I've noticed some gloves cause me problems because they are too vague and require me to grab the bars tighter to avoid losing my grip. I run super thin lightweight gloves to help with this.
Meanwhile I found padded gloves are insanely vague, create more pressure points, and shift around so much requiring me to grip harder and creating more problems. They seem to help some others, so YMMV.
I agree with others who've discussed the benefits of powerful brakes, big rotors, and tall bars for fighting off arm pump. Ditto for hand exercises and...
I agree with others who've discussed the benefits of powerful brakes, big rotors, and tall bars for fighting off arm pump. Ditto for hand exercises and changing brake lever position, which are free.
Knowledge is another thing that helps with arm pump that can’t be purchased. Good suspension settings, body position, and riding technique can take a rider with stiff arms and horrible claw hands to a rider who's looking far ahead in sections, braking hard and then getting off the brakes, and riding with a relaxed upper body. But you can’t buy that. You can buy coaching, and a good coach will help with some of those things. But there are a lot of questionable MTB coaches, and even if you find a good one you can't bring them on every ride. The temptation to buy things to fix problems is something I struggle with constantly, but I try to remind myself that “new” doesn’t hold a candle to “adjusted correctly.”
I cannot overstate the importance of suspension setup for fighting off arm pump and hand pain. If your fork is packing down in the travel, you're screwed. All your weight is going to shift onto your hands with every impact and every braking event, and then you're going to need to brake for longer and longer each time because you're hunched over in a compromised body position, which means your hands are going to be pounded by braking even longer than you otherwise would be. Unfortunately, most of the things I would adjust on a fork are counterintuitive, like increasing spring rate, adding compression damping, or speeding up rebound. Most riders would fight me if I tried to make their fork stiffer to help ease hand cramps.
And unfortunately, "faster" or "slower" are not quantities that can be communicated on a forum or in a book or video. Ditto for "firmer" or "softer." You have to have someone smarter than you who's physically there to push up and down on the fork. This sport pretty much requires older/wiser/faster/more talented friends to make it work. There are too many things to learn. The book would have to be be 4000 pages. I say that as someone who's smarter than they once were, not smart enough, and was dumb for a long time.
It's shocking to me how few people are willing to actually go out and try different suspension setups, even off the wall ones. It was a revelation in control and comfort for me when I increased compression damping on my fork and shock, only to find it helped me ride longer without having to stop due to my hand crap and I had more control.
The issue is that a lot of people have the spring setup wrong OR the fork is fubar so they have to compensate by backing off the damper or relying on spring pressure. Some forks have dampers that spike badly no matter where the adjuster is, others (IME GRIPX2, Era v2.1, Ohlins RXF36 m.2, Mezzer Pro) you can really crank it in without it getting harsh. The other issue is friction, I've found a lot of forks bind or have excessive friction and that creates another damper of sorts that prevents you from running the fork where you should. They ride these forks labeled "overdamped", but the reality is they have architectural or assembly flaws that make them harsh regardless of what the setting is.
Same with rebound, but I've found that easier to dial in on coil forks than air ones in particular. The faster I can run it, the better the fork feels and the less discomfort I get, within reason of course.
This makes a huge difference for me, but I agree most of what people would think about the setup is counterintuitive.
never had issues untill a couple of weeks ago. so i reflected on all changes i did during that time:
rising stem
less progression on the fork
more compression on the fork
less rebound on the shock
started with eliminating exactly in that order to find out what caused it. i thought it obviously had something to do with the bar as i had tired hands. but no it was the "least ovious": rebound on the shock was 2 clicks to fast. went back. all good again!
Don't knock them till you try them. I suffered with terrible arm pump and hand pain with your standard style grip (DMR Deathgrips and ODI Ruffians). Never again. I had made all of the suggested changes to suspension setup / brake lever angle and throw etc prior to changing the grip but I was still struggling. Particularly during holidays abroad, where you're riding full on for several days in a row.
I was recommended the GA3's by a local in Morzine and they have been an absolute game changer. No more hand pain and I hardly ever suffer from arm pump any more. I also switched out to a thinner glove so that may have also had a small impact too.
Definitely give them a go though if you're struggling I can't recommend them enough.
All these bar bends grips and whatevers are just compensating for weak muscles, and/or tight neck, shoulder, pec and forearm mechanics.
I Always battled arm pump in MX. Fixed the above and bingo. Motos for days. Took a while to understand me and get it done.
Its a sum of all, get that sorted and you wont care what grips, bars etc. you will just smash the longest descent’s the brakes can handle.
I never had luck with ergonomic grips. I found they forced me once again to grip harder because they don't allow your fingers the proper grip around the bar. I tried various iterations of these and the most promising ones I have, but haven't tried yet, are the SQLabs. They at least provide a structured ergonomic grip that allows your fingers to wrap around and grip the bar without losing contact. Every Ergon grip I tried was either too hard of a compound or compromised grip strength too much. Again I think this depends on what your issue is and there isn't a one size fits all solution. There are a lot of potential problems between your shoulder and where your hand contacts the bar, so it's really not possible to narrow it down to one solution that works for everyone.
