what kind of brake pads to use front vs back

NMK
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Hi All, intermediate rider, XC and Enduro. I have the 2023 Levo SL and total system weight is 90 kg. I swapped out the Code Stealth Silver with a set of Magura MT7's because I found the Codes to be not so good on modulation. Maybe this was a pad issue...? 

Currently I am using Swissstop 33E sintered pads front and back and I get great modulation and no problems stopping or fading. But someone said for the MT7's best is to use organic pads to avoid heat transfer from pads to caliper to oil. Is this an issue? So I am considering putting the Magura 8.P (performance) on front and 8.R (race) on back.

Many people tell me to use pads with more stopping power on the front because weight shifts forward and that's where the stopping power is needed... but for me, my preference is to have better modulation on the front so in certain situation I don't feel like I'm going to get bucked forward... Am I wrong to set it up backwards to convention?

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Falcon
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Menifee, CA US
10/31/2023 10:03am

It's never wrong to set up your bike the way you want it. I'd do some testing, though, to see if your suspicions are correct - see if you really do like it better your way. If not, flip the pads back around. 

right now, I'm running sintered in front and organic in back. I'm sure someone would say that's a horrible setup, but it works fine for me. 

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10/31/2023 10:16am

I switched from metallic to Galfer black on the front of my dh bike because I wanted less bite when the brakes were hot. Hope V4 Tech 3 w/Vented rotors. When they're cold the metallics feel wooden and vague, when they're hot they have so much grab that they pitch me forward if I'm braking when the front wheel dips into a hole. The Galfer black is a perfect compromise for me. 

3
10/31/2023 10:22am

Try it and see if you like it. You can always switch back if it doesn't work the way you hoped, but nothing beats first-hand experience on your own bike (and your own trails).

On my trail bike I currently have semi-metallic pads in the front and metallic pads in the rear. I tend to brake shorter/harder with the front and drag the rear more. Running mismatched pads helps even out the wear rate for me. YMMV.

2
10/31/2023 10:28am

It's been proven that the rear needs more heat capacity than the front so like you said, it does not make any sense to have the more capable setup up front like we see on a lot of bikes. Brake ace video showing data.

I would argue that rotor mass (size and thickness) makes a bigger difference than pad compound but both are good for tuning. 

Im using some strong brakes (hope tech 4 v4) on both my bikes and have settled on the following setup and am super happy with it.

Enduro ebike - 180mm 2.3 trp rotor up front, 200mm 2.3 trp rotor in the rear. I went down from 200mm to 180mm up front for modulation purposes. 

Trail bike - 180mm 2.0 Magura SL front and rear. 

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NMK
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10/31/2023 11:56am

Thanks all for the valuable input, this is very much appreciated. I have some organic pads on the way to me and I'll do some tests with varying combinations of the metallic pads I currently have and see how that works out. It is very true, riding style, trail types, many factors on what types of pads to use.

TEAMROBOT
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10/31/2023 3:44pm

One thing that I haven't heard mentioned here yet, but make sure to clean, sand, and bed-in the rotors when you switch pad material. When you bed-in a new set of brake pads and/or rotors, the brake pads are leaving material in the pores of the brake rotor permanently. This is critical for good braking, but when you switch pad materials without adequately cleaning the pores of the rotor it creates a mismatch between brake pad and rotor.

9
DServy
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10/31/2023 8:56pm
It's been proven that the rear needs more heat capacity than the front so like you said, it does not make any sense to have the...

It's been proven that the rear needs more heat capacity than the front so like you said, it does not make any sense to have the more capable setup up front like we see on a lot of bikes. Brake ace video showing data.

I would argue that rotor mass (size and thickness) makes a bigger difference than pad compound but both are good for tuning. 

Im using some strong brakes (hope tech 4 v4) on both my bikes and have settled on the following setup and am super happy with it.

Enduro ebike - 180mm 2.3 trp rotor up front, 200mm 2.3 trp rotor in the rear. I went down from 200mm to 180mm up front for modulation purposes. 

Trail bike - 180mm 2.0 Magura SL front and rear. 

