Too early for 2025?
The Misspent Summers Ft Bill pre-race email had this cryptic line…
Does 20x10=2025?
Could this mean elite men and women might be cut...
Too early for 2025?
The Misspent Summers Ft Bill pre-race email had this cryptic line…
Does 20x10=2025?
Could this mean elite men and women might be cut to 20 & 10 riders respectively in finals next season?
Rumor for 2025 is 20 elite men in on qualifying and then a last chance qualifier for 10 more for a total of 30...
worst. idea. ever. hope it's not true. just more risk for some riders. DH is not moto, it's not F1, they're not racing against competitors on the same track at the same time. if 20 finalists is "the best tv show" for the numbers to make sense, then just leave it at that. we'll all be upset for a year or two about how it's not like the old days, lick our wounds and riders will either try to compete for top 20 or regional/national series will become more populated.
i can't even imagine the cost to put on a DH race and have it televised like they do. regardless, race format or "storytelling" isn't going to make our niche sport something that an extra 10k or 100k random viewers are going to magically start following and watching. most mountain bikers don't even follow the series. an LCQ won't change that.
worst. idea. ever. hope it's not true. just more risk for some riders. DH is not moto, it's not F1, they're not racing against competitors on...
worst. idea. ever. hope it's not true. just more risk for some riders. DH is not moto, it's not F1, they're not racing against competitors on the same track at the same time. if 20 finalists is "the best tv show" for the numbers to make sense, then just leave it at that. we'll all be upset for a year or two about how it's not like the old days, lick our wounds and riders will either try to compete for top 20 or regional/national series will become more populated.
i can't even imagine the cost to put on a DH race and have it televised like they do. regardless, race format or "storytelling" isn't going to make our niche sport something that an extra 10k or 100k random viewers are going to magically start following and watching. most mountain bikers don't even follow the series. an LCQ won't change that.
Don't think that's the intention, the top 20 is filled in qualies. Anyone with a bad run, flat, etc in qualies has another go at getting into the last 10 places in finals via LCQ. I think that sounds way better than we currently have (with no world champ, Laurie etc in finals this weekend). What we had before with a 60 rider final was better, dgmw, but if they're set on only broadcasting 30 riders then I think an LCQ will work better than the current shit show we have, where the world champ isn't protected, and has to risk 2 runs of flats/crashes etc, just to make it to the final every weekend.
worst. idea. ever. hope it's not true. just more risk for some riders. DH is not moto, it's not F1, they're not racing against competitors on...
worst. idea. ever. hope it's not true. just more risk for some riders. DH is not moto, it's not F1, they're not racing against competitors on the same track at the same time. if 20 finalists is "the best tv show" for the numbers to make sense, then just leave it at that. we'll all be upset for a year or two about how it's not like the old days, lick our wounds and riders will either try to compete for top 20 or regional/national series will become more populated.
i can't even imagine the cost to put on a DH race and have it televised like they do. regardless, race format or "storytelling" isn't going to make our niche sport something that an extra 10k or 100k random viewers are going to magically start following and watching. most mountain bikers don't even follow the series. an LCQ won't change that.
Don't think that's the intention, the top 20 is filled in qualies. Anyone with a bad run, flat, etc in qualies has another go at getting...
Don't think that's the intention, the top 20 is filled in qualies. Anyone with a bad run, flat, etc in qualies has another go at getting into the last 10 places in finals via LCQ. I think that sounds way better than we currently have (with no world champ, Laurie etc in finals this weekend). What we had before with a 60 rider final was better, dgmw, but if they're set on only broadcasting 30 riders then I think an LCQ will work better than the current shit show we have, where the world champ isn't protected, and has to risk 2 runs of flats/crashes etc, just to make it to the final every weekend.
yeah, sorry, i didn't mean to imply they only wanted 20 riders in finals. if 30 is a good show, then so be it. i think 30 is a good show for 90% of audience, even though i'd prefer to watch top 50 or 60.