I have also ordered some of the new ODI Vanquish grips to see if they help and how much. It sounds promising from folks I know who saw them at Sea Otter, but we'll see how much they help or hurt.
I never had luck with ergonomic grips. I found they forced me once again to grip harder because they don't allow your fingers the proper grip...
I never had luck with ergonomic grips. I found they forced me once again to grip harder because they don't allow your fingers the proper grip around the bar. I tried various iterations of these and the most promising ones I have, but haven't tried yet, are the SQLabs. They at least provide a structured ergonomic grip that allows your fingers to wrap around and grip the bar without losing contact. Every Ergon grip I tried was either too hard of a compound or compromised grip strength too much. Again I think this depends on what your issue is and there isn't a one size fits all solution. There are a lot of potential problems between your shoulder and where your hand contacts the bar, so it's really not possible to narrow it down to one solution that works for everyone.
I have also ordered some of the new ODI Vanquish grips to see if they help and how much. It sounds promising from folks I know who saw them at Sea Otter, but we'll see how much they help or hurt.
I have the SQ Lab 711 in large and they're really nice. Gotta first nail the roll of your bar then adjust the roll of the grips. They're quite soft, like Ritchey True Grips if you're old enough to remember those. They're kind of malleable in your hands but not as compressible as silicone grips. I like them a lot. I have them on one bike and Oneup thicks on another bike. I like them both equally.
Lots of good points being brought up, but it really boils down to three things for most people who don't have a diagnosed medical condition:
1. Correct tire pressure
2. Servicing your fork at some point in its life
3. The one no one likes- Take it easy at the bike part, esp. early season. This is the most important one. Biking is not like skiing, you can't do endless runs all day. Imagine if you only ever skied moguls. Could you crank out run after run without resting? Now imagine you had to do moguls on your hands and arms. Biking is more intense on your hands/wrists than even this.
Oneup carbon bars. Setting brake level angle in line with my arms in the ol' "attack" position. If your brakes have them, set pad engagement so...
Oneup carbon bars. Setting brake level angle in line with my arms in the ol' "attack" position. If your brakes have them, set pad engagement so levers get as close to grips/fingers as possible at full stop. Cutting 10mm off bar width until I found the right width for me (this was more for sholders but it all aligns).
Contrary to popular opinion OneUp carbon bars made my hand fatigue 10x worse. I think that they aren't really as compliant when you cut them down...
Contrary to popular opinion OneUp carbon bars made my hand fatigue 10x worse. I think that they aren't really as compliant when you cut them down to 750... I actually went back to aluminium bars because of them and feel much better now. Running 40mm of rise helped immediately aswell. Also: brakes with "modulation" or huge lever throw are what caused armpump for me aswell, so no Codes or Curas.
Lots of info on bar compliance from this BikeRumor Bar Test
https://bikerumor.com/does-handlebar-compliance-make-a-difference-faction-bike-studio-blind-test/
Where they weighted the bar(see photo below), the width of 800-750 shouldn't really matter...
Where they weighted the bar(see photo below), the width of 800-750 shouldn't really matter, the 35mm rise and ebike bar actually seem to be a tad softer. Numbers on paper don't lie but ride feel to different people could "feel" different.
That test was pretty interesting - I hadn't seen that one! One thing I wonder with bar stiffness is related to frequency - The stiffness of the bar combined with the mass of the rider and other resonant frequencies in the front end could mean a more compliant bar is actually amplifying vibration in a certain range. So that rider might suit a slightly stiffer bar, or an even more compliant one, or attempt to find the cause of that vibration.
As for training/don't death grip/going to the gym - those things might help but it's one of those chicken and egg situatiosn where its much easier to hold the bars lightly if its not trying to shake you to pieces - sure getting stronger will help, but reducing the amount of feedback in the first place will help even more, and make it easier to relax your grip
That test was pretty interesting - I hadn't seen that one! One thing I wonder with bar stiffness is related to frequency - The stiffness of...
That test was pretty interesting - I hadn't seen that one! One thing I wonder with bar stiffness is related to frequency - The stiffness of the bar combined with the mass of the rider and other resonant frequencies in the front end could mean a more compliant bar is actually amplifying vibration in a certain range. So that rider might suit a slightly stiffer bar, or an even more compliant one, or attempt to find the cause of that vibration.
As for training/don't death grip/going to the gym - those things might help but it's one of those chicken and egg situatiosn where its much easier to hold the bars lightly if its not trying to shake you to pieces - sure getting stronger will help, but reducing the amount of feedback in the first place will help even more, and make it easier to relax your grip
1000% agree. Also, just because you're strong enough to hang on to the handlebar doesn't mean you're riding well, or fast. All of those impacts you're feeling in your hands are literally heat in your joints, dispersing your forward speed and momentum into thin air, aka suspension loss. In downhill riding (DH, enduro, etc), we go to great lengths to tune the suspension in our tires, forks, and shocks to minimize suspension loss. Those vibrations and impacts in your hands are lost kinetic energy that, all else being equal, we'd prefer to keep moving with your body mass down the hill. Sprung mass vs. unsprung mass and such.