I disagree with having "less capable" in the front, as I view the front brake being the "Boat Anchor" as it were. If I'm really trying to slow down I'm using more front brake than rear. I can see the rear needing to manage heat better as its more likely to be engaged for longer (e.g braking to maintain a speed during a section as opposed to slowing down). So while the front might not get as hot for as long, it could easily have massive temp spikes that can cause issues. 

It's also important to note that bigger rotors give more power, so I might be running a 220 in the front not just for the heat management, but also for raw power. As far as brake modulation, I haven't ever felt the need to run brakes with a ton of them. I'll take outright stopping power every time. 

I usually run matched rotors front and rear. 

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krabo83
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11/1/2023 1:07am Edited Date/Time 11/1/2023 1:08am

been running organic front/sintered rear for 2 years now and I'm a big fan. organic up front give's me even more modulation and sintered out back helps with heat management since i use the rear brake way more. using 200mm rotors on both ends and specific to the pad material.

luisgutrod
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11/1/2023 2:18am
TEAMROBOT wrote:
One thing that I haven't heard mentioned here yet, but make sure to clean, sand, and bed-in the rotors when you switch pad material. When you...

One thing that I haven't heard mentioned here yet, but make sure to clean, sand, and bed-in the rotors when you switch pad material. When you bed-in a new set of brake pads and/or rotors, the brake pads are leaving material in the pores of the brake rotor permanently. This is critical for good braking, but when you switch pad materials without adequately cleaning the pores of the rotor it creates a mismatch between brake pad and rotor.

I even hear people say it's a no-go if you used metallic and want to go organic after, the rotor will be cooked.. but I guess I could be sanded.. 

1
jasbushey
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11/1/2023 8:20am

Swapping brakes is an expensive proposition and should be the last thing you do.  Changing pads is the cheapest thing to change the "bite".  Rotors next to change power output.  They say 20mm would change ~10% of the power.  Typically you want more power in front where the majority of your braking is controlled so having a 20mm more rotor in front is normal.  Also adding thicker rotors will make a noticable change in power and heat resistance. 

Personally I wear pads at the same rate front and rear so having the same material keeps swapping / bleeding consistent for maintenance purposes makes more sense.  Maybe a top level athlete would care about different compounds front and rear, but as an advanced rider, I've never cared.  I have some very fast friends who have never cared as well.  

I use MTX Red Pads (ceramic pads) front and rear for mine and my wife's bikes and they improved each.  From metal on my XT 4 pots they made a noticable change in modulation with no change in power.  From organic pads on my wife's 2 pot XTs they made a noticable increase in power.  I also have always ran them on my Cura 4s and they have excellent stopping power and modulation on that combo with thick rotors.  Significantly better than my XT 4 pots in both.  My 200lb friend put them on Codes and also claimed a significant power improvement over the organic that came on the bike.

As for the front "getting bucked" question.  To me that is a technique issue, not gear.  I think a lot of people get caught up on reviews (myself included) and buy more equipment to improve skill.  Some gear I can say does make a noticable change (tires, dropper posts for example).  Both of the brakes you have are top level brakes used by the top level athletes and likely not a noticable difference in performance between the two.  I might suggest selling one of those brakes (the one you like the ergonomics on least) and put that money into a private coaching lesson on brake technique.  

Blister gave a great head to head comparison of DH brakes though if you want to nerd out.  https://blisterreview.com/gear-reviews/mtb-brake-shootout 

The other site also had a good article on pads and rotors https://www.pinkbike.com/news/tech-tuesday-how-and-why-to-upgrade-your-…

NMK
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11/1/2023 11:38am

@jasbushey Since I'm not an advanced rider and mostly like, as you say, it is the technique, then wouldn't it be better for me to use pads that are with less aggressive bite for the front brake to avoid accidental harder than needed pull on the lever? And with a system weight of just less than 200 lbs and definitely not riding DH as fast as an advanced rider, then having maximum brake power might come secondary to modulation?

TEAMROBOT
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11/1/2023 2:26pm
NMK wrote:
@jasbushey Since I'm not an advanced rider and mostly like, as you say, it is the technique, then wouldn't it be better for me to use...

@jasbushey Since I'm not an advanced rider and mostly like, as you say, it is the technique, then wouldn't it be better for me to use pads that are with less aggressive bite for the front brake to avoid accidental harder than needed pull on the lever? And with a system weight of just less than 200 lbs and definitely not riding DH as fast as an advanced rider, then having maximum brake power might come secondary to modulation?