i personally loved that some of the big guns didn't make it through this weekend. it keeps the whole season so much more unpredictable. LCQ wouldn't end this phenomenon, however, as only 10 more would get in, but just seems like more complications for something that isn't really that complicated and puts half the qualifiers at risk an extra time.
worst. idea. ever. hope it's not true. just more risk for some riders. DH is not moto, it's not F1, they're not racing against competitors on...
worst. idea. ever. hope it's not true. just more risk for some riders. DH is not moto, it's not F1, they're not racing against competitors on the same track at the same time. if 20 finalists is "the best tv show" for the numbers to make sense, then just leave it at that. we'll all be upset for a year or two about how it's not like the old days, lick our wounds and riders will either try to compete for top 20 or regional/national series will become more populated.
i can't even imagine the cost to put on a DH race and have it televised like they do. regardless, race format or "storytelling" isn't going to make our niche sport something that an extra 10k or 100k random viewers are going to magically start following and watching. most mountain bikers don't even follow the series. an LCQ won't change that.
Don't think that's the intention, the top 20 is filled in qualies. Anyone with a bad run, flat, etc in qualies has another go at getting...
Don't think that's the intention, the top 20 is filled in qualies. Anyone with a bad run, flat, etc in qualies has another go at getting into the last 10 places in finals via LCQ. I think that sounds way better than we currently have (with no world champ, Laurie etc in finals this weekend). What we had before with a 60 rider final was better, dgmw, but if they're set on only broadcasting 30 riders then I think an LCQ will work better than the current shit show we have, where the world champ isn't protected, and has to risk 2 runs of flats/crashes etc, just to make it to the final every weekend.
yeah, sorry, i didn't mean to imply they only wanted 20 riders in finals. if 30 is a good show, then so be it. i think...
yeah, sorry, i didn't mean to imply they only wanted 20 riders in finals. if 30 is a good show, then so be it. i think 30 is a good show for 90% of audience, even though i'd prefer to watch top 50 or 60.
i personally loved that some of the big guns didn't make it through this weekend. it keeps the whole season so much more unpredictable. LCQ wouldn't end this phenomenon, however, as only 10 more would get in, but just seems like more complications for something that isn't really that complicated and puts half the qualifiers at risk an extra time.
From your perspective, respectfully Spomer, what will it take to attract the next 10k to 100k DH race fans? Changing the well established format, that has seemingly proven successful over the years, doesn't seem to be a benefit to the racers or the current fan base. How is it going to attract new viewers when it seems to be upsetting everyone else?
going to sound like an old guy with no vision, but i just think that downhill mountain biking (or any competitive mountain biking) will always have a limited audience because of what it is. i prob feel that way b/c i've seen the audience size stay relatively similar over the last 25 years (i have no hard data on this, just personal observations from then till now).
DH is inherently niche because it's difficult to access (as a participant or a live spectator), expensive and risky. add in today's challenge of social media networks/phones dominating eyeballs and time compared to TV-style shows and that makes pulling new viewers in even more difficult.
i guess that's why i mentioned the cost of producing the tv product up above. i'm always really curious how much it costs to produce vs much revenue there actually is from advertisers or streaming fees. red bull seemed to be a dream producer/hosting provider from a business perspective. everything about rbtv broadcast could highlight their already-profitable product, they've been involved in action sports for decades and all indications were "they're not directly making money, but everyone there loves mountain biking." when a company comes in trying to directly monetize the broadcast product of a DH race, i don't see how it's possible. i'm also the guy that doesn't understand how the new gourmet donut store survives in a shop that rents for $6k/month...that's a lot of donuts to sell. LOL
i also don't think LCQ would ruin what we have now. it may actually be exciting for existing fans. i just get worried about rider safety with more race-pace runs.
(if this is a derail from 2025 talk, we can start a new thread, too. it's a fun discussion!)
Too early for 2025?
The Misspent Summers Ft Bill pre-race email had this cryptic line…
Does 20x10=2025?
