldwide. Theyre more powerful and they use battery power way more efficiently than shimano. A 625w bosch will last nearly as long as an 800w battery equiped shimano so actually theyre a lighter system. They also have range extender batteries and shimsno doesnt. The app is way better. Theyre rebuildable as well. There are independent motor service centers worldwide and almost all of them wont touch a shimsno motor. They recommend bosch and they can slmost completely rebuild them, and sometimes improve them. Both the shimano znd bosch have a rattle on the dh. Both have a similar 2 year warrantee but lots of reports of shitty available shimano stock if you have a problem, my self included. Currently bosch is tge best by a large margin.
Ill give pinion a yr or 2 to decide on them , as well as dji. Never buy first year systems or even 2yr old systems
Which bikes are you talking about? Norco bikes are all on Bosch, and they’re dialed. Orbea uses Bosch, and the Wild has been a top choice...
Which bikes are you talking about? Norco bikes are all on Bosch, and they’re dialed. Orbea uses Bosch, and the Wild has been a top choice according to everyone who has ridden it. Devinci is on Bosch. Pivot. Canyon. Scott. Trek.
The Norco VLT bikes are indeed dialed when it comes to geometry and suspension performance.
Weight? Not so much.
I don’t think anyone would argue that the Range or Sight VLT are contenders for being light big bikes, but the Fluid VLT line can hang with any mid-power bike when it comes to weight.
There are a new crop of full power bikes coming in at like 48/50 pounds that are pretty intriguing and seem to be the direction the whole market is going.
It’s a good time to be into emtb—the next five years are going to be wild.
But why? Weight power and size wise shimano had the best package until the dji bike was announced. Most bosch bikes are 25kg plus with a...
But why? Weight power and size wise shimano had the best package until the dji bike was announced. Most bosch bikes are 25kg plus with a 625 wh battery and have extremely long chainstays. Bosch just gets credit because it was the most powerful/popular motor.
The reason many smaller companies fitted a shimano motor on their first ebikes is because they could design more freely and choose from third party batteries. Bosch only sells its system and I'm not sure if they even would have bothered during the corona boom years with smaller companies.
Sure most people just care about power and battery size but when you focus on the getting down part of the ride and handling many Bosch bikes are too heavy and have weird geo. Or they handle fine and are light like the orbea wild but have a non removable battery.
If shimano would have dealt with the rattle I would have gotten a shimano bike as my last purchase.
Which bikes are you talking about? Norco bikes are all on Bosch, and they’re dialed. Orbea uses Bosch, and the Wild has been a top choice...
Which bikes are you talking about? Norco bikes are all on Bosch, and they’re dialed. Orbea uses Bosch, and the Wild has been a top choice according to everyone who has ridden it. Devinci is on Bosch. Pivot. Canyon. Scott. Trek.
Have you ridden different motors?
The Wild is an outlier because the battery is non removeable and the frame is carbon. The aluminium version weights 25 kg like most Bosch bikes do at least! Focus bikes for example are way heavier between 26 - 27 kg. Then there is the chainstays that always have been longer on Bosch bikes. They got shorter from Gen3 to Gen4 but are still pretty long on many bikes. Yeah, the norcos might be dialed (whatever that means) but they are heavy. And yeah I have ridden different motors. I'm just saying the shimano system has its advantages as it allows for more compact frame design and is overall 1-2 kgs lighter than the Bosch system.
If we all hit the weight room a little more often (or ever in my case) non of this would be a problem
underrated comment. I like the workout I get riding my 54lb Timp Peak, just means I spend less time in the gym and more time riding my bike, and as an ex D1 wrestler I used to be a gym rat. I don't find the EB to be cumbersome, on the opposite my pedal bikes feel squirrely now. I'm also lucky that we have really good ebike trails outside my garage so I can stay zone 3/4 for couple hours while having a blast riding. I still ride pedal bikes once or twice a week just to keep me honest but my power level has remained the same. Last, we have a pedal up bike park in Reno (Sky Tavern) where I can do 25miles, 5k' climbing for 8 laps with 4 minute dh runs in a little over 2 hours, pedal people do 1-2 runs or shuttle.
You don’t have to convince anyone in this forum, brother; you’re in good company.
ebiker arms make mountain biker arms look like roadie arms.
