Weight vs mobility in dh racing

I think both the rider weight and height difference make a difference. It's something that Minnaar talks about in Vital's interview. The difference in body position for a 5'7" rider (Goldstone) and a 6'2" rider is huge, especially considering the stack only changes by 10mm between a size M and size XL V10. A shorter rider can ride with a more vertical torso and more centered on the bike.

With the rider being such a major component of system weight, it matters more than other disciplines. There's only so much structure available in the tire lugs, the terrain, frame members, etc. As a larger rider, I notice I move a lot more loose terrain around than my smaller riding buddies. Losing some weight can mean better support available in the dirt and more ability to change direction rather than smashing through obstacles. One guy's opinion...

I think there is something to the higher weight, less mobility thing, but to me that isn't the major thing that makes Jackson's riding different. The biggest thing I see is Jackson's corner speed on steep terrain, which I put (in part) down to his light weight allowing him to brake later and slow himself down for corners more easily than a heavier rider. Jackson seems to be able to gap into sections, clearing over bumps and holes, and then slow himself down on a dime. A heavier rider like Loic or Minnaar wouldn't be able to brake enough for the corner, so would need to stay planted on the ground and brake through the holes before hitting the corner, making the track effectively rougher and more physical for them in those sections. I think what you may be observing as mobility/flexibility may be more down to braking. When you're braking, you're in a braced, more rigid position than if you're off the brakes. Because Jackson has to brake less, he is probably able to spend less time in that braced, braking position and more time light on the bike, popping and bouncing between different lines on the track.

That said, Jackson's phenomenal skill on the bike is probably 90-plus percent of gives him his insane corner speed, its not just about his weight. On the flipside, Loic and Minnaar have an advantage on high speed tracks where their additional mass helps them hold momentum. Jackson seems to be able to neutralize this advantage, again, through his phenomenal bike handling skills. His ability to pump and generate speed on flatter terrain seems almost unmatched. It is going to be really interesting to see Jackson in Fort William this year, as we've often seen larger riders excel there. 

Dak said the same thing on B Practice podcast

I seem to remember Richie Rude saying he lost around 25 pounds when he started working with Graves when he was switching to enduro. Loic wants to be the final EDR champion?

Ok, ok. My understanding of the strength element in DH is really about the ability to take a big hit, not necessarily to intentionally plow through everything. I'm thinking of times where you land a drop deep rather than slowing down to take a smoother landing. Or getting off line and having to save a big hit you weren't expecting. From this idea, I can see 2 reasons why Loic may want to lose weight. Less mass means it takes less strength to hold yourself up in a big hit. Also, bike racing requires quickness (something Jackson most likely is better at than most, based on what people say about his riding), and it gets to be difficult to remain quick with all that muscle mass. Loic is getting older, so he may be protecting for loss of quickness and potential loss of absolute strength as he ages, and maybe he thinks losing some of the bulk will help him keep his career going longer.

i don't think it's getting into the weeds at all! it's a reality w/ downhill. different rider sizes, different track sections/conditions. the diversity is what keeps it exciting. the fact a jackson and a greg can be competitive on the same tracks is pretty awesome.

i always fall back to a story told by friends racing sea otter DH. if anyone is familiar w/ the track, there's the upper section of track that ends up dropping into a steep (for the track) fast, straight line that levels out and goes uphill for a bit. in practice, a lighter rider entered the section first, a good bit ahead of the heavier rider. by the uphill, the lighter rider was having to pedal to keep speed at the top as the heavier rider just blew by him coasting without any effort. that's a contrast to a light rider having an advantage in  braking in the steeps.

it's such a fun, technical sport that has so many variables! i find it interesting that riders like loic or greg have analyzed jackson's style or body type and think adapting to it is necessary to keep up. maybe it is. i'd just figure at greg or loic's experience level, trying to change or significantly re-develop a riding style would be going backwards, but who knows? can't wait for the season to start!