Could this mean elite men and women might be cut...
Too early for 2025?
The Misspent Summers Ft Bill pre-race email had this cryptic line…
Does 20x10=2025?
Could this mean elite men and women might be cut to 20 & 10 riders respectively in finals next season?
Qualify 60. Do a “heat race” to determine 30 for finals. Give no points for qualifying and minimal points for the heat race. Make finals the vast majority of points earned like it used to be
None of the number tinkering makes any sense when it's in service of a goal that doesn't make any sense. You can't organize a sport to somehow skip right to the highlights reel and save the trouble and expense of doing everything else. (this shit is genius!)
If you make the final smaller, that makes the action in the semis/heats more important. If you make the semis smaller or eliminate them, that makes qualies/quarters more important.
If they want to go to 20 absolutely ZERO protected riders. Make a in semi your fucked. Have a mechanical in semi your fucked.
*you're
Per Martin Whitely there will be no protected riders next season (although he'd like to see a "mechanical protection" for the top 10 for stuff like broken chains).
going to sound like an old guy with no vision, but i just think that downhill mountain biking (or any competitive mountain biking) will always have...
going to sound like an old guy with no vision, but i just think that downhill mountain biking (or any competitive mountain biking) will always have a limited audience because of what it is. i prob feel that way b/c i've seen the audience size stay relatively similar over the last 25 years (i have no hard data on this, just personal observations from then till now).
DH is inherently niche because it's difficult to access (as a participant or a live spectator), expensive and risky. add in today's challenge of social media networks/phones dominating eyeballs and time compared to TV-style shows and that makes pulling new viewers in even more difficult.
i guess that's why i mentioned the cost of producing the tv product up above. i'm always really curious how much it costs to produce vs much revenue there actually is from advertisers or streaming fees. red bull seemed to be a dream producer/hosting provider from a business perspective. everything about rbtv broadcast could highlight their already-profitable product, they've been involved in action sports for decades and all indications were "they're not directly making money, but everyone there loves mountain biking." when a company comes in trying to directly monetize the broadcast product of a DH race, i don't see how it's possible. i'm also the guy that doesn't understand how the new gourmet donut store survives in a shop that rents for $6k/month...that's a lot of donuts to sell. LOL
i also don't think LCQ would ruin what we have now. it may actually be exciting for existing fans. i just get worried about rider safety with more race-pace runs.
(if this is a derail from 2025 talk, we can start a new thread, too. it's a fun discussion!)
I feel much the same way, thanks. It's a niche sport and I only know like maybe ten guys personally who follow DH closely.
The best WBD can do is quit alienating it's current audience. Go back to the old format, get Rob Warner back, and make it clear where to watch and how much it's going to set me back.
going to sound like an old guy with no vision, but i just think that downhill mountain biking (or any competitive mountain biking) will always have...
going to sound like an old guy with no vision, but i just think that downhill mountain biking (or any competitive mountain biking) will always have a limited audience because of what it is. i prob feel that way b/c i've seen the audience size stay relatively similar over the last 25 years (i have no hard data on this, just personal observations from then till now).
DH is inherently niche because it's difficult to access (as a participant or a live spectator), expensive and risky. add in today's challenge of social media networks/phones dominating eyeballs and time compared to TV-style shows and that makes pulling new viewers in even more difficult.
i guess that's why i mentioned the cost of producing the tv product up above. i'm always really curious how much it costs to produce vs much revenue there actually is from advertisers or streaming fees. red bull seemed to be a dream producer/hosting provider from a business perspective. everything about rbtv broadcast could highlight their already-profitable product, they've been involved in action sports for decades and all indications were "they're not directly making money, but everyone there loves mountain biking." when a company comes in trying to directly monetize the broadcast product of a DH race, i don't see how it's possible. i'm also the guy that doesn't understand how the new gourmet donut store survives in a shop that rents for $6k/month...that's a lot of donuts to sell. LOL
i also don't think LCQ would ruin what we have now. it may actually be exciting for existing fans. i just get worried about rider safety with more race-pace runs.