Haa im going to use that.....when i have long sleeves on
I've been riding an Orbea Wild for the last couple months and have been really impressed. To be honest, I don't notice the weight of the bike while riding, at least most of the time. Hopping over big logs at low speeds and super tight jank takes more effort, but everywhere else, it feels like a regular bike with insane levels of traction.
Range hasn't been an issue at all thankfully. I've done some big backcountry loops in the 25-30 mile range with 5,000-6,000' of elevation and have had 25-30% battery remaining and that's with healthy use of the higher power modes.
For those with Bosch motors, how are you tuning the assist? I haven't really played with those settings at all yet. I've been riding a bit more in the blue setting recently because it seems to give plenty of assist assuming my cadence is high enough, and it maintains traction better on really steep climbs. At some point I'd like to do a big ass ride all in blue to see how far I can push the range.
On my SX motor I have blue and purple at only 3 for both power and acceleration. Turbo is fully boosted. Blue can go forever range-wise. Purple eats battery quicker because it fluctuates between trail and turbo depending on our effort, cadence, and terrain, but it’s still better power economy than turbo.
Pro DHer's adding weight, 500g in this pic, trying to be like eMTBer's. Clearly weight in that area is a plus.
Id like to see all emtb's adobt the turned motor and have the battery slide out the bottom. Our current chainstays as long as they are should allow room for a slot at the bottom of the seatube above the motor with have the seatube flare out towards the rear. Extendable batteries could slide in like a dewalt drill cassette battery. All the weight would be central and free up a lot of space
The Fazua 60 is a powerful and efficient mid power motor. They have announced a replacement 475 wh battery. Just a simple swap, same form factor and no weight gain. Furthermore, the motor already offers a boost function that bumps the power from 350 watts to 450 watts. I'd imagine at some point Fazua will offer a software upgrade that will allow higher watts than 350, full time.
IMO, that is getting pretty close to a full power in a mid-weight package.
Mid-power e-bikes are the 'biker's e-bike' imo. For the guys that want to maintain a very bike feel.
My theory is that full power e-bikes will all move to internal gear boxes, weigh 60#s, will be built to be reliable and often will be price sensitive (i.e. Al frames, base suspension, etc) and that the top tier e-bike tech will be directed towards the mid-power e-bikes.
I've been on ebikes since 2018 and it looks to me like the evolution will be the full fats cannibalising the light/mids. Most of the weight savings are coming from the light batteries, and those are what will massively improev in the next few years. Toyota and Volkswagen are promising commercially available solid state batteries with 500Wh/kg in 2027.
So take a Fazua ride 60: 2kg motor, 2.3kg battery for 60Nm and 450W, total electrics weight 4.3kg with 430Wh range.
Orbea Rise 2025 with EP801: 2.7kg motor, 2kg battery for 85Nm and 500W, total eletrics weight 4.7 with 420Wh range.
Or Orbea rise 630Wh: 2.7kg motor, 2.9kg battery for 85Nm and 500W, total eletrics weight 5.6kg with 630Wh range.
DJI system: 2.5kg motor, 2.9kg battery for 600Wh, 105Nm and 850W, total eletrics weight 5.4kg with 600Wh range.
So assuming a bit of catching up by the other players on motors in the next 2 years and solid state batteries materialising at affordable levels we should have:
Reliable 2.5kg motors with 100Nm+ and 800W+ power, combined with ~1kg 500Wh batteries or 2kg 1000Wh batteries. So overall systems at 3.5kg for 500Wh or 4.5kg with 1000Wh.
So taking the recent YT bike with Fazua as reference weight, you could have a burly 21kg with full power and all day range, or an equivalent with half the range and less power coming out around 19.5kg. Maybe in the trail bike segment, having a 17kg bike rather than a much more capable 18.5kg bike could be appealing. Too much range compromise for me just to save 1.5kg, also you need to take into account battery charging cycles, larger batteries will age much better.
we are going backwards it seems.
my old 2018 Merida E-160 in large (alloy) 540Wh battery (external), double down tyres, fox 36 factory, Float X2 = 22.9kg
So that's full power, decent enough battery to do 60km & 1100m climbing and enduro running gear that can take a beating. (it did)
My dream is my current bike (Norco range VLT) with 720Wh coming in at 22kg lol. I'm only 8kg over!
