Just curious about the D3 testing better than the D4. I haven’t seen much testing at all for DH helmets. If you have a link, I’d...
Just curious about the D3 testing better than the D4. I haven’t seen much testing at all for DH helmets. If you have a link, I’d love to check it out.
+1, I am curious about that test too, especially owning both helmets.
Otherwise, my D4 feels fantastic, but I haven's crashed on it (and I don't want to), so I can't exactly speak about it in terms of safety. It is very comfortable, but gives me some hamster cheeks. Before that, the helmet that felt most comfortable was the D2, so I rode D2's quite a bit, while also owning a D3. I must confess here that I am a bit of a TLD whore and wouldn't wear anything else. I also seems to me that early D3's are different from later ones in terms of fit. I have an early Pinstripe Carbon and a late Fiberlite and the latter feels better, even if it's heavier.
Now, regarding moto helmets, it they were safer and better wouldn't pro athletes wear them? I believe Josh only wore the moto SE2 after his big crash in Leogang in 2010 (I think), before switching to Fox. I have also heard recently that moto helmets are less expensive in comparison and you can get a better price on one, because there is more stuff to discound once the season is over. But I have only heard thar recently, didn't research it.
As far as I can remeber, when the D3 came out and became the new benchmark (hello Fox, 100%!), one of the statements about it was that compared to moto helmets it was rather designed to take impacts at slower speeds from sharper objects, as opposed to moto, where helmets are rather tested to withstand impacts at higher speeds but on smoother surfaces.
Just got a new Fox Rampage Pro Carbon and I'm super impressed. It's light, comfy, surprisingly well ventilated, and light. I'm happy that full faces are...
Just got a new Fox Rampage Pro Carbon and I'm super impressed. It's light, comfy, surprisingly well ventilated, and light. I'm happy that full faces are getting bigger in general. I'm no scientist, but I have done an egg drop experiment in middle school and I know that a bigger helmet has more room for the squishy parts that protect your brain. Compared to my old D2's and D3's it's just a much bigger bubble around my brain. It's also very, very expensive, so that sucks, but it's a very cool product. Coming off a nine year old D3 so I think it's a pretty big upgrade in safety, no offense to TLD's 2015 product team.
I still used a D3 for DH and got the moto V3 from Fox for riding moto (the one looking identical and fit to RPC) and it’s definitely a different feel around the ol brain that’s for sure. Little more protective feeling.. I’ve been thinking it’s time for an upgrade soon.
+1, I am curious about that test too, especially owning both helmets.Otherwise, my D4 feels fantastic, but I haven's crashed on it (and I don't want...
+1, I am curious about that test too, especially owning both helmets.
Otherwise, my D4 feels fantastic, but I haven's crashed on it (and I don't want to), so I can't exactly speak about it in terms of safety. It is very comfortable, but gives me some hamster cheeks. Before that, the helmet that felt most comfortable was the D2, so I rode D2's quite a bit, while also owning a D3. I must confess here that I am a bit of a TLD whore and wouldn't wear anything else. I also seems to me that early D3's are different from later ones in terms of fit. I have an early Pinstripe Carbon and a late Fiberlite and the latter feels better, even if it's heavier.
Now, regarding moto helmets, it they were safer and better wouldn't pro athletes wear them? I believe Josh only wore the moto SE2 after his big crash in Leogang in 2010 (I think), before switching to Fox. I have also heard recently that moto helmets are less expensive in comparison and you can get a better price on one, because there is more stuff to discound once the season is over. But I have only heard thar recently, didn't research it.
As far as I can remeber, when the D3 came out and became the new benchmark (hello Fox, 100%!), one of the statements about it was that compared to moto helmets it was rather designed to take impacts at slower speeds from sharper objects, as opposed to moto, where helmets are rather tested to withstand impacts at higher speeds but on smoother surfaces.