(if this is a derail from 2025 talk, we can start a new thread, too. it's a fun discussion!)
That is what scares me the most about the new deal. Red Bull could justify expenses as part of their business/advertising/marketing everything all in one shot because it totally made sense. Discovery already has little to do with cycling sports in general, and what they probably wanted was XC and that's it. Downhill was the redheaded stepchild forced on them. And the more they get to know how limited the enduro and DH audience is the more its gonna fall to the wayside. While they can likely justify investing in XC a lot more.
I mean supercross is very popular and you won't struggle to find fans of racing dirt bikes... And Monster owns that entire series. (Or do they? They own it and license it to Peacock or whatever?) Whatever, point is it easily finds a home in action sports energy drink niche and motorsports racing on NBC niche.
I don't quite know where DH falls. Without the energy drink angle. In terms of entertainment the format is terrible compared to SX/MX racing. There's no bar to bar action. The event takes AGES with very poor camera coverage. Oh shit... Is just a terribly long winded way of saying 4cross will save MTB racing? No... Probly not
But yeah the format is just HARD TO SELL. Full stop. 100s of riders. One at a time.You can't see the full run. They forbid most riders from wearing gopros during finals? Watching in person is a serious commitment to a day hike. To say it's hard to sell is an understatement. And the criminal shame is that it's such good racing/riding. I don't think people would even argue against that. But the logistics/format is brutal
That is what scares me the most about the new deal. Red Bull could justify expenses as part of their business/advertising/marketing everything all in one shot...
That is what scares me the most about the new deal. Red Bull could justify expenses as part of their business/advertising/marketing everything all in one shot because it totally made sense. Discovery already has little to do with cycling sports in general, and what they probably wanted was XC and that's it. Downhill was the redheaded stepchild forced on them. And the more they get to know how limited the enduro and DH audience is the more its gonna fall to the wayside. While they can likely justify investing in XC a lot more.
I mean supercross is very popular and you won't struggle to find fans of racing dirt bikes... And Monster owns that entire series. (Or do they? They own it and license it to Peacock or whatever?) Whatever, point is it easily finds a home in action sports energy drink niche and motorsports racing on NBC niche.
I don't quite know where DH falls. Without the energy drink angle. In terms of entertainment the format is terrible compared to SX/MX racing. There's no bar to bar action. The event takes AGES with very poor camera coverage. Oh shit... Is just a terribly long winded way of saying 4cross will save MTB racing? No... Probly not
But yeah the format is just HARD TO SELL. Full stop. 100s of riders. One at a time.You can't see the full run. They forbid most riders from wearing gopros during finals? Watching in person is a serious commitment to a day hike. To say it's hard to sell is an understatement. And the criminal shame is that it's such good racing/riding. I don't think people would even argue against that. But the logistics/format is brutal
Meh, your opinion only my friend. I love watching SX/MX. But all the action is happening all at once, so for TV purposes it's tough to cover it all. Whereas with DH all the action is in front of you, one run at a time. The format is long winded for sure. RBTV had the quali field cut to 60 elite men to help with this and only showed 30 racers on Screen and now WBD have cut it to 30 and still show 30. So for the last 5-8 years or whatever it's the same stuff. But it's good enough I think? At least as a fan I don't mind watching the 10 women and 20-15 of the men live.
Just to counter some of your points though, we had most of the top 5 women and top 10 men's full final runs in last years coverage. The coverage would be really long if each rider's full run was shown? Like what would it need, 4 minute gaps between each rider?
And I don't think GoPros are forbidden, you just need to request it for finals? Not sure who owns the footage though, GoPro or UCI-WDB? Still hard to sell though like you say.
going to sound like an old guy with no vision, but i just think that downhill mountain biking (or any competitive mountain biking) will always have...
going to sound like an old guy with no vision, but i just think that downhill mountain biking (or any competitive mountain biking) will always have a limited audience because of what it is. i prob feel that way b/c i've seen the audience size stay relatively similar over the last 25 years (i have no hard data on this, just personal observations from then till now).