So while it's possible to get stronger so you can hang onto a bad bike setup, there are benefits to a smoother bike setup beyond the obvious fact that it's more comfortable to use.
I don’t believe in “hype”. I hate it. Game changer. What Schmitty said is true. What RF produced is real. I experienced it and, now, I live it. Believe me, they chased OneUp and killed them. Do it. ERA is real
Contrary to popular opinion OneUp carbon bars made my hand fatigue 10x worse. I think that they aren't really as compliant when you cut them down...
Contrary to popular opinion OneUp carbon bars made my hand fatigue 10x worse. I think that they aren't really as compliant when you cut them down to 750... I actually went back to aluminium bars because of them and feel much better now. Running 40mm of rise helped immediately aswell. Also: brakes with "modulation" or huge lever throw are what caused armpump for me aswell, so no Codes or Curas.
Lots of info on bar compliance from this BikeRumor Bar Test
https://bikerumor.com/does-handlebar-compliance-make-a-difference-faction-bike-studio-blind-test/
Where they weighted the bar(see photo below), the width of 800-750 shouldn't really matter...
Where they weighted the bar(see photo below), the width of 800-750 shouldn't really matter, the 35mm rise and ebike bar actually seem to be a tad softer. Numbers on paper don't lie but ride feel to different people could "feel" different.
That test was pretty interesting - I hadn't seen that one! One thing I wonder with bar stiffness is related to frequency - The stiffness of...
That test was pretty interesting - I hadn't seen that one! One thing I wonder with bar stiffness is related to frequency - The stiffness of the bar combined with the mass of the rider and other resonant frequencies in the front end could mean a more compliant bar is actually amplifying vibration in a certain range. So that rider might suit a slightly stiffer bar, or an even more compliant one, or attempt to find the cause of that vibration.
As for training/don't death grip/going to the gym - those things might help but it's one of those chicken and egg situatiosn where its much easier to hold the bars lightly if its not trying to shake you to pieces - sure getting stronger will help, but reducing the amount of feedback in the first place will help even more, and make it easier to relax your grip
Softer structures rarely vibrate at higher frequencies, unless specifically excited by them. Plus if talking carbon, the inherent characteristic of it, compared to aluminium, is more damping in the structure. Besides the possibility to tune it even further with the use of layup and material choice.
That test was pretty interesting - I hadn't seen that one! One thing I wonder with bar stiffness is related to frequency - The stiffness of...
That test was pretty interesting - I hadn't seen that one! One thing I wonder with bar stiffness is related to frequency - The stiffness of the bar combined with the mass of the rider and other resonant frequencies in the front end could mean a more compliant bar is actually amplifying vibration in a certain range. So that rider might suit a slightly stiffer bar, or an even more compliant one, or attempt to find the cause of that vibration.
As for training/don't death grip/going to the gym - those things might help but it's one of those chicken and egg situatiosn where its much easier to hold the bars lightly if its not trying to shake you to pieces - sure getting stronger will help, but reducing the amount of feedback in the first place will help even more, and make it easier to relax your grip
1000% agree. Also, just because you're strong enough to hang on to the handlebar doesn't mean you're riding well, or fast. All of those impacts you're...
1000% agree. Also, just because you're strong enough to hang on to the handlebar doesn't mean you're riding well, or fast. All of those impacts you're feeling in your hands are literally heat in your joints, dispersing your forward speed and momentum into thin air, aka suspension loss. In downhill riding (DH, enduro, etc), we go to great lengths to tune the suspension in our tires, forks, and shocks to minimize suspension loss. Those vibrations and impacts in your hands are lost kinetic energy that, all else being equal, we'd prefer to keep moving with your body mass down the hill. Sprung mass vs. unsprung mass and such.
So while it's possible to get stronger so you can hang onto a bad bike setup, there are benefits to a smoother bike setup beyond the obvious fact that it's more comfortable to use.
Of course the benefits of correct suspension are paramount to going fast for long. But a 5 min run hard as you can shouldn’t blow your arms up.
Of course the benefits of correct suspension are paramount to going fast for long. But a 5 min run hard as you can shouldn’t blow your...
Of course the benefits of correct suspension are paramount to going fast for long. But a 5 min run hard as you can shouldn’t blow your arms up.
Smoother suspension will make you faster on a 20-minute race run or a 2-minute race run. "Comfort" can serve as a canary in the coal mine for bike setup, because if you're getting beat up and bounced around by your handlebars, that probably isn't a fast or efficient setup.