Something that the bike industry doesn't seem to consider is that the forces involved with a heavier rider are much higher compared to a lighter rider, hence the braking comment above. 90kg at the same speed compared to 60kg creates significantly higher forces on tires, wheels, frame stiffness and fork stiffness, yet you don't really see companies making stronger/stiffer bikes for bigger riders, and both lighter and heavier riders ride the same wheels and tires at mostly the same pressures...

Smaller riders also sit more IN the bike compared to larger riders who sit more ON the bike relatively speaking, creating higher leverages on the bike in turns due to the higher center of gravity. While momentum is on a heavier rider's side in rough terrain, changing direction quickly is not for the same reason.

Just some food for thought...

Lower height means a lower centre of gravity essentially. So Brosnan, Laurie & Jackson have a low COG = Turn better in science land.

This all gets thrown out the window when you have Greg, Jack Moir etc who are well over 6ft with long limbs

Taller riders have more leverage, can soak up bumps better, again in theory.

This all gets thrown out the window when you have balls of muscle like Bulldog and Finn Isles.

see where I'm going with this, In theory you can have a "perfect rider build" but I think the Cranial Matter up stairs is what determines success more than anything.

Partly true - heavier riders SHOULD have different components - especially wheels and tyres, but its easier to sell 'one-size-fits-most' so that doesn't happen. 

The other thing though is that the energy involved is more linked to speed than weight (thats pure ground speed, not ability!). Energy increases with the square of speed so a 60kg rider travelling very fast is putting more work through the bike than a 80kg rider on slow terrain. I think if you look at EWS pros vs DH pro's their suspension isn't drastically different to the a weekened warrior but world cup DH bikes are basically unrideable to the average person! EWS speeds are much closer to what a punter experiences so the set up doesn't need to change as much

This is one (of many) areas that women have been stitched up - because they weigh less on average are often given smaller rotors, skinny tyres and generally lighter components all around, even if they are rapid on the trail, which would SUCK to use for them!

100% - Im 193cm tall and weigh around 102kg + kit. Ride and XL bike and combined weight on e bike around 130kg / regular bike 120kg i reckon?

I will never be as nimble on a bike as smaller dudes, just not gonna happen. Im a good rider, and have ridden for years and can hold my own but i often find when im following shorter guys they 

A - sit lower in the bike and can corner far harder, and brake much later.

B - can navigate corners with a lower centre of gravity while my head is close to clipping trees, and getting smashed by branches they went under.

C - Navigate steep stuff with less "bucking" and forward momentum caused by braking bumps, drops etc. 

Cant change my height, maybe my weight somewhat but its just observations ive made made riding with hundreds of crew over the years.

The variable that throws all of this off is a formula one car vs a moto GP bike.  The car wins every time. It's heavier, longer, bigger but has more of a contact patch and down force. (is it apple to apples comparison, of course not)   Do I think being lighter helps, absolutely, can I say Goldstone is the new prototype and his body type is better than Amaury or Loic or Dak, I do not believe that at all. 

For sure power to weight is a huge advantage and I think thats all Loic is trying to do.  I took Daks statement as bike/wheel technology just can not handle his and Loic's neutron style and the G's they can put into them.

great thread . 

Mobility and carrying extra weight (assuming muscle) are not mutually exclusive (unless you're a serious strength athlete). For JG's bike to move under him doesn't require extreme levels of mobility however it will require most of the things identified here already, namely: 

Strength, power endurance, high VO2, reaction time and the ability to relax muscles (that’s a deep one to go into and TBH is based on the comments of Dr Stu McGill).

Given that DH is an all body sport, isolating parts of the body in pursuit of performance (rather than correction) wouldn't likely provide a great deal of benefit.

Re the weight side of things, I'd agree that being heavier certainly limits cornering speed. At 6'4 and ~122kg before I put clothes on, cornering is always a challenge for me compared to lighter riding friends. But that said, this weight also creates more momentum when pointed downhill. I also think that there is a much higher chance of that weight 'sinking' you into holes more, rather than 'floating' across them. But then again that doesn't explain the success of heavier riders like Peaty and Minnaar).

The heavier rider moving loose terrain around thing is very real. A light rider can find support in places a heavy rider would just blow apart. 