DH is inherently niche because it's difficult to access (as a participant or a live spectator), expensive and risky. add in today's challenge of social media networks/phones dominating eyeballs and time compared to TV-style shows and that makes pulling new viewers in even more difficult.
i guess that's why i mentioned the cost of producing the tv product up above. i'm always really curious how much it costs to produce vs much revenue there actually is from advertisers or streaming fees. red bull seemed to be a dream producer/hosting provider from a business perspective. everything about rbtv broadcast could highlight their already-profitable product, they've been involved in action sports for decades and all indications were "they're not directly making money, but everyone there loves mountain biking." when a company comes in trying to directly monetize the broadcast product of a DH race, i don't see how it's possible. i'm also the guy that doesn't understand how the new gourmet donut store survives in a shop that rents for $6k/month...that's a lot of donuts to sell. LOL
i also don't think LCQ would ruin what we have now. it may actually be exciting for existing fans. i just get worried about rider safety with more race-pace runs.
(if this is a derail from 2025 talk, we can start a new thread, too. it's a fun discussion!)
bullshit. doesn‘t explain the popularity of ski jumping or biathlon in europe one bit. how accessible is ski jumping to a normal person? yet they fill huge stadiums each winter and the live viewing is watched by millions. they just got the tv format right, as did the biathlon crowd. maybe not popular in the us. but you guys have traktor pulling and lumberjack championships instead
going to sound like an old guy with no vision, but i just think that downhill mountain biking (or any competitive mountain biking) will always have...
going to sound like an old guy with no vision, but i just think that downhill mountain biking (or any competitive mountain biking) will always have a limited audience because of what it is. i prob feel that way b/c i've seen the audience size stay relatively similar over the last 25 years (i have no hard data on this, just personal observations from then till now).
DH is inherently niche because it's difficult to access (as a participant or a live spectator), expensive and risky. add in today's challenge of social media networks/phones dominating eyeballs and time compared to TV-style shows and that makes pulling new viewers in even more difficult.
i guess that's why i mentioned the cost of producing the tv product up above. i'm always really curious how much it costs to produce vs much revenue there actually is from advertisers or streaming fees. red bull seemed to be a dream producer/hosting provider from a business perspective. everything about rbtv broadcast could highlight their already-profitable product, they've been involved in action sports for decades and all indications were "they're not directly making money, but everyone there loves mountain biking." when a company comes in trying to directly monetize the broadcast product of a DH race, i don't see how it's possible. i'm also the guy that doesn't understand how the new gourmet donut store survives in a shop that rents for $6k/month...that's a lot of donuts to sell. LOL
i also don't think LCQ would ruin what we have now. it may actually be exciting for existing fans. i just get worried about rider safety with more race-pace runs.
(if this is a derail from 2025 talk, we can start a new thread, too. it's a fun discussion!)
I feel much the same way, thanks. It's a niche sport and I only know like maybe ten guys personally who follow DH closely.
The best...
I feel much the same way, thanks. It's a niche sport and I only know like maybe ten guys personally who follow DH closely.
The best WBD can do is quit alienating it's current audience. Go back to the old format, get Rob Warner back, and make it clear where to watch and how much it's going to set me back.
I think you need to take the rose coloured glasses off. The red bull days weren't as great as what you think. Most pro's got paid bugger all, the prize money was like 1k for a win, which is just a joke.
The viewers got a good product, but at the cost of the support entirely dependant upon bike companies advertising budget, which isn't exactly sustainable, and wasn't delivery for the majority of athletes competing, only the top 10 or so got a decent salary.
Now i'm definitely not saying that WBD will fix it, and make it better than Redbull. But this view that "lets go back to how it was" is misguided and harmful. It WAS broken before, we need to make it better regardless of who's running it.