A couple years ago Loic Bruni was doing a video play-by-play of his 3rd place race run at the season opener World Cup race at Lourdes, and he was talking about how he went up in compression a couple clicks between qualifying and finals, and felt like he could barely keep the bike on the track, getting bounced around and knocked off line. Ultimately, he had to slow down his riding to stay on track because his bike wasn't tracking smoothly. He said "the bike was too fast for me," but I don't think any of us think Loic has a fitness problem, that he needed to do more rock climbing or grip strength exercises or ride more moto before his race run at Lourdes. His bike was too stiff, and he needed to make it softer.
What I'm saying is that, for many people, they have the opposite problem. Their fork gets sucked into every hole and pounds their hands to death because it's too soft and too slow. Beginners with agonizing claw hands are almost always blown away when you make a few free adjustments to their bike setup.
Smoother suspension will make you faster on a 20-minute race run or a 2-minute race run. "Comfort" can serve as a canary in the coal mine...
Smoother suspension will make you faster on a 20-minute race run or a 2-minute race run. "Comfort" can serve as a canary in the coal mine for bike setup, because if you're getting beat up and bounced around by your handlebars, that probably isn't a fast or efficient setup.
A couple years ago Loic Bruni was doing a video play-by-play of his 3rd place race run at the season opener World Cup race at Lourdes, and he was talking about how he went up in compression a couple clicks between qualifying and finals, and felt like he could barely keep the bike on the track, getting bounced around and knocked off line. Ultimately, he had to slow down his riding to stay on track because his bike wasn't tracking smoothly. He said "the bike was too fast for me," but I don't think any of us think Loic has a fitness problem, that he needed to do more rock climbing or grip strength exercises or ride more moto before his race run at Lourdes. His bike was too stiff, and he needed to make it softer.
What I'm saying is that, for many people, they have the opposite problem. Their fork gets sucked into every hole and pounds their hands to death because it's too soft and too slow. Beginners with agonizing claw hands are almost always blown away when you make a few free adjustments to their bike setup.
Years ago we were riding down those long, 2,000+ foot descents in Jackson Hole, constantly waiting for my buddy's girlfriend. I decided to take a look at her setup (a 130 pound woman). Her tires were no joke like 40 PSI, she had that old Enduro 26" with the dual crown fork, travel adjust, and of course in the lower position. Rear shock locked out, both shocks way too much air, rebound too slow. After we did some trailside tuning, she started keeping up much better haha.
Lots of info on bar compliance from this BikeRumor Bar Test
https://bikerumor.com/does-handlebar-compliance-make-a-difference-faction-bike-studio-blind-test/
Where they weighted the bar(see photo below), the width of 800-750 shouldn't really matter...
Where they weighted the bar(see photo below), the width of 800-750 shouldn't really matter, the 35mm rise and ebike bar actually seem to be a tad softer. Numbers on paper don't lie but ride feel to different people could "feel" different.
That test was pretty interesting - I hadn't seen that one! One thing I wonder with bar stiffness is related to frequency - The stiffness of...
That test was pretty interesting - I hadn't seen that one! One thing I wonder with bar stiffness is related to frequency - The stiffness of the bar combined with the mass of the rider and other resonant frequencies in the front end could mean a more compliant bar is actually amplifying vibration in a certain range. So that rider might suit a slightly stiffer bar, or an even more compliant one, or attempt to find the cause of that vibration.
As for training/don't death grip/going to the gym - those things might help but it's one of those chicken and egg situatiosn where its much easier to hold the bars lightly if its not trying to shake you to pieces - sure getting stronger will help, but reducing the amount of feedback in the first place will help even more, and make it easier to relax your grip
Softer structures rarely vibrate at higher frequencies, unless specifically excited by them. Plus if talking carbon, the inherent characteristic of it, compared to aluminium, is more...
Softer structures rarely vibrate at higher frequencies, unless specifically excited by them. Plus if talking carbon, the inherent characteristic of it, compared to aluminium, is more damping in the structure. Besides the possibility to tune it even further with the use of layup and material choice.
Yup - softer structures will resonate at lower frequencies - that was my point. Mountain bikes generate a lot of vibration in the 3-20Hz region in particular (from my measurements) so if a handlebar is resonating and amplifying vibration in this range it will be very noticeable. So if your particular bar is amplifying these lower frequencies it is probably better to go with something stiffer as intensity of vibration is much lower and usually filtered out by the tyres. I went looking for some example graphs so checked the white paper from Vibrocore, and thats exactly what they were doing, as well as adding damping material to the part - https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2363/5997/files/Spank_VibrocoreTM_Frequency_Analysis_Test_Report.pdf?17652700425391016425
If you're at the bike park using a ski lift, and its your 6th "5 min run" of the day, its not muscle fatigue thats hurting...
If you're at the bike park using a ski lift, and its your 6th "5 min run" of the day, its not muscle fatigue thats hurting you, its joint pain.
I take a lot of time with my suspension. For performance. Rebound is for adjusting comfort between hard choppy and smooth. Tires to an extent. Comp is for hold up. I dont have the luxury of a team doing suspension settings. The small range in my 40’s and Deluxe DH are it. The rest i muscle.
I run 35mm burgtec carbon bars and grips. Because i like them, not because im masking/curing something.