Similar story for me, my 2018 commencal weighed 23kgs in DH mode, my current Giant reign with 800wh weighs 26kg. To be honest, as much as I would like a lighter bike, it rides very similarly to lighter bikes, it's all about that unsprung weight! Hence why I would love to test a Pinion MGU bike.
New slash + .....
is this an attempt at creating a bike i could sell my park bike and full power Reign e+ for??
I only ever ride my Reign in the 3rd power mode anyway
Not sure if Logical to thrash this at a bike park haha
Agree with the above, SC bullit = 22.5kg with Zeb, DD tyres, heavy alloy wheelset, and NX cassette. For a bike released in 2021 there’s still not much out there that’s lighter.
Yeah, weight matters a lot! But its also about where the weight sits! With the big and long intube batteries and high placed shocks the center of gravity got way higher than with external smaller batteries. You'll notice that on twisty trails aswell. If you install the 500 Wh battery in the levo you can get it down to around 22 kg. Orbea Wild can get close to 20 kg and the DJI bike is even lighter but they all have full power motors.
I've ridden a levo gen3 with 700 wh battery, a scott genius eride with 625 and a conway eWME mullet conversion extensively. The Levo rides the best all around although its better with the small battery and I need to fit a cascade link to make it plusher. The Scott rides the most sluggish with its 25kg weight and long ass chainstays. Somehow the steerer tube feels really flexy. Only the extra rear travel feels nice. The mullet converted 160 mm conway rides amazing on twisty trails because its the lightest with 23 kg and has a really short reach between 430 and 440mm which is too short for me but I compensated with a minus 2 degree angle set. With the levo and the big battery on tight trails it can happen that I can't correct the bike being off line because center of gravity is too high and I have to emergency dismount. With the conway I can basically put it where I want it because the center of gravity is so low from the battery and the shock.
My Reign with a burly wheelset & 2mm rotors with DD tyres(lighter than stock lol)
fox 38, xt brakes, 800wh battery... it weighs 27.74kg(like 61lbs?) with alloy pedals & full 600ml bottle.
Honestly it feels lighter and more agile than my Ransom eride, Merida(the new one), my old rail & my turbo levo
Not sure what it is about this bike, despite being heavy on the scales it rides lighter.
That's weird. I mean the ransom has longer chainstays and more travel but I ususally instantly notice if a bike is a few kg lighter than another. Half a kilo? Not that noticeable if at all. Its more about where that sits (try to mount a half a kilo frame bag high up in your triangle and you'll know what I mean). But 1-2 kg should be noticeable in many scenarios when riding. It could be though that people with different weights/strenghts and riding styles and sensitivities are experiencing those things differently. I mean there are people who claim their EP8 doesn't rattle. Also suspension setup and ergonomics/geometry play a huge factor aswell in how light a bike feels on a trail. But the weight of a bike gets noticeable negatively on bunny hops, jumps, narrow, twisty trails also when they are steep and on mellow trails that are not that steep and rather easy/smooth. Then the planted feel that helps them in rough stuff makes them feel dead and sluggish. If you ride them without the motor assist you'll notice it.
My reaction was like WTF when i first jumped on the reign, its happy to hop down the trail - it jumps really good aswell - typical maestro really.
I know guys who run the x2 shock say its like a bus for them, so maybe the float X is doing what its ment to for me.
Its such a good bike, Like im atleast 100kg + 27.74kg ebike and Used 45% battery for 1000m(25km) of elevation in active mode, which is 200% & 90nm. I was cooked but the bike was able to do lots more.
None of my other bikes have gotten close... the yamaha is very smooth and powerful but lacks a bit of punch compared to bosch.
My Reign is 26kg on the dot with 800Wh, DH tyres and coil shock, but light drivetrain and wheels.
I got my coil shock tuned for the bike and my weight (Novyparts Novya), and was very surprised by how stiff and fast rebound the shock was setup with, works incredibly well though and makes the bike very playful... so long as I don't need to push or carry it.
I'll probably sell it for something else due to the dangerously low BB however, I have already bent 3 cranks in a year and had one massive crash with repercusions. A 320mm BB height on a 160mm bike is just stupid, but it seems there are manufacturing variations as others have found their bikes not to be so low.