@sethimus lol traktror pull and lumberjack champs! ski jumping and biathlon fill stadiums like you said. that's the difference. a stadium. just like supercross. it's a concentrated environment, and all the action can be seen from a single seat with beer and brats in hand. the broadcast is contained and "easy" to setup, not spread out over a mile and a half of trail through trees on a mountainside. DH isn't like that. i'd also wager that the DH audience is probably as big (bigger?) as ski jumping or biathalon globally. has anyone in ski jumping said "we're gonna make this the next F1?"
@SteveClimber i was only referring to red bull as a broadcast partner, not as the race promoter. the few things i've heard made it sound like the UCI was the roadblock to more success for riders/teams etc back then. anytime we had restrictions on editorial coverage time limits (raw), those rules came from the UCI. eventually (as far as i understand) people at red bull convinced them to let go of those restrictions.
fwiw, when i was a kid, i had this black gold truck puller toy with sled. maybe we need DH mini figure toys to help!
@sethimus lol traktror pull and lumberjack champs! ski jumping and biathlon fill stadiums like you said. that's the difference. a stadium. just like supercross. it's a...
@sethimus lol traktror pull and lumberjack champs! ski jumping and biathlon fill stadiums like you said. that's the difference. a stadium. just like supercross. it's a concentrated environment, and all the action can be seen from a single seat with beer and brats in hand. the broadcast is contained and "easy" to setup, not spread out over a mile and a half of trail through trees on a mountainside. DH isn't like that. i'd also wager that the DH audience is probably as big (bigger?) as ski jumping or biathalon globally. has anyone in ski jumping said "we're gonna make this the next F1?"
@SteveClimber i was only referring to red bull as a broadcast partner, not as the race promoter. the few things i've heard made it sound like the UCI was the roadblock to more success for riders/teams etc back then. anytime we had restrictions on editorial coverage time limits (raw), those rules came from the UCI. eventually (as far as i understand) people at red bull convinced them to let go of those restrictions.
fwiw, when i was a kid, i had this black gold truck puller toy with sled. maybe we need DH mini figure toys to help!
Oh absolutely I agree @sspomer, and for the record what you guys and everyone at Vital does for the sport is invaluable and I believe greatly appreciated by everyone far and wide.
My comment was more directed at @philip.vega.921who has a very common view of "go back to the old format", but it doesn't acknowledge the fact the old format is broken.
Redbull did a lot things well, but they also were very resistant to change and investment in the sport. At least WBD are trying something.
The privateer pits is a huge positive.
I genuinely think it's time to rip the bad aid off and accept a few facts, we need to make the sport financially viable for 30-50 riders (and support) FIRST, then try and expand it after that.
Now that will require, a more popular TV product, better brand advertising and bigger team budgets and outside advertising entering the sport. It will be necessary to make changes to achieve this.
@sethimus lol traktror pull and lumberjack champs! ski jumping and biathlon fill stadiums like you said. that's the difference. a stadium. just like supercross. it's a...
@sethimus lol traktror pull and lumberjack champs! ski jumping and biathlon fill stadiums like you said. that's the difference. a stadium. just like supercross. it's a concentrated environment, and all the action can be seen from a single seat with beer and brats in hand. the broadcast is contained and "easy" to setup, not spread out over a mile and a half of trail through trees on a mountainside. DH isn't like that. i'd also wager that the DH audience is probably as big (bigger?) as ski jumping or biathalon globally. has anyone in ski jumping said "we're gonna make this the next F1?"
@SteveClimber i was only referring to red bull as a broadcast partner, not as the race promoter. the few things i've heard made it sound like the UCI was the roadblock to more success for riders/teams etc back then. anytime we had restrictions on editorial coverage time limits (raw), those rules came from the UCI. eventually (as far as i understand) people at red bull convinced them to let go of those restrictions.
fwiw, when i was a kid, i had this black gold truck puller toy with sled. maybe we need DH mini figure toys to help!