Honest question: have you learned to use your front and rear brakes independently? One of the surest ways to have front brake problems is to use it when you shouldn't, and there are a lot of times where you need to brake but it's helpful to go light on the front brake or even stay off it completely. Especially if the trail is slippery (like dust, gravel, wet roots, mud, off camber, etc), it can be helpful to skip the front brake on the most egregious sections. There are times in the PNW when I'll switch from front and rear braking to just rear brake, then back to front and rear multiple times in one section of trail. It's a skill I didn't learn for close to a decade of mountain bike racing, but I started crashing a lot less once I learned it!

4
matmattmatthew
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11/1/2023 2:45pm

Metallic front and rear on all my bikes for the last 10 years.  Even my XC and Singlespeed bikes.  I recently bought an Epic evo and did a couple of rides and thought the brakes were absolute trash,  then I had the thought to check the pads and sure enough they were organic.  I swapped them out for Metallic and now they are 10x better.  I also like running all Metallic in case I need to swap parts between bikes for whatever reason, I personally feel that once you run one pad type on a rotor, that's the only pad type you should use on that rotor.  

3
freebiker
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Colorado Springs AG
11/1/2023 6:32pm
TEAMROBOT wrote:
One thing that I haven't heard mentioned here yet, but make sure to clean, sand, and bed-in the rotors when you switch pad material. When you...

One thing that I haven't heard mentioned here yet, but make sure to clean, sand, and bed-in the rotors when you switch pad material. When you bed-in a new set of brake pads and/or rotors, the brake pads are leaving material in the pores of the brake rotor permanently. This is critical for good braking, but when you switch pad materials without adequately cleaning the pores of the rotor it creates a mismatch between brake pad and rotor.

luisgutrod wrote:
I even hear people say it's a no-go if you used metallic and want to go organic after, the rotor will be cooked.. but I guess...

I even hear people say it's a no-go if you used metallic and want to go organic after, the rotor will be cooked.. but I guess I could be sanded.. 

Yes 

NMK
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11/2/2023 1:55am

@jasbushey I use mostly rear brakes and what I want to avoid are the times when I get a bit out of control and need to scrub off speed fast and then unintentionally pull too hard on the front brakes because of bumpy terrain or poor balance and get pitched forward. I haven't gotten tossed from the bike yet because of this but IMO, if I can put on front, pads with less initial bite, why not. 

11/2/2023 4:12am

On my Magura mt5 I am running mixed pads at front,(doesn't need to get hot to start working) and metallic at back, and I am pretty happy.

jasbushey
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11/2/2023 7:04am Edited Date/Time 11/2/2023 7:11am

"I use mostly rear brakes".  This is incorrect braking technique that you should look to adjust.  The front controls more braking power and you should use more front brake prior when setting up on turns, especially in a straight line.  When you are in the turn and the bike is leaned front brake is not your friend and rear is a bit more.  Learning braking zones will have a big impact on not going over the bars as you will be off the brakes on times that would send you over.  I suggest doing a section trail with only one of the brakes engaged at a time (slowly) and learning how each works well.  Teamrobot was spot on with his comment.  

Here is a video for you to help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFcj7078gtA if you don't feel like investing in coaching.  I think it would go a long way based on your responses.  

As for the modulation question on the front resulting in going over the bars.  I haven't used organic pads on my bikes, so its hard for me to answer with experience, just going on the parking lot feel with my wife's organics.  I would assume XC racers use organic more as a lot of the courses are slower and therefore they use finer braking in the first 1/2 of the power zone.  Over wet roots and rocks for example at slower speeds this would help more as you may only be feathering the brakes.  A full brake pull jack will likely result in over the bars on both compounds as I would think power is not much different in the 50-100% power range.  I asked my wife your question (intermediate biker) and she had no more concerns with organic vs the MTX she is using now (with more power). 

I personally think you are over thinking this and should just focus on improving your brake technique, not the compound you are using.  Your MT7s with Swissstop pads are one of the best combos and shouldn't give you a higher chance of going over the bars than a full organic pad.  I haven't used your exact combo, but looking at swissstop pads you have a 9/10 modulation score with a brake that is rated very high for modulation as well as power.  