6 x 5 min bike park runs arent hurting anything body wise when on my DH bike. Well my rims tbh. I ride loads and MX twice a week. If i didnt ride heaps and work on core and body mechanics id for sure look for a short cut…ive been there. Its not the answer.
I suffered with Sore hands/fingers for ages
The two biggest helpers were:
Oneup bars
Not death gripping, and this is where good grips like the new...
I suffered with Sore hands/fingers for ages
The two biggest helpers were:
Oneup bars
Not death gripping, and this is where good grips like the new odi reflex come in - these are amazing IMO. (not death gripping also elimated arm pump for me)
Next was brakes...
You need to look at braking efficiency and not 'bring to a stop' - Brakes like shimano Have poor Braking efficiency and because of this many people Drag their brakes which will kill your hands.
I started running hope tech 4 v4 brakes and they were basically the end all issues deal, They were great brakes
However, Mavens had come out and we had a 4 day trip to central South island NZ planned - I decided to install Mavens.
Took me a lap to dial in the feel of the contact and reach.
I did that entire trip and shuttled laps for 4 days with having to ever stop riding because my hands were sore - These brakes are now on all my Bikes, they are amazing.
Learning to Use powerful brakes Is an important Part of bike performance, Stay off them and Grab when you need to SLOW DOWN, Not stop.
As mentioned above, Ensuring your fork Travels smoothly through its stroke is a massive part aswell, No amount of tuning will help a binding fork, Many forks feel like ass and many consumers have no idea what a nice fork actually feels like.
Purely my experience and how I solved it.
So you had tech 4v4 and moved to mavens? how does that help given that hopes have more power and ligher action lever compared to the Mavens?
Oneup carbon bars. Setting brake level angle in line with my arms in the ol' "attack" position. If your brakes have them, set pad engagement so...
Oneup carbon bars. Setting brake level angle in line with my arms in the ol' "attack" position. If your brakes have them, set pad engagement so levers get as close to grips/fingers as possible at full stop. Cutting 10mm off bar width until I found the right width for me (this was more for sholders but it all aligns).
Contrary to popular opinion OneUp carbon bars made my hand fatigue 10x worse. I think that they aren't really as compliant when you cut them down...
Contrary to popular opinion OneUp carbon bars made my hand fatigue 10x worse. I think that they aren't really as compliant when you cut them down to 750... I actually went back to aluminium bars because of them and feel much better now. Running 40mm of rise helped immediately aswell. Also: brakes with "modulation" or huge lever throw are what caused armpump for me aswell, so no Codes or Curas.
Hey @alerad I'm curious what aluminum bars you ended up going with and what clamp diameter?
I just built up a new bike and went to some 35mm rise OneUp Carbon bars and have noticed much more hand fatigue and arm pump than on my previous ride. I went with them because of all the praise of compliance but I think I'm experiencing the same thing as you.
I've been running 31.8 carbon and aluminum Renthal bars on my previous bikes and think I might try the aluminum 31.8s out to see if the bars are the issue or just it being a new bike and early in the season.
So you had tech 4v4 and moved to mavens? how does that help given that hopes have more power and ligher action lever compared to the...
So you had tech 4v4 and moved to mavens? how does that help given that hopes have more power and ligher action lever compared to the Mavens?
I wouldnt Argue against t4v4 in anyway except for their noise, the way maven and hope deliver their power is much better than shimano ive had issues with, sure mavens lever is a bit stiffer to 'get moving' but if you dont drag brakes you can set it up an only use brakes when you need them.
Getting parts etc for hope stuff here is a struggle now that crc/wiggle is gone - local importers are hopeless(haha) and charge anther middle man tax.
Oneup carbon bars. Setting brake level angle in line with my arms in the ol' "attack" position. If your brakes have them, set pad engagement so...
Oneup carbon bars. Setting brake level angle in line with my arms in the ol' "attack" position. If your brakes have them, set pad engagement so levers get as close to grips/fingers as possible at full stop. Cutting 10mm off bar width until I found the right width for me (this was more for sholders but it all aligns).
Contrary to popular opinion OneUp carbon bars made my hand fatigue 10x worse. I think that they aren't really as compliant when you cut them down...
Contrary to popular opinion OneUp carbon bars made my hand fatigue 10x worse. I think that they aren't really as compliant when you cut them down to 750... I actually went back to aluminium bars because of them and feel much better now. Running 40mm of rise helped immediately aswell. Also: brakes with "modulation" or huge lever throw are what caused armpump for me aswell, so no Codes or Curas.
Hey @alerad I'm curious what aluminum bars you ended up going with and what clamp diameter?
I just built up a new bike and went to...
Hey @alerad I'm curious what aluminum bars you ended up going with and what clamp diameter?
I just built up a new bike and went to some 35mm rise OneUp Carbon bars and have noticed much more hand fatigue and arm pump than on my previous ride. I went with them because of all the praise of compliance but I think I'm experiencing the same thing as you.
