Nico Vouilloz and Fabien Barel Discuss 29ers in DH 69

Big wheels - yay or nay? Two legends of the sport weigh in with their thoughts.

iceman2058
5/2/2017 3:53am
s1600 Fabien and Nico Audio slide Troy on trainer 645406

Strolling around the Lourdes paddocks on the morning of race day, we caught Nico Vouilloz and Fabien Barel having a little chat behind the Canyon pits. We took the opportunity to ask these two legends of downhill what they think of the arrival of bigger wheels in the World Cup, and whether or not the UCI should take a look at putting in place some rules or regulations regarding wheelsize in DH. Check the audio below to find out what they had to say!

Sadly, the weather threw a big spanner in the works and robbed us of getting a few more answers here in Lourdes. Troy Brosnan's run was ruined - he still sent the gully gap though, as the true shredder that he is.

Loris Vergier was looking calm, collected, and FAST in morning practice, ready to back up his fastest qualifier with a race win, to really put the big wheels on the map. It wasn't to be, he was last man down the hill and had to ride in a monsoon.


Want more? -> All Things Lourdes

Related:
Canyon
UCI Mountain Bike World Cup
Downhill
Lourdes, France
Troy Brosnan
Fabien Barel
Nicolas Vouilloz
69 comments

View replies to: Nico Vouilloz and Fabien Barel Discuss 29ers in DH

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bizutch
7 years ago
If I were A 2018 World Cup course designer , I'd take it as a personal challenge to put as many hairpins, switchbacks, chicanes and cork screws in the courses just to see if 29ers could even make it around the turns. You can make the tracks defeat the bikes.
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jeff.brines
7 years ago
Food for thought, Greg C always seems to crush tight, twisty, awkward EWS aboard a 29" steed. The old school "29" bikes can't corner in tight stuff" belief is sort of a theory from yesteryear being perpetuated forward IMO.

Bikes are already long and slack as hell. That, more than anything, is going to impact its ability in the mega tight stuff.

My opinion anyway...
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Monstertruck
7 years ago
I think part of the reason for all the frustration about wheel size and standards evolution is due to the past 20+ years of stagnation, followed by rapid progression. The bike I started riding on in 198? Was not different from my last hard tail which was in 2000. Then in 2000ish I got a Turner XCE which was quickly warrantied for a Horst Link 5 Spot. Then I kept that bike until the Santa Cruz TBLT came out. I had wanted to get something newer and fresher, but there was not a better trail bike released between the early 2000s until something like 2012. I went through forks and 9 speed drive trains and wheels but kept the bike because nothing was newer or better for 12 years. The lack of new standards during that time was not because the standards we had were the best, or even good. It was due to a lack of progression.

Since 2012 I've been having a blast riding new bikes and new technology. The bikes finally do what we always wanted them to do. Are new standards a PITA? Yes. Are new wheels sizes difficult to factor into DH racing- sure. But I'm ok with it all because I get to ride an Evil Wreckoning rather than a Horst link 5 spot with a 69 degree HA and a 15" reach.

I'll take all the new standards they throw at me rather than ride the same bike for 10+ years when that bike does not do what I want it to do. We need progression. This sport is so fun, such a great way to spend a life. But the bikes need to be better. The Wrecker is rad. But The STA is too slack, the reach is too short and the seat tube is too long to let me size up and still run a 150 dropper. The HA is still too steep. I don't know if the chain stays are too long or too short or just right; but I'm willing to try other sizes out. I rode bullshirt bikes for 25+ years. I'm getting old. I want to ride a bike that does in reality what they do in my mind before I'm out of the game!!!

So 29 wheels in DH. Hell yes. 33", 36, 48, 54 sure. At some point they will suck. We don't even know what that size is yet. Let's get this show rolling!
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Raymond
7 years ago
100% agreed with Fabien when he says 29ner is for taller rider. FloPayet will rock on this bike!!
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lister_yu
7 years ago
I don´t think it would be good that the UCI would step in and rule what wheel size should be used. Both wheel sizes work for all the girls and boys racing EWS so why shouldn´t that be the case in DH. Like the commentators on Red Bull TV use to say - it is the pinnacle of the cycling sport and like Formula 1 and therefore just use/or roll on whatever makes you happy as a team.