Mx
Because pro athletes are generally paid to use and promote the MTB product regardless of how they feel about it’s safety (current exception is the a stars riders who are all using the moto helmet). Designing for only high impact speeds was the old way of thinking until 6D came in and revolutionized the moto helmet industry. Now a days, any modern moto helmet from a reputable manufacturer should handle low speeds well since they are no longer designing to meet the dot/snell standard and are now designing to meet ECE22.06. I would discourage people from using a dot/snell helmet for MTB but from what I can tell, ECE22.06 helmets should work great for MTB as long as the rider doesn’t mind a little more weight and less airflow compared to a DH helmet.
I think we are overestimating how much actual development goes into the DH vs Moto helmet thing, it just comes down to amount of Styrofoam and thickness of the shell. I race woods moto and ride DH park and all that jazz and I have probably had harder crashes in the bike park.
95% of the time I crash on the moto I'm usually landing on dirt and trees, most of the time you are on really gnarly rock stuff its slower speed. The MTB you are usually hauling ass on rocks and when you land you are going to probably land on those same rocks.
I think it comes down to the weight, nobody wants to wear a super heavy DH helmet especially the way your neck is already a bit strained going downhill but looking up and out.
Just got a new Fox Rampage Pro Carbon and I'm super impressed. It's light, comfy, surprisingly well ventilated, and light. I'm happy that full faces are...
Just got a new Fox Rampage Pro Carbon and I'm super impressed. It's light, comfy, surprisingly well ventilated, and light. I'm happy that full faces are getting bigger in general. I'm no scientist, but I have done an egg drop experiment in middle school and I know that a bigger helmet has more room for the squishy parts that protect your brain. Compared to my old D2's and D3's it's just a much bigger bubble around my brain. It's also very, very expensive, so that sucks, but it's a very cool product. Coming off a nine year old D3 so I think it's a pretty big upgrade in safety, no offense to TLD's 2015 product team.
Fit wise do the fox helmets tend to run more oval or more round?
I went from a large D3 that fit very well to a pretty snug large RPC, but I've been told the pads pack down a little in the tight spots with time. It's not uncomfortable at all, but it's very snug and secure. That's actually something I like about it. The D3 was comfy but it felt like there was a millimeter of padding between me and the foam, whereas the new Fox helmet has pretty significant pads all around my noggin.
+1, I am curious about that test too, especially owning both helmets.Otherwise, my D4 feels fantastic, but I haven's crashed on it (and I don't want...
+1, I am curious about that test too, especially owning both helmets.
Otherwise, my D4 feels fantastic, but I haven's crashed on it (and I don't want to), so I can't exactly speak about it in terms of safety. It is very comfortable, but gives me some hamster cheeks. Before that, the helmet that felt most comfortable was the D2, so I rode D2's quite a bit, while also owning a D3. I must confess here that I am a bit of a TLD whore and wouldn't wear anything else. I also seems to me that early D3's are different from later ones in terms of fit. I have an early Pinstripe Carbon and a late Fiberlite and the latter feels better, even if it's heavier.
Now, regarding moto helmets, it they were safer and better wouldn't pro athletes wear them? I believe Josh only wore the moto SE2 after his big crash in Leogang in 2010 (I think), before switching to Fox. I have also heard recently that moto helmets are less expensive in comparison and you can get a better price on one, because there is more stuff to discound once the season is over. But I have only heard thar recently, didn't research it.
As far as I can remeber, when the D3 came out and became the new benchmark (hello Fox, 100%!), one of the statements about it was that compared to moto helmets it was rather designed to take impacts at slower speeds from sharper objects, as opposed to moto, where helmets are rather tested to withstand impacts at higher speeds but on smoother surfaces.
Mx
I'll let the person who told me chime in on the testing if they choose to,
I hope one of the larger mountain bike organizations will invest in this space. Everyone in the industry will have some kind of conflict of interest or mismatch of the particular staffing and skills to answer these questions as well as possible, but there is plenty of opportunity to improve on where we are now. It may be counterintuitive, but now that there are several labs publishing peer-reviewed papers on bike helmet safety, we can see more clearly how far there is to go.
I've done a literature search and haven't yet found an answer to some questions raised in this thread.