I've been running 31.8 carbon and aluminum Renthal bars on my previous bikes and think I might try the aluminum 31.8s out to see if the bars are the issue or just it being a new bike and early in the season.
@Democho I am currently running the Title AH1 35mm with 38mm rise. I thought about changing down to 31.8mm but didn't really want to buy a new stem aswell, so I left the oneup 35mm stem on there. I cut the Title bar down to 780 and think it is much more comfortable for my hands. Now I don't feel the need to go down to 31.8mm since the AH1 already reduced hand fatigue by alot.
Hope this helps!
I also got to ride SantaCruz carbon bars and the Specialized ones and never liked any of them.. so maybe carbon bars are just not cup of tea.
I wouldnt Argue against t4v4 in anyway except for their noise, the way maven and hope deliver their power is much better than shimano ive had...
I wouldnt Argue against t4v4 in anyway except for their noise, the way maven and hope deliver their power is much better than shimano ive had issues with, sure mavens lever is a bit stiffer to 'get moving' but if you dont drag brakes you can set it up an only use brakes when you need them.
Getting parts etc for hope stuff here is a struggle now that crc/wiggle is gone - local importers are hopeless(haha) and charge anther middle man tax.
Understand, as a brake dragged I need light action
Sure, bike setup and technique can help relieve marginal symptoms, but it sounds like for most of us here keyboard warriors, the problem is not that much what you do on the bike but off the bike, we spend considerably more time sitting at a desk than on a bike. Riding might just reveal that you are compressing the nerve in your wrist elbow, shoulder, or neck all day long.. You can maybe try better ergonomics at your workstation, different mouse, and seat position and just taking regular breaks. Physical Therapy might help release the pressure. I trashed my hands doing some ultra bike-packing race but it was just the payback of years or desk-like. I would focus more on what you do off the bike than on the bike itself.
For those with really bad hand pain, did any of you ride the 275+ tires from a few years ago (for the whole 6 months the trend lasted)? Its pretty silly that we have suspension grips, suspension stems, buttercups in our forks, etc all in an effort to reduce vibration when the only part of the bike that touches the ground is a supple, inflated rubber tube. I would imagine the large volume + tires with their low, sub 20 PSI pressure would be more effective than just about any other weird tech you put on your bike. Too bad those tires handle poorly and are draggy.
yeah one of my E-mtb's came with a 27.5+ rear, rear grip was incredible and it felt like riding on Aladins carpet on small chunk but you took a berm at any sort of speed (let alone squaring it up) and the vague feeling was not good. I constantly burped them too.
Climbing traction was incredible, was like an Aired out 4x4.
I can only think of two things:
No gloves in effect makes the grip feel a little smaller.
Gloves on and wrapped around a bar might not help with hand circulation.
I could also just be in my head, but I just raced NW Cup #2 and had zero arm pump for the 16 runs that I got that weekend.
16 runs? Schmitty you're a machine
I've noticed some gloves cause me problems because they are too vague and require me to grab the bars tighter to avoid losing my grip. I run super thin lightweight gloves to help with this.
Meanwhile I found padded gloves are insanely vague, create more pressure points, and shift around so much requiring me to grip harder and creating more problems. They seem to help some others, so YMMV.
It's shocking to me how few people are willing to actually go out and try different suspension setups, even off the wall ones. It was a revelation in control and comfort for me when I increased compression damping on my fork and shock, only to find it helped me ride longer without having to stop due to my hand crap and I had more control.
The issue is that a lot of people have the spring setup wrong OR the fork is fubar so they have to compensate by backing off the damper or relying on spring pressure. Some forks have dampers that spike badly no matter where the adjuster is, others (IME GRIPX2, Era v2.1, Ohlins RXF36 m.2, Mezzer Pro) you can really crank it in without it getting harsh. The other issue is friction, I've found a lot of forks bind or have excessive friction and that creates another damper of sorts that prevents you from running the fork where you should. They ride these forks labeled "overdamped", but the reality is they have architectural or assembly flaws that make them harsh regardless of what the setting is.
Same with rebound, but I've found that easier to dial in on coil forks than air ones in particular. The faster I can run it, the better the fork feels and the less discomfort I get, within reason of course.
This makes a huge difference for me, but I agree most of what people would think about the setup is counterintuitive.
#winningpractice
never had issues untill a couple of weeks ago. so i reflected on all changes i did during that time:
rising stem
less progression on the fork
more compression on the fork
less rebound on the shock
started with eliminating exactly in that order to find out what caused it. i thought it obviously had something to do with the bar as i had tired hands. but no it was the "least ovious": rebound on the shock was 2 clicks to fast. went back. all good again!
Ergon GA3 grips.
Don't knock them till you try them. I suffered with terrible arm pump and hand pain with your standard style grip (DMR Deathgrips and ODI Ruffians). Never again. I had made all of the suggested changes to suspension setup / brake lever angle and throw etc prior to changing the grip but I was still struggling. Particularly during holidays abroad, where you're riding full on for several days in a row.