@sspomer I think Biathlon is bigger than DH. It's huge regionally, but I could be wrong since it's limited to areas with snow. This site says Germany had 4.1 million viewers alone for the Pursuit World Championship. It's actually pretty fun to watch if it interests anybody. High drama, crazy crowds at some events.
@sethimus lol traktror pull and lumberjack champs! ski jumping and biathlon fill stadiums like you said. that's the difference. a stadium. just like supercross. it's a...
@sethimus lol traktror pull and lumberjack champs! ski jumping and biathlon fill stadiums like you said. that's the difference. a stadium. just like supercross. it's a concentrated environment, and all the action can be seen from a single seat with beer and brats in hand. the broadcast is contained and "easy" to setup, not spread out over a mile and a half of trail through trees on a mountainside. DH isn't like that. i'd also wager that the DH audience is probably as big (bigger?) as ski jumping or biathalon globally. has anyone in ski jumping said "we're gonna make this the next F1?"
@SteveClimber i was only referring to red bull as a broadcast partner, not as the race promoter. the few things i've heard made it sound like the UCI was the roadblock to more success for riders/teams etc back then. anytime we had restrictions on editorial coverage time limits (raw), those rules came from the UCI. eventually (as far as i understand) people at red bull convinced them to let go of those restrictions.
fwiw, when i was a kid, i had this black gold truck puller toy with sled. maybe we need DH mini figure toys to help!
Oh absolutely I agree @sspomer, and for the record what you guys and everyone at Vital does for the sport is invaluable and I believe...
Oh absolutely I agree @sspomer, and for the record what you guys and everyone at Vital does for the sport is invaluable and I believe greatly appreciated by everyone far and wide.
My comment was more directed at @philip.vega.921who has a very common view of "go back to the old format", but it doesn't acknowledge the fact the old format is broken.
Redbull did a lot things well, but they also were very resistant to change and investment in the sport. At least WBD are trying something.
The privateer pits is a huge positive.
I genuinely think it's time to rip the bad aid off and accept a few facts, we need to make the sport financially viable for 30-50 riders (and support) FIRST, then try and expand it after that.
Now that will require, a more popular TV product, better brand advertising and bigger team budgets and outside advertising entering the sport. It will be necessary to make changes to achieve this.
I would say the sport as it’s been has been financially viable for a lot more than 30-50 riders. I fail to see how the changes being made will either make the top guys pay more lucrative or better help older guys who may be past their prime results but still offer value to the sport (neko for example) or riders who take longer to develop (pierron, coulange, etc) get better paychecks and funding. In fact I think it will lead to the sport being one where only teen phenoms and guys with daddy’s checkbook can participate at the world level.
@sethimus lol traktror pull and lumberjack champs! ski jumping and biathlon fill stadiums like you said. that's the difference. a stadium. just like supercross. it's a...
@sethimus lol traktror pull and lumberjack champs! ski jumping and biathlon fill stadiums like you said. that's the difference. a stadium. just like supercross. it's a concentrated environment, and all the action can be seen from a single seat with beer and brats in hand. the broadcast is contained and "easy" to setup, not spread out over a mile and a half of trail through trees on a mountainside. DH isn't like that. i'd also wager that the DH audience is probably as big (bigger?) as ski jumping or biathalon globally. has anyone in ski jumping said "we're gonna make this the next F1?"
@SteveClimber i was only referring to red bull as a broadcast partner, not as the race promoter. the few things i've heard made it sound like the UCI was the roadblock to more success for riders/teams etc back then. anytime we had restrictions on editorial coverage time limits (raw), those rules came from the UCI. eventually (as far as i understand) people at red bull convinced them to let go of those restrictions.
fwiw, when i was a kid, i had this black gold truck puller toy with sled. maybe we need DH mini figure toys to help!
Oh absolutely I agree @sspomer, and for the record what you guys and everyone at Vital does for the sport is invaluable and I believe...