1) How strong is the evidence that two different sizes (e.g. Small and Large) of the same make+model+year helmet would score so similarly on a test that we can continue to lump all the sizes together whenever that make+model+year helmet is discussed? I've read the methods section of the core Virginia Tech Helmet Lab STAR paper and it appeared to me that they only test one size. One reason we might care about this was raised earlier: we know from the manufacturers that some helmets are offered in (say) 5 total sizes but only (say) 2 or 3 shell sizes, and the total number of sizes offered is accomplished by changing the proportions of the padding. How similarly do they perform? They might all "meet or exceed ____," but that's a different conversation. That leads to another reason we might care: with the rise of riders' awareness of the VT STAR scoring system, some people want to make distinctions between helmets that each fall within the 5 star category but lower or higher raw score (rather than 5 stars versus < 5 stars). It would put us in an even murkier place were the test data to show that the difference in between sizes of the same model were sometimes comparable to the difference between models. The former we basically ignore (for now) and the latter we're beginning to see people make a bigger deal out of. That doesn't make sense.
2) Meets or exceeds ____. I've looked for a description of the the ASTM 1952 downhill helmet test standard with the idea of comparing it to the new ECE moto helmet standard (not that I would necessarily have the prerequisite knowledge to complete that work personally), and the ASTM document is paywalled. It's not a lot of money but it helps illustrate the idea that this isn't a space for the lone hobbyist forum poster.
3) Helmet manufacturers' private testing. They don't publish this stuff, though the marketing people may choose to share some edited view of it for their own good reasons. To what extent are comparisons of the info released by brands useful when the test criteria can be different from one brand to another?
On the subject of private testing, I have to give Leatt a lot of credit there. They actually publish test reports and whitepapers for a lot of their products.
If they claim a product passes a test above the norm, they almost always have a test report you can read. For example, their 6.5 goggles pass military ballistic impact test requirements. Leatt has the test report linked on the product page for anyone to read.
I hope one of the larger mountain bike organizations will invest in this space. Everyone in the industry will have some kind of conflict of interest...
I hope one of the larger mountain bike organizations will invest in this space. Everyone in the industry will have some kind of conflict of interest or mismatch of the particular staffing and skills to answer these questions as well as possible, but there is plenty of opportunity to improve on where we are now. It may be counterintuitive, but now that there are several labs publishing peer-reviewed papers on bike helmet safety, we can see more clearly how far there is to go.
I've done a literature search and haven't yet found an answer to some questions raised in this thread.
1) How strong is the evidence that two different sizes (e.g. Small and Large) of the same make+model+year helmet would score so similarly on a test that we can continue to lump all the sizes together whenever that make+model+year helmet is discussed? I've read the methods section of the core Virginia Tech Helmet Lab STAR paper and it appeared to me that they only test one size. One reason we might care about this was raised earlier: we know from the manufacturers that some helmets are offered in (say) 5 total sizes but only (say) 2 or 3 shell sizes, and the total number of sizes offered is accomplished by changing the proportions of the padding. How similarly do they perform? They might all "meet or exceed ____," but that's a different conversation. That leads to another reason we might care: with the rise of riders' awareness of the VT STAR scoring system, some people want to make distinctions between helmets that each fall within the 5 star category but lower or higher raw score (rather than 5 stars versus < 5 stars). It would put us in an even murkier place were the test data to show that the difference in between sizes of the same model were sometimes comparable to the difference between models. The former we basically ignore (for now) and the latter we're beginning to see people make a bigger deal out of. That doesn't make sense.
2) Meets or exceeds ____. I've looked for a description of the the ASTM 1952 downhill helmet test standard with the idea of comparing it to the new ECE moto helmet standard (not that I would necessarily have the prerequisite knowledge to complete that work personally), and the ASTM document is paywalled. It's not a lot of money but it helps illustrate the idea that this isn't a space for the lone hobbyist forum poster.
3) Helmet manufacturers' private testing. They don't publish this stuff, though the marketing people may choose to share some edited view of it for their own good reasons. To what extent are comparisons of the info released by brands useful when the test criteria can be different from one brand to another?