At 250lbs x 6’4” I get jealous watching friends rip into ruts and loose berms that I’d just scrape off the map.

That said, the weight advantage when plowing is also very real. When I follow smaller guys way better than me through chunky straight line stuff I end up right up their ass and hard on the brakes very quickly.
 

That last sentence is making me a little uncomfortable for some reason.

I would have to agree on a physiological basis. DH Mountain biking is performed mostly in the sagittal plane of motion, with some frontal plane motion as well. It's a fairly straight forward sport movement-wise. Example: You don't need to be a top level yogi master in order to be a DH racer like rock climbers have to be for example. This might be why I don't see many average riders stretching before they ride.

As you old PT saying goes: "If you don't USE it....you LOOSE it." Meaning, if you don't work on mobility stuff, you will loose it and get super stiff (not the good kind of stiff either). Just like if you don't work out you will become weaker, same concept.

So if you crash, get thrown off the bike or get pushed into a weird position while shredding a turn, you are now at a higher risk for injury if you aren't mobile. 99% of the time, Injuries happen at the END of the range of motion, NOT in the middle. So, if you are tight/stiff and don't have much of a range of motion, you are way more open for injury and injuries can stop you from riding. 

Idk about the pros but I am one of the only people I see at the trailhead before the ride doing dynamic stretching with lots of rotational movements and making sure to get to the end ranges of motion because I know most of the time I won't go to those end ranges when I ride. Take care of your meat suit guys! even 5 min of dynamic stretching can make a huge difference if you are consistent! 

Hit me up if you want some ideas

This has been such a good discussion to read, all around. Nice input folks. Fun to read. 

I thought a big part of Bruni's bulking up, which for me originates from the Gee Atherton school of training, was a lot to do with injury prevention. As in, bulky/stronger guys can brush off bigger and more crashes in practice?

I don't want to turn this into another "aero" thread, but when I go road cycling with my wife (-15kg and much thinner waist), regardless of the bike (I.e. I have observed this across many different bikes) she always pulls away considerably from me on descents despite no braking, which I can only attribute to my much wider shoulders and waist. I could see this having a big effect at Leogang and Fort William.

If I were a pro, I'd prefer to be the lighter rider. Less mass = less stress on components, less load on the tires, and better ability to change direction/accelerate/decelerate. The benefits associated (fewer broken parts, more cornering grip, flickability) would, IMO, outweigh (no pun intended) the heavier rider's increased momentum over rough obstacles. 

Hey mate,

Wanted to dm and ask you about the dynamic stretching but it says “Sorry, this user is not accepting private messages.”.

I’m a 32y.o. guy in a third MTB season after 15 years of body abuse riding BMX street Tried enduro racing, mostly liked it, this year wish to try DH racing. Not looking for results, rather a great experience. I do workout consistently and always do a “generic” stretch a bit before a ride but really miss knowledge of how to stretch properly overall and before a ride. Curious if there are any special moves related to MTB.

Thank you in advance!

I seem to remember a podcast recently that discussed this where they talked about durability of parts aswell ?
a heavier rider knows that if they push hard they wont have a wheel left at the bottom, where as a lighter rider wont be putting the same amount of stress into the components.

And simply if you lose a couple kilos, its less weight your legs need to support, more energy left to sprint, as he was talking about being more tired in the runs.

How I understood what Loic was saying that he just needs to lose a couple kilos to maintain better weight/strength (could even use road term watts per kilo) ratio to battle Jackson in his own terms of being that "strong bulky rider still". Him losing those kilos isn't something that no one is going to even notice on TV screen.

Sure thing, sorry I will try to figure out how to turn that messages option back on here. 

This is a great mobility flow routine for mountain biking, in the video he does it from a standing position, but I would suggest to start it from the traditional "downward dog" yoga pose after doing some foot pedals (to get the achilles and calves stretched out) then you go into the his stretching routine. I would repeat it like 2-3 times and keep it dynamic, static stretching doesn't really do much for you. 

https://youtube.com/shorts/VQqabRnOR1E?si=iQWCy0DUmMqBxD5G