I think it is a bit strange that both want the UCI to rule in that case.
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jeff.brines
7 years ago
Don't forget, both are still affiliated with brands so you aren't hearing something completely unbias.... (EG: If Canyon doesn't have one in development of course Fabien is going to be more bearish on the wheel size...)
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bizutch
7 years ago
I think what you're actually hearing is two guys who know the sales figures of the companies that they represent and all the other manufacturers who are sitting there with frames they can't sell Wheels they can't sell it cetera
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bizutch
7 years ago
And I'm not referring to just their company's it's all mountain bike manufacturers. None of them have any idea what to order what to design or what to build in the current market
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funkyfunpuff
7 years ago
I know that wheel size is a bid deal and could give someone a slight advantage, but I am curious why no one is concerned or up in arms with the fact that there are different rear travel bikes in DH? I am curious why we are all focusing on one aspect of the bike. Ya might say that brake rotors should have a limit in size too. Just tossing out ideas as I am frustrated with all wheel discussions.
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mat prior
7 years ago
This is actually a great point. Other sports where equipment is subject to regulation or standard don't just focus on one part, motor racing for one. Its the sum of a whole host of specs that collectively level the playing field, or in extremes where they all race the same chassis/platform and just slip a different body over top (for better or worse). I think either leave it alone entirely, let the brands decide their own development path or standardise majority of it: brakes, travel, etc. Personally I prefer keeping it open, Group B glory days anyone...?
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bizutch
7 years ago
To add, in other motor sports, some regulations are to safety (NASCAR regulator plates keep people from floating away at 220mph) and a select few are to prevent billionaires from out-teching the millionaire. But we have NO unobtainable technology that is vastly unfair to competition. This was simply a "we raced it first" wheel which will be quickly mimicked.

Where the problem lies is not in the competitive advantage or any safety concern. It's quite literally that our industry is filled with small, medium and large companies with a glut of inventory in every bike category and no clear definition of what the consumer is going to DEMAND.

It just shows as a pre-cursor of a contraction of the industry. There is way too much supply, far too many choices and now we will have to wait to see where the demand is. Companies are going to have to fold/collapse/contract for a few years now. THAT is why 27.5 & 29" drive came along AFTER the economic downturn in 2008. Bike businesses folded and consolidated to the point where Specialized & Giant could say "Lets push this market segment hard and let the out of demand size keep trickling away"
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Lighthowler
7 years ago
It obviously stinks compared to all other wheeled sports that are in essence a timed race from start to finish. Road cycling hasn't stifled development the rules have been successful in ensuring a more fair and even playing field.
Downhill just isn't as professional or as organised and it doesn't reflect well in my eyes.
If I was a team manager I'd get payet on the team and develop 35inch wheels and leapfrog the whole 29 thing.
Wonder if that would change people's mind tuning in to see florent take 5 secs off the field, soon get boring like the women's at present.
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ThomDawson
7 years ago
I don't think it's as simple as that. Developing a 35" wheel would take years and tonnes of money. And when you're done the huge negative side of such a massive wheel probably won't be quicker than a 275 or 29 wheeled bike.
The bike doesn't automatically get faster the bigger wheels you put on it. The most successful team will be the one that makes the right decisions over which size to use for which race and for their riders - just like tyre choice, etc, etc
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easton
7 years ago
I ride a 29er. I love technological progress in bikes.

But I have one concern: If bigger and bigger wheels prove more and more advantageous, at what point will tall riders have a overwhelming advantage by riding equipment shorter riders can't possibly use?

One of my favorite parts of DH racing is that most sizes of human can compete-- to see Danny Hart and Troy Brosnan level with Minnaar and Payet is awesome.

But if people keep pushing the wheel size, and Payet sized people come to dominate on, you know, a 33in wheel in 2020, and short riders are pushed out of the sport like it was basketball or something, it would be a real shame.

For this reason I am fine with the UCI capping wheel size at a max of 29.
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dd
7 years ago
It is not certain that larger wheel sizes are less beneficial for shorter riders.
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ThomDawson
7 years ago
I don't think it's as big an issue as people make out. I never got buzzed but I only had 150mm travel, Luca said he got buzzed but didn't seem to give two shits about it, same as getting muddy - just a fact of riding a bike
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groghunter
7 years ago
Well, right now, on the only 3 29ers to see WC level competition, the riders on smaller frames have less rear wheel travel than Greg does.
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ThomDawson
7 years ago
I'm 5'6" and never had an issue riding a 29er. I don't k ow why everyone assumes that small riders can't ride them or even why tall people think they fit them better than a shorter rider.
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Maverickdh005
7 years ago
Well that's realitive to skill level, anyone can ride anything, but can everyone ride it well, or at the same level given the same variables! Fabian said it best can someone like Troy ride a 29er as well as Florian Payet, tall riders have been riding std wheeel sizes for ever, in fact pre 2007 tall riders dominated DH and many tracks were reffered to as a big mans track, only in recent times with bikes having lighter weight better suspension gears etc etc has that balance become even, I'd argue at the moment in 27.5" guise DH has never been more competitive or balanced!!!!