1
NMK
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11/2/2023 10:08am

@jasbushey I should further clarify, I use fronts going into the turns but of the few occasions where I was pitched forward, I was going over some bad spots a bit too fast and needed the to scrub off speed and real bumpy terrain with poor body position caused me to pull on the front brake lever harder than necessary and therefore, the pitch forward. I am sure if I had my body in better balance, then it would have been all good but when I go a bit faster than my pay grade down bad sections, bad things can happen.

Magura just replied to me saying using sintered pads can void my warranty and for best feel and modulation on the front and still have the braking power I need for my weight, I should reduce to a 180 disc and use their Performance pads. 

1
TEAMROBOT
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11/2/2023 10:26am
NMK wrote:
@jasbushey I use mostly rear brakes and what I want to avoid are the times when I get a bit out of control and need to...

@jasbushey I use mostly rear brakes and what I want to avoid are the times when I get a bit out of control and need to scrub off speed fast and then unintentionally pull too hard on the front brakes because of bumpy terrain or poor balance and get pitched forward. I haven't gotten tossed from the bike yet because of this but IMO, if I can put on front, pads with less initial bite, why not. 

First of all, I want to state this is such a great discussion and there's no shame in asking questions, learning, or not knowing something yet. Everyone on this forum was a newb at one point.

Based on your feedback about your brake technique, it sounds like you're not going to see much change in your riding experience by changing front brake compounds, whereas you stand to see huge positive changes by working on your braking technique. Even when you said "I use mostly rear brakes," that makes it sound like you're not comfortable using your front brake in situations where you should. I agree with the above comments that you might stand to benefit a lot from coaching, or watching videos about good braking technique, and especially from picking a very short section of trail to hike over and over again to practice different brakes and braking techniques. There are bike problems that money can solve, and there are bike problems that only the rider can solve. I think the case you're describing may be the latter scenario.

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NMK
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11/2/2023 12:02pm

@TEAMROBOT I need more than just lessons, I need to dial back maybe 40 years. I have been a road cyclists all my life and 2 years ago, at the ripe age of 57, I started eMTB. My FTP is around 3.2 w/kg and estimated VO2 Max is around 45 so I'm in decent shape in my age group and with my new Levo SL, I try to get 2 ~ 3 trail rides per week (weather permitting) with each ride around 50 km and 1000 ~ 1300 meters vertical. I have progressed nicely with berms, jumps and rocky trails and next spring I'll be in Wexl, Austria for lessons. I know pretty much all there is to know about road bikes but MTB is just another level with so many more variables and options. I just want to make sure that I suck is because of me and not my equipment of which I have tried to optimize to my needs and to help me ride better, even if marginally because anything to help me avoid crashes is a bonus. At my age, crashing really sucks. Over analysis is very possible because I like data and I like to tweak. On my eMTB rides, I still use my Wahoo and "ride to power" whenever possible and I'm still tweaking with my compression and rebound, saddle position, bar angle, brake positioning, etc... the list goes on...

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TEAMROBOT
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11/2/2023 12:31pm Edited Date/Time 11/2/2023 12:31pm

Thanks for the info! If your profile info is right and you're still located in Ventura, I was just out in your neck of the woods on Sunday for Phil Gaimon's Cookie Fondo in the craziest wind I've ever ridden in. It was great: https://www.strava.com/activities/10128314161#kudos

You sound like a great candidate for lessons! There is so much safety and confidence available in learning to ride the bike correctly, no matter what age you are. The benefit of being 17 years old is that learning the hard way has fewer consequences because you're made of rubber. At 57, it sounds like you don't want to learn the hard way! I don't know the situation for MTB skills coaches in the area, but I'm a pretty good skills coach in the area. If you ever want to meet up for lessons, my rate is $150 an hour. I had a similar coaching experience from a pro skills coach when I was well into my racing career that transformed my riding forever, so I highly recommend coaching.

1
NMK
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11/2/2023 1:09pm

@TEAMROBOT Thanks and appreciate your kind words. I wish I was in Ventura then I would get some sessions in with you but when registering here, I filled in Ventura to make life easier. Parents and brother live there, perfect year round weather but... windy... I hope you had some serious tail wind in the fondo! The elevation profile looks challenging!