I think a big reason why we don't see independent tests of multiple sizes is cost and time. It's already expensive to do extensive helmet testing, let alone doing it 3 times for each shell size.
Something I'd really like to see researched is how difference in neck and core strength affect outcomes in crashes with a given helmet.
Like should we do some neck strengthening exercises to minimize risk of severe concussion.
Yet another F1 example, but I can't help but be amazed how the drivers have 40G+ crashes and literally walk away from them. Surely their SC standards have a huge amount of influence in how the drivers aren't getting injured so easily. Previous eras a 40G+ crash would be fatal.
Anyone know what helmet Reece Wilson is using? When he came down he grabbed his 100% Aircraft2 helmet for the podium but that was not what he was riding. I am assuming it is an MX helmet? Same with Dak, Ronan and Pinky, are they using the Alpinestars MX helmet?
Anyone know what helmet Reece Wilson is using? When he came down he grabbed his 100% Aircraft2 helmet for the podium but that was not what...
Anyone know what helmet Reece Wilson is using? When he came down he grabbed his 100% Aircraft2 helmet for the podium but that was not what he was riding. I am assuming it is an MX helmet? Same with Dak, Ronan and Pinky, are they using the Alpinestars MX helmet?
Anyone know what helmet Reece Wilson is using? When he came down he grabbed his 100% Aircraft2 helmet for the podium but that was not what...
Anyone know what helmet Reece Wilson is using? When he came down he grabbed his 100% Aircraft2 helmet for the podium but that was not what he was riding. I am assuming it is an MX helmet? Same with Dak, Ronan and Pinky, are they using the Alpinestars MX helmet?
Reece had a big head impact in a DH specific helmet (100%) and doesn't wear them any more.
+1, I am curious about that test too, especially owning both helmets.
Otherwise, my D4 feels fantastic, but I haven's crashed on it (and I don't want to), so I can't exactly speak about it in terms of safety. It is very comfortable, but gives me some hamster cheeks. Before that, the helmet that felt most comfortable was the D2, so I rode D2's quite a bit, while also owning a D3. I must confess here that I am a bit of a TLD whore and wouldn't wear anything else. I also seems to me that early D3's are different from later ones in terms of fit. I have an early Pinstripe Carbon and a late Fiberlite and the latter feels better, even if it's heavier.
Now, regarding moto helmets, it they were safer and better wouldn't pro athletes wear them? I believe Josh only wore the moto SE2 after his big crash in Leogang in 2010 (I think), before switching to Fox. I have also heard recently that moto helmets are less expensive in comparison and you can get a better price on one, because there is more stuff to discound once the season is over. But I have only heard thar recently, didn't research it.
As far as I can remeber, when the D3 came out and became the new benchmark (hello Fox, 100%!), one of the statements about it was that compared to moto helmets it was rather designed to take impacts at slower speeds from sharper objects, as opposed to moto, where helmets are rather tested to withstand impacts at higher speeds but on smoother surfaces.
Mx
I still used a D3 for DH and got the moto V3 from Fox for riding moto (the one looking identical and fit to RPC) and it’s definitely a different feel around the ol brain that’s for sure. Little more protective feeling.. I’ve been thinking it’s time for an upgrade soon.
Because pro athletes are generally paid to use and promote the MTB product regardless of how they feel about it’s safety (current exception is the a stars riders who are all using the moto helmet).
Designing for only high impact speeds was the old way of thinking until 6D came in and revolutionized the moto helmet industry. Now a days, any modern moto helmet from a reputable manufacturer should handle low speeds well since they are no longer designing to meet the dot/snell standard and are now designing to meet ECE22.06. I would discourage people from using a dot/snell helmet for MTB but from what I can tell, ECE22.06 helmets should work great for MTB as long as the rider doesn’t mind a little more weight and less airflow compared to a DH helmet.
I think we are overestimating how much actual development goes into the DH vs Moto helmet thing, it just comes down to amount of Styrofoam and thickness of the shell. I race woods moto and ride DH park and all that jazz and I have probably had harder crashes in the bike park.