Btw I ride 29ers and wouldn't go back to a std size wheel, I'm 6'.0"

But like most Professional competions, as Nico says who also raced WRC so he has an even better understanding of true global World Championship racing that they're are rules to allow progression and standardised rules for all teams to follow!
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Lem0n
7 years ago
But... what if Payet was always in a disadvantage because he was riding a bike that doesn´t suit him?

I don´t know, I am against any regulation. Track builders has to take some time to thing about this issue to. Are the WC tracks the best?? are demanding every aspect in terms of skills? or is just about to stay away from the breakes?
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Inclag
7 years ago
Guess what rider is able to move his COG over a greater distance between wheelbases? A taller or shorter rider? I'm tall and am considering a 29er for my next bike but I'm in favor of regulating wheel size for downhill since shorter folks can't physically manuever their weight between two points as much as a taller rider. The problem I see is that we approaching a point where we are reaching the limit for some body types and not others. Since force vectors are what they are this means that those that can handle larger wheels will do so with less cumulative opposing wheel force than those riding smaller wheels. At a professional level where seconds actually matter I think that is crap. This isn't rocket science and this is going to be a thing because the UCI allowed it to be.
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lev
7 years ago
I think two good points were made by Loic and Brendan in the dirt walk around. If everyone gets 29ers, it's the same race, just on bigger wheels. The only people that lose are the amateurs who now have to buy, new frame, new fork, new wheels, new tyres. It's not really progression, it's a variation. Bad Santa Cruz.
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ThomDawson
7 years ago
That's the worst point that keeps cropping up. The exact same thing happens whenever a new innovation or improvement hits the circuit - carbon frames and components, somebody develops a glue-like tyre compound, somebody develops a super controlled damper (that smooths out terrain just like a 29er wheel btw). Etc etc, eventually everyone develops (copies) their own carbon frame, their own tyre, their own dampers and everyone's back on the same page...until the next thing comes along. It's precisely how competition drives innovation.
Besides that your (and Brendan's and Loic's) argument assumes that a 29er wheel will be faster and we simply do not know that it will in competition. Getting the right combination of wheelsize and bike set up for a given rider on a given track is what's fastest, we don't know that will always be a 29er for every track and every rider.
Good Santa Cruz. Would you rather nobody tried because "29ers are..."
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groghunter
7 years ago
Except that isn't what happens. What happens is a bunch of brands leave the sport temporarily, since they can't compete. Look at how many brands fell off for a few seasons after 650b. Except this time, the cost/benefit analysis looks a lot better in favor of just putting more money towards the EWS. Look at Devinci, who I'm sure knew this was coming. Santa Cruz could have come to the UCI, brought if forward as an option, & then discussed it with the rest of the teams,

Instead they made a change that could have far reaching impact on both the sport, & the DH segment as a whole, & left everyone else to scramble, in the name of having an advantage for a few races.
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groghunter
7 years ago
While that is true to some extent right now, 29ers are surging pretty hard in EWS this year, with the new Trek, Evil, & other brand's bikes. Second, Enduro has a more "run what you brung" ethos, at least right now. DH emphasizes velocity much more than other disciplines , & if 29 is faster, the tracks & other facets will be modified to suit in ways that wouldn't happen in Enduro or XC.
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jeff.brines
7 years ago
I don't disagree 29" enduro steeds are the new hotness, but again, I go back to Richie (see my other comments). He has had the option to ride one of the best 29" enduro weapons on the planet and sticks with the 27.5" steed. There are others who have also had the option to run the bigger wheel and chose not to. This speaks volumes to the reality of the situation. I really believe you'll see a mix, dictated more by comfort than anything else. I also think its not too far out of the realm of "crazy" to think that with some really clever design and an adjustable headset, that a bike couldn't accommodate both 27.5 and 29" wheels...

I do contest that enduro somehow is less about velocity or something. It stands between XC and DH by most people's measuring stick. What is working in XC? 29". So if DH is sure to be dominated by 29", than it would make 100% sense that enduro would be getting crushed by 29" too.
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groghunter
7 years ago
One rider is not a trend, it's an edge case. Richie is riding the bike he likes best of those available to him, & the 5.5 is only 140mm of travel. It's not equivalent to the new crop of 29er race bikes, nor was it designed to be a thoroughbred race bike. This holds true no matter how much you may like Yeti.
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jeff.brines
7 years ago
...and the v10 is only 190mm of travel for those not riding an XXL. Seems like an apples to apples analogy to me!