I was recommended the GA3's by a local in Morzine and they have been an absolute game changer. No more hand pain and I hardly ever suffer from arm pump any more. I also switched out to a thinner glove so that may have also had a small impact too.
Definitely give them a go though if you're struggling I can't recommend them enough.
All these bar bends grips and whatevers are just compensating for weak muscles, and/or tight neck, shoulder, pec and forearm mechanics.
I Always battled arm pump in MX. Fixed the above and bingo. Motos for days. Took a while to understand me and get it done.
Its a sum of all, get that sorted and you wont care what grips, bars etc. you will just smash the longest descent’s the brakes can handle.
I never had luck with ergonomic grips. I found they forced me once again to grip harder because they don't allow your fingers the proper grip around the bar. I tried various iterations of these and the most promising ones I have, but haven't tried yet, are the SQLabs. They at least provide a structured ergonomic grip that allows your fingers to wrap around and grip the bar without losing contact. Every Ergon grip I tried was either too hard of a compound or compromised grip strength too much. Again I think this depends on what your issue is and there isn't a one size fits all solution. There are a lot of potential problems between your shoulder and where your hand contacts the bar, so it's really not possible to narrow it down to one solution that works for everyone.
I have also ordered some of the new ODI Vanquish grips to see if they help and how much. It sounds promising from folks I know who saw them at Sea Otter, but we'll see how much they help or hurt.
I have the SQ Lab 711 in large and they're really nice. Gotta first nail the roll of your bar then adjust the roll of the grips. They're quite soft, like Ritchey True Grips if you're old enough to remember those. They're kind of malleable in your hands but not as compressible as silicone grips. I like them a lot. I have them on one bike and Oneup thicks on another bike. I like them both equally.
Lots of good points being brought up, but it really boils down to three things for most people who don't have a diagnosed medical condition:
1. Correct tire pressure
2. Servicing your fork at some point in its life
3. The one no one likes- Take it easy at the bike part, esp. early season. This is the most important one. Biking is not like skiing, you can't do endless runs all day. Imagine if you only ever skied moguls. Could you crank out run after run without resting? Now imagine you had to do moguls on your hands and arms. Biking is more intense on your hands/wrists than even this.
That test was pretty interesting - I hadn't seen that one! One thing I wonder with bar stiffness is related to frequency - The stiffness of the bar combined with the mass of the rider and other resonant frequencies in the front end could mean a more compliant bar is actually amplifying vibration in a certain range. So that rider might suit a slightly stiffer bar, or an even more compliant one, or attempt to find the cause of that vibration.
As for training/don't death grip/going to the gym - those things might help but it's one of those chicken and egg situatiosn where its much easier to hold the bars lightly if its not trying to shake you to pieces - sure getting stronger will help, but reducing the amount of feedback in the first place will help even more, and make it easier to relax your grip
stole this from the "other" thread
https://www.instagram.com/p/C69HwTJogHo/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&im…
1000% agree. Also, just because you're strong enough to hang on to the handlebar doesn't mean you're riding well, or fast. All of those impacts you're feeling in your hands are literally heat in your joints, dispersing your forward speed and momentum into thin air, aka suspension loss. In downhill riding (DH, enduro, etc), we go to great lengths to tune the suspension in our tires, forks, and shocks to minimize suspension loss. Those vibrations and impacts in your hands are lost kinetic energy that, all else being equal, we'd prefer to keep moving with your body mass down the hill. Sprung mass vs. unsprung mass and such.
So while it's possible to get stronger so you can hang onto a bad bike setup, there are benefits to a smoother bike setup beyond the obvious fact that it's more comfortable to use.
I don’t believe in “hype”. I hate it. Game changer. What Schmitty said is true. What RF produced is real. I experienced it and, now, I live it. Believe me, they chased OneUp and killed them. Do it. ERA is real
Softer structures rarely vibrate at higher frequencies, unless specifically excited by them. Plus if talking carbon, the inherent characteristic of it, compared to aluminium, is more damping in the structure. Besides the possibility to tune it even further with the use of layup and material choice.
Of course the benefits of correct suspension are paramount to going fast for long. But a 5 min run hard as you can shouldn’t blow your arms up.
If you're at the bike park using a ski lift, and its your 6th "5 min run" of the day, its not muscle fatigue thats hurting you, its joint pain.
Smoother suspension will make you faster on a 20-minute race run or a 2-minute race run. "Comfort" can serve as a canary in the coal mine for bike setup, because if you're getting beat up and bounced around by your handlebars, that probably isn't a fast or efficient setup.
A couple years ago Loic Bruni was doing a video play-by-play of his 3rd place race run at the season opener World Cup race at Lourdes, and he was talking about how he went up in compression a couple clicks between qualifying and finals, and felt like he could barely keep the bike on the track, getting bounced around and knocked off line. Ultimately, he had to slow down his riding to stay on track because his bike wasn't tracking smoothly. He said "the bike was too fast for me," but I don't think any of us think Loic has a fitness problem, that he needed to do more rock climbing or grip strength exercises or ride more moto before his race run at Lourdes. His bike was too stiff, and he needed to make it softer.