95% of the time I crash on the moto I'm usually landing on dirt and trees, most of the time you are on really gnarly rock stuff its slower speed. The MTB you are usually hauling ass on rocks and when you land you are going to probably land on those same rocks.
I think it comes down to the weight, nobody wants to wear a super heavy DH helmet especially the way your neck is already a bit strained going downhill but looking up and out.
I went from a large D3 that fit very well to a pretty snug large RPC, but I've been told the pads pack down a little in the tight spots with time. It's not uncomfortable at all, but it's very snug and secure. That's actually something I like about it. The D3 was comfy but it felt like there was a millimeter of padding between me and the foam, whereas the new Fox helmet has pretty significant pads all around my noggin.
I'll let the person who told me chime in on the testing if they choose to,
Don't expect 100% in the helmet game much longer.
I hope one of the larger mountain bike organizations will invest in this space. Everyone in the industry will have some kind of conflict of interest or mismatch of the particular staffing and skills to answer these questions as well as possible, but there is plenty of opportunity to improve on where we are now. It may be counterintuitive, but now that there are several labs publishing peer-reviewed papers on bike helmet safety, we can see more clearly how far there is to go.
I've done a literature search and haven't yet found an answer to some questions raised in this thread.
1) How strong is the evidence that two different sizes (e.g. Small and Large) of the same make+model+year helmet would score so similarly on a test that we can continue to lump all the sizes together whenever that make+model+year helmet is discussed? I've read the methods section of the core Virginia Tech Helmet Lab STAR paper and it appeared to me that they only test one size. One reason we might care about this was raised earlier: we know from the manufacturers that some helmets are offered in (say) 5 total sizes but only (say) 2 or 3 shell sizes, and the total number of sizes offered is accomplished by changing the proportions of the padding. How similarly do they perform? They might all "meet or exceed ____," but that's a different conversation. That leads to another reason we might care: with the rise of riders' awareness of the VT STAR scoring system, some people want to make distinctions between helmets that each fall within the 5 star category but lower or higher raw score (rather than 5 stars versus < 5 stars). It would put us in an even murkier place were the test data to show that the difference in between sizes of the same model were sometimes comparable to the difference between models. The former we basically ignore (for now) and the latter we're beginning to see people make a bigger deal out of. That doesn't make sense.
2) Meets or exceeds ____. I've looked for a description of the the ASTM 1952 downhill helmet test standard with the idea of comparing it to the new ECE moto helmet standard (not that I would necessarily have the prerequisite knowledge to complete that work personally), and the ASTM document is paywalled. It's not a lot of money but it helps illustrate the idea that this isn't a space for the lone hobbyist forum poster.
3) Helmet manufacturers' private testing. They don't publish this stuff, though the marketing people may choose to share some edited view of it for their own good reasons. To what extent are comparisons of the info released by brands useful when the test criteria can be different from one brand to another?
On the subject of private testing, I have to give Leatt a lot of credit there. They actually publish test reports and whitepapers for a lot of their products.
If they claim a product passes a test above the norm, they almost always have a test report you can read. For example, their 6.5 goggles pass military ballistic impact test requirements. Leatt has the test report linked on the product page for anyone to read.
I think a big reason why we don't see independent tests of multiple sizes is cost and time. It's already expensive to do extensive helmet testing, let alone doing it 3 times for each shell size.
Something I'd really like to see researched is how difference in neck and core strength affect outcomes in crashes with a given helmet.
Like should we do some neck strengthening exercises to minimize risk of severe concussion.
Yet another F1 example, but I can't help but be amazed how the drivers have 40G+ crashes and literally walk away from them. Surely their SC standards have a huge amount of influence in how the drivers aren't getting injured so easily. Previous eras a 40G+ crash would be fatal.
Anyone know what helmet Reece Wilson is using? When he came down he grabbed his 100% Aircraft2 helmet for the podium but that was not what he was riding. I am assuming it is an MX helmet? Same with Dak, Ronan and Pinky, are they using the Alpinestars MX helmet?
looks like a 6D moto helmet
Looks like a 6D ATR-2.
Reece had a big head impact in a DH specific helmet (100%) and doesn't wear them any more.
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