Yeah mine seems pretty good, im using 165mm praxis eHD cranks and running in high, I've not hit them once.
The emtb forums seem like everyone with the older dpx2 and especially the x2 were sitting in the stroke alot and hitting cranks.
The coil crowd seems in that boat aswell.
for reference im running a float X with stock spacer and its really good, Im probably running 28% sag or so.
I've hit the motor twice though on the same piece of trail lol, ive also hit chainrings here on normal bikes so not a big deal, its a massive root that is around a very tight slow corner.
I would love anther bosch powerd bike, but the gen 4 rail is carbon only and not available with a lower spec. crazy expensive here
other option is the focus sam2 which is damn good value here, but had headset routing............. what a dumb way to ruin a really good bike.
There was a rumor in the tech thread about brands switching from Shimano to Bosch. Anyone wanna spill the beans and let us know who?
probably everyone.
Marin just switched
Bosch, yamaha or Befang are the only good options IMO, You get the odd vocal specilized fanboy with brose but they are just wind.
The next gen motors from DJI etc will be fantastic.. Shimano is miles behind.. again...
Our local shop is a big time shimano fan but they refuse to sell shimano Ebikes lol.
But why? Weight power and size wise shimano had the best package until the dji bike was announced. Most bosch bikes are 25kg plus with a 625 wh battery and have extremely long chainstays. Bosch just gets credit because it was the most powerful/popular motor.
The reason many smaller companies fitted a shimano motor on their first ebikes is because they could design more freely and choose from third party batteries. Bosch only sells its system and I'm not sure if they even would have bothered during the corona boom years with smaller companies.
Sure most people just care about power and battery size but when you focus on the getting down part of the ride and handling many Bosch bikes are too heavy and have weird geo. Or they handle fine and are light like the orbea wild but have a non removable battery.
If shimano would have dealt with the rattle I would have gotten a shimano bike as my last purchase.
Which bikes are you talking about? Norco bikes are all on Bosch, and they’re dialed. Orbea uses Bosch, and the Wild has been a top choice according to everyone who has ridden it. Devinci is on Bosch. Pivot. Canyon. Scott. Trek.
Have you ridden different motors?
The Norco VLT bikes are indeed dialed when it comes to geometry and suspension performance.
Weight? Not so much.
System weights are very close. If one bike weighs more than another thats on the bike manufacturer. Shimano are throw away motors. The bic pens of the ebike motor world IMO.
Its fairly easy to get parts for bosch motors. They have stock worldwide. Theyre more powerful and they use battery power way more efficiently than shimano. A 625w bosch will last nearly as long as an 800w battery equiped shimano so actually theyre a lighter system. They also have range extender batteries and shimsno doesnt. The app is way better. Theyre rebuildable as well. There are independent motor service centers worldwide and almost all of them wont touch a shimsno motor. They recommend bosch and they can slmost completely rebuild them, and sometimes improve them. Both the shimano znd bosch have a rattle on the dh. Both have a similar 2 year warrantee but lots of reports of shitty available shimano stock if you have a problem, my self included. Currently bosch is tge best by a large margin.
Ill give pinion a yr or 2 to decide on them , as well as dji. Never buy first year systems or even 2yr old systems
I don’t think anyone would argue that the Range or Sight VLT are contenders for being light big bikes, but the Fluid VLT line can hang with any mid-power bike when it comes to weight.
There are a new crop of full power bikes coming in at like 48/50 pounds that are pretty intriguing and seem to be the direction the whole market is going.
It’s a good time to be into emtb—the next five years are going to be wild.
The Wild is an outlier because the battery is non removeable and the frame is carbon. The aluminium version weights 25 kg like most Bosch bikes do at least! Focus bikes for example are way heavier between 26 - 27 kg. Then there is the chainstays that always have been longer on Bosch bikes. They got shorter from Gen3 to Gen4 but are still pretty long on many bikes. Yeah, the norcos might be dialed (whatever that means) but they are heavy. And yeah I have ridden different motors. I'm just saying the shimano system has its advantages as it allows for more compact frame design and is overall 1-2 kgs lighter than the Bosch system.
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