To add, I have had the unique privilege of interviewing the founder of the company regarding the SB 5.5c in which he point blank said it was designed as a race bike for the EWS. (it was actually designed for an ex Yeti racer who now rides for a company with lots of red in their logo. This racer may be the best racer of all time.... )

That said, I can offer more...

Sam Hill rides the 27.5" Nukeproof, but he has the option of a 29" that is almost identical. Cody Kelly too swaps back and forth from the SB6 to the SB5.5c depending on the track, what he's feeling comfortable on etc.

Norco has the option of either too, with Blenki (who is 6'1") and Joe Smith both going 27.5" in New Zealand...

There are too many data points suggesting 29" wheel is great, but its more to do with preference than gospel. If it was set in stone "always faster", all these top level athletes who have the choice, would always chose to be on the bigger wheel. Remember, its their JOB to win. Fun comes second...
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Maverickdh005
7 years ago
I'd argue it drives cost, not innovation, it will take another 2 years of development to get 29ers to where 27.5".

I'm a 29er fan, but Ai don't think it's nessacikry a good move for DH from a competition point of view or for tracks that DH racers will be raced on, and that's a big fact people are not taking into account.
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groghunter
7 years ago
Ah, the "what's the matter bro, too much of a *ussy?" defense. What enlightened times, these, when discourse has risen to such stratospheric heights.
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Lighthowler
7 years ago
Tracks have been getting smoother and easier for years, Lourdes seemed less gnarly this year as it's been ridden in. The canyon to hip or gulley took out loads first year looked easy this year. Same with the wall section it's no longer about the ability to handle the terrain it's just about holding speed. I don't know why they use leogang when schladming is round the corner, val di sole vallnord are the only exception and they get flatt sections with a few jumps just to look good on red Bull to.
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beerguzlinfool
7 years ago
It's funny. Riders and fans want gnarlier tracks but we keep seeing the wheel size increase which smooths it out.. kind of hypocritical if you ask me.
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jefedelosjefes
7 years ago
Nobody with any power here actually cares about the sanctity of racing. They care about the show. Shows need drama... and here you go.
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jeff.brines
7 years ago
Wow. I'm pretty shocked.

I figured both Nico and Fabien would love the bigger wheel as they both seemed to do whatever was needed technologically to eek out more speed.

Larger riders have disadvantages in places, advantages in other places. Bigger wheels will be the same way.

Limiting wheel size is like limiting bike fit, skewing things to benefit a certain type/size of rider.

As far as it being a bummer for the industry, cmon boys! Its not like the wheels, tires, and 29" trail bikes weren't already in production this year. To add, I could see a few smart companies *maybe* finding a way to build a 29 and 27.5" bike from very similar molds (EG, same rear end, same front end, different links).

Why should some riders have their bike fit them better than others?

(scroll down for more thoughts)
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Oz_Taylor
7 years ago
Why should some riders get an advantage because they are taller than average?

27.5" is a good average wheelsize that can be made to work for riders at both ends of the height range. There are enough possibilities with frame sizing to make one wheelsize work for all competitors.

Greg Minnaar and many other racers have been going longer in search of stability. One thing I found interesting is that Gregs 29" V10 is the same size as last years bike, so switching to big wheels wasn't about bike fitment. It's purely about the advantages of a bigger wheel with more momentum, stability, rollover and grip.
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ThomDawson
7 years ago
What's the wheelbase of gregs bike? Is he not already at an unfair advantage by your logic? I mean Brosnan isn't gonna be able to pilot that thing 29" or not. Gregs height means he can utilise a more stable bike than shorter guys, he should be banned from competing cus he's too massive.
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Oz_Taylor
7 years ago
From what I've read and heard, his wheelbase is 1300mm. Last year he rode a XXL V10 with longer shock links (+17mm I think), so around 1295mm in total.

You could say Greg's set up is one of the more extreme in terms of length. Even Peaty didn't go that long and he is an inch taller than Greg. But anyway, I'd say the length of Greg's bike is in proportion to his height. It would be interesting to look at the ratio between wheelbase length and rider height.

Danny Hart rides a large Summum with a 1250mm wheelbase. At his height of 1.78m, his wheelbase is actually longer than Minnaars relative to his height (Greg is 1.9m tall).

I understand that wheelbase is just one measurement on the bike, but it's a good number because it takes into account the head angle etc.
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jeff.brines
7 years ago
Do you think certain riders get an advantage because they are taller? I'd argue there are just as many advantages as disadvantages. I'd also argue "welcome to sports" where certain body types have advantages over others. Tall guys do well in the NBA. Light guys do well in horse racing and road cycling. Sporting events, in general, aren't fair. Hell, life isn't fair.