What I'm saying is that, for many people, they have the opposite problem. Their fork gets sucked into every hole and pounds their hands to death because it's too soft and too slow. Beginners with agonizing claw hands are almost always blown away when you make a few free adjustments to their bike setup.
Years ago we were riding down those long, 2,000+ foot descents in Jackson Hole, constantly waiting for my buddy's girlfriend. I decided to take a look at her setup (a 130 pound woman). Her tires were no joke like 40 PSI, she had that old Enduro 26" with the dual crown fork, travel adjust, and of course in the lower position. Rear shock locked out, both shocks way too much air, rebound too slow. After we did some trailside tuning, she started keeping up much better haha.
Yup - softer structures will resonate at lower frequencies - that was my point. Mountain bikes generate a lot of vibration in the 3-20Hz region in particular (from my measurements) so if a handlebar is resonating and amplifying vibration in this range it will be very noticeable. So if your particular bar is amplifying these lower frequencies it is probably better to go with something stiffer as intensity of vibration is much lower and usually filtered out by the tyres. I went looking for some example graphs so checked the white paper from Vibrocore, and thats exactly what they were doing, as well as adding damping material to the part - https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2363/5997/files/Spank_VibrocoreTM_Frequency_Analysis_Test_Report.pdf?17652700425391016425
I take a lot of time with my suspension. For performance. Rebound is for adjusting comfort between hard choppy and smooth. Tires to an extent. Comp is for hold up. I dont have the luxury of a team doing suspension settings. The small range in my 40’s and Deluxe DH are it. The rest i muscle.
I run 35mm burgtec carbon bars and grips. Because i like them, not because im masking/curing something.
6 x 5 min bike park runs arent hurting anything body wise when on my DH bike. Well my rims tbh. I ride loads and MX twice a week. If i didnt ride heaps and work on core and body mechanics id for sure look for a short cut…ive been there. Its not the answer.
So you had tech 4v4 and moved to mavens? how does that help given that hopes have more power and ligher action lever compared to the Mavens?
Hey @alerad I'm curious what aluminum bars you ended up going with and what clamp diameter?
I just built up a new bike and went to some 35mm rise OneUp Carbon bars and have noticed much more hand fatigue and arm pump than on my previous ride. I went with them because of all the praise of compliance but I think I'm experiencing the same thing as you.
I've been running 31.8 carbon and aluminum Renthal bars on my previous bikes and think I might try the aluminum 31.8s out to see if the bars are the issue or just it being a new bike and early in the season.
I wouldnt Argue against t4v4 in anyway except for their noise, the way maven and hope deliver their power is much better than shimano ive had issues with, sure mavens lever is a bit stiffer to 'get moving' but if you dont drag brakes you can set it up an only use brakes when you need them.
Getting parts etc for hope stuff here is a struggle now that crc/wiggle is gone - local importers are hopeless(haha) and charge anther middle man tax.
@Democho I am currently running the Title AH1 35mm with 38mm rise. I thought about changing down to 31.8mm but didn't really want to buy a new stem aswell, so I left the oneup 35mm stem on there. I cut the Title bar down to 780 and think it is much more comfortable for my hands. Now I don't feel the need to go down to 31.8mm since the AH1 already reduced hand fatigue by alot.
Hope this helps!
I also got to ride SantaCruz carbon bars and the Specialized ones and never liked any of them.. so maybe carbon bars are just not cup of tea.
Understand, as a brake dragged I need light action
and Maguras squeal as well so I’m used to it
Sure, bike setup and technique can help relieve marginal symptoms, but it sounds like for most of us here keyboard warriors, the problem is not that much what you do on the bike but off the bike, we spend considerably more time sitting at a desk than on a bike. Riding might just reveal that you are compressing the nerve in your wrist elbow, shoulder, or neck all day long.. You can maybe try better ergonomics at your workstation, different mouse, and seat position and just taking regular breaks. Physical Therapy might help release the pressure. I trashed my hands doing some ultra bike-packing race but it was just the payback of years or desk-like. I would focus more on what you do off the bike than on the bike itself.
For those with really bad hand pain, did any of you ride the 275+ tires from a few years ago (for the whole 6 months the trend lasted)? Its pretty silly that we have suspension grips, suspension stems, buttercups in our forks, etc all in an effort to reduce vibration when the only part of the bike that touches the ground is a supple, inflated rubber tube. I would imagine the large volume + tires with their low, sub 20 PSI pressure would be more effective than just about any other weird tech you put on your bike. Too bad those tires handle poorly and are draggy.
yeah one of my E-mtb's came with a 27.5+ rear, rear grip was incredible and it felt like riding on Aladins carpet on small chunk but you took a berm at any sort of speed (let alone squaring it up) and the vague feeling was not good. I constantly burped them too.
Climbing traction was incredible, was like an Aired out 4x4.
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