I am in Budapest so that's why I'll drive over to Wexl, Austria in the spring for lessons. With crappy ski seasons, many are adding MTB trails to supplement. We have some decent MTB trails here in Budapest but to get to the trails means 30 minutes to 1 hour of riding, good warm up. The local trails are actually good enough for my level. Progression is hard because my reaction time is just not like before but better now than when I'm 70. Yes, crashes can come with dire consequences. I'm still nursing a badly twisted ankle from early summer and just last week, I got a bit over confident on a jump, overshot and landed at the bottom of the connecting berm that was full of wet leaves. Wet leaves truly suck. So it's back on my road bike and winter indoor structured training for me.

1
DServy
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11/2/2023 1:12pm
TEAMROBOT wrote:
Thanks for the info! If your profile info is right and you're still located in Ventura, I was just out in your neck of the woods...

Thanks for the info! If your profile info is right and you're still located in Ventura, I was just out in your neck of the woods on Sunday for Phil Gaimon's Cookie Fondo in the craziest wind I've ever ridden in. It was great: https://www.strava.com/activities/10128314161#kudos

You sound like a great candidate for lessons! There is so much safety and confidence available in learning to ride the bike correctly, no matter what age you are. The benefit of being 17 years old is that learning the hard way has fewer consequences because you're made of rubber. At 57, it sounds like you don't want to learn the hard way! I don't know the situation for MTB skills coaches in the area, but I'm a pretty good skills coach in the area. If you ever want to meet up for lessons, my rate is $150 an hour. I had a similar coaching experience from a pro skills coach when I was well into my racing career that transformed my riding forever, so I highly recommend coaching.

I'd pay $150 to have the robot laugh at my general lack of skills. 

But seriously, getting coaching no matter what level of riding you're at is probably the best value for dollar spend you can make biking. 

Also, getting some cones and setting up skills drills in a park or road and practicing new things AWAY from trails is invaluable. Give yourself a safe space to learn and experiment with techniques you're working on.  

1
NMK
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11/2/2023 1:22pm

@DServy Yeah, I totally agree, especially about the cones and skills drills of which I totally don't do, but I know I must do. Coming over from road cycling, riding around cones was done back when I was in the 2nd grade... Amongst many things, I still need to learn to manual and bunny hop... basics, some say requirements while others say not so much... either way, I suck at them... I watch a lot of YT videos, really helps but when I see someone like Jeff Kendall-Weed doing wheelies down the trail with such ease... ugh... makes me remember how old and limited I am... but hey, back to the OP, I do have a better idea on f & r brake pads... Tongue

1
jasbushey
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Durango, CO US
11/3/2023 9:36am

NMK, heck yeah for getting into mountain biking at 57!  As others mention, lessons will go further than anything you put on your bike.  Having a good foundation from lessons will be worth it in the long run and you will have more fun.  

Straight up, your bike (looking at the picture) is dialed.  I wouldn't focus much on the parts on it.  It's really easy to do that with mountain bike media these days.  They do an amazing job of giving you upgraditis that is completely unnecessary.  You have an awesome bike that will work great for you.  

If you haven't, I would also suggest investing in pads.  Knee + Elbow for sure, padded chamois, a lightweight full face and if you are riding the bike park a chest protector will also be helpful, but for pedalling can be a bit hot.  A back protector pack could be smart though.  

I wish you years of hooting and hollering in the woods having a blast.  That is what it's all about. 

1
NMK
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11/3/2023 10:49am

@jasbushey Thanks! I am totally crazy about my Levo SL, more so than my road bike. Not sure if it is the bike or the adrenaline rush or a bit a both. Mountain biking makes road cycling so boring! Yeah, you hit on an important point... pads... I always end up getting the necessary protection... after then crash. Now I've got some nice elbow, knee, shoulder, chest and back pads. Wish I had them earlier. Still learning, though often the hard way. My next purchase will be a full face helmet. I don't think I will do anything so crazy to warrant it but better to be on the safe side. The pads and a full face helmet will definitely be a challenge in the hot summers and maybe I'll start a new thread... Is there an easy way to take off shirts with built in shoulder, chest and back pads. Laughing

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