But here is the thing, one of the awesome parts about DH is I'm not sure one body type is better than another. Guys of all heights have won. And even when I think I have it figured out (no small guy will win at Ft Bill for instance), I'm proven wrong (Troy).

Greg is finally riding a bike that fits him. And those wheels match on a proportional basis.

Another point nobody is making here. If XC is best on 29". And DH is all of a sudden best on 29". Why are all the top guys in Enduro not on 29"? I get there are 29" wheeled bikes near the top but Richie has the choice (Yeti makes top notch 27.5 and 29" steeds), and sticks with 27.5", doesn't that say its a "different stroke for different folks" type of thing? A bike fit thing? A comfort thing?

To those that think this is going to cause all sorts of extra expense I again challenge you to reconsider. Tires, wheels, etc - have in some capacity existed for years. Making the frame work could cost some money but I'm not sure its going to be as ungodly expensive or as disruptive to "the industry's health" as everyone thinks to produce something with slightly bigger wheels. Also, don't forget, maybe a company will sell more bikes because they are able to offer something to the customer that attracts them to said item. Maybe a guy (like me) who wasn't going to buy a DH bike does, because he's intrigued and wants to check it out again. This is good! We aren't talking about essential items in the first place after all... Darwinism. Capitalism. Giving the people what they want. All good things.

Rants aside, one thing is for certain, its given us an exciting narrative to follow this year.

I'm personally psyched!
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Lighthowler
7 years ago
Yeah sports favour certain body types no point going for NBA if your 5 ft no point going for sumo if your thin but these sports don't make changes they stick to their standards.
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Oz_Taylor
7 years ago
Speed in most cycling disciplines is about power to weight, and how long a rider can sustain that power. Troy might be short but he's a powerful guy. He placed 5th in Pietermaritzburg a couple of months before his win at Fort Bill. I like the fact that different sized guys can win, although mental preparation, confidence and a huge dose of talent can win races too.

I dunno, I'm generally in two minds about this whole thing. Love the sport, Minnaar is my favourite rider, Syndicate my favourite team, yet it's those guys who are taking the sport into a place that doesn't feel right to me.
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jeff.brines
7 years ago
@Oz - go on as to why this doesn't feel right? Curious - have you ridden a long travel 29" trail bike? Is there something you are hung up on that doesn't feel right - like somehow the big wheels aren't somehow as cool? Like they probably suck in the air and you can't get sideways and "have fun with them"?

I used to share this mentality until last season. I was faster, had more fun, and owe a little of this to my switch to 29" wheels in a longerish trail application.

In the end, we are arguing about 1.7". I'd suggest we backup and reconsider all the other changes that occurred over the last 20 years in the sport that were maybe bigger that nobody balked at. They have happened, but maybe a bit more quietly. (suspension development being the big one)

Food for thought.

(PS, RAD comments by all! Only way this could be better is if we were all at a bar screaming at each other with beers...ha)
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Oz_Taylor
7 years ago
I ride an Enduro 29 Carbon. It's the fastest bike I've owned. I can get it sideways (just), it rails turns, it climbs, it ploughs. Haven't used my DH bike since I bought it.

What doesn't feel right to me is that at present, the Syndicate have an advantage over all the other teams. I know the advantage is debatable but my own experience of riding 29" bikes leads me to believe that they are faster (and Lourdes quali kind of confirmed it too). They will carry that advantage this season and over most other teams into 2018. They announced it late as a marketing stunt. They kept it under wraps so that the other teams couldn't react in time. They have access to exclusive tech from their suppliers which has allowed them to be the only team to bring this to the table.

I don't care what the wheelsize is, as long as it's fair for everyone involved. At the moment it's not a level playing field. Whether smaller riders can ride them with the same amount of travel etc will depend on how the bikes are developed.

I don't think wheelsize can be compared to other tech such as suspension. Wheels are a fundamental component of the bike and are a defining component. Just as BMX is 20", road is 700c etc. The wheels make such a big difference to the characteristic of a bike, I think that it's important that this component is a constant. If it settles at 29" that's fine, at least we'll have a level playing field again, if the bikes fit smaller riders without any compromises (less suspension travel etc). It's a shame that we only saw 2 years of WC level development on 27.5" wheels before the jump to 29".
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jeff.brines
7 years ago
All fair points! You will see more 29" DH bikes soon btw (Fort Bill according to the rumors - 2 more teams)! So the field will be (more) level if in fact it is the advantage some are suggesting. Again, I dig the conversation. Cheers!
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