Oh absolutely I agree @sspomer, and for the record what you guys and everyone at Vital does for the sport is invaluable and I believe greatly appreciated by everyone far and wide.
My comment was more directed at @philip.vega.921who has a very common view of "go back to the old format", but it doesn't acknowledge the fact the old format is broken.
Redbull did a lot things well, but they also were very resistant to change and investment in the sport. At least WBD are trying something.
The privateer pits is a huge positive.
I genuinely think it's time to rip the bad aid off and accept a few facts, we need to make the sport financially viable for 30-50 riders (and support) FIRST, then try and expand it after that.
Now that will require, a more popular TV product, better brand advertising and bigger team budgets and outside advertising entering the sport. It will be necessary to make changes to achieve this.
By "format", I was referring to the practices, timed-training, qualies, and finals only and how they are broadcast. No comments on prize money or rider compensation.
There were no mentions made of Red Bull or how I feel about them. That wasn't the point. I still think the old race "format" (which predates both Redbull and Freecaster) worked better, but yes, there's always room for improvement. World Cup DH went away from the two run format years ago because of the added risk, well before streaming was invented. I wasn't a fan of that move then because I personally love getting to do two race runs, it's always suited me better.
My question was how does WBD move forward with a better broadcast format. I suggested falling back to the old format, which I see no harm in considering how much noise there is regarding the new format.
I'm all for getting to watch more of the race weekend, so if we can get a qualies/semis show on Saturday and finals on Sunday, then I'm happy as a pig in shit. Like many, I was pissed when there were no semis broadcast on Saturday. It felt like I missed out on a major part of the drama last weekend and did not get my moneys worth. Overall, it was a good show and a great final.
Not sure there is any correct answer, like spomer said, any change we will adapt to over the years.
I say the current top 10 are protected, they race their qualifier for seeding for the finals and points. Everyone else in qualifiers are racing for the points and finals run prior to the top ten. An outside the top 10 can still win qualies and get the points but would start 11th from the top (or 19th depending on how you look at it). Not too different than they do it now, but if they want the top riders in the show and on screen, this would protect them. Being ranked in the top ten shows they deserve it.
Not a fan of the LCQ but they could go to 35 or 40 riders and anyone outside the top 30 in qualies has to do another run to try and make the final show.
Coming from someone who has only started watching downhill the last couple years, I really only tune in for the top 10-15 guys. So maybe cutting the field down makes sense to bring in newer fans. I completely understand that doing so makes it much harder for companies to justify supporting you if you aren’t going to be in the tv broadcast, but sometimes the truth hurts. I think showing more of the top guys runs would be more entertaining to the average person. Maybe do so by having some sort of on board for the areas they can’t capture.
@sethimus lol traktror pull and lumberjack champs! ski jumping and biathlon fill stadiums like you said. that's the difference. a stadium. just like supercross. it's a...
@sethimus lol traktror pull and lumberjack champs! ski jumping and biathlon fill stadiums like you said. that's the difference. a stadium. just like supercross. it's a concentrated environment, and all the action can be seen from a single seat with beer and brats in hand. the broadcast is contained and "easy" to setup, not spread out over a mile and a half of trail through trees on a mountainside. DH isn't like that. i'd also wager that the DH audience is probably as big (bigger?) as ski jumping or biathalon globally. has anyone in ski jumping said "we're gonna make this the next F1?"
@SteveClimber i was only referring to red bull as a broadcast partner, not as the race promoter. the few things i've heard made it sound like the UCI was the roadblock to more success for riders/teams etc back then. anytime we had restrictions on editorial coverage time limits (raw), those rules came from the UCI. eventually (as far as i understand) people at red bull convinced them to let go of those restrictions.
fwiw, when i was a kid, i had this black gold truck puller toy with sled. maybe we need DH mini figure toys to help!
Oh absolutely I agree @sspomer, and for the record what you guys and everyone at Vital does for the sport is invaluable and I believe...
Oh absolutely I agree @sspomer, and for the record what you guys and everyone at Vital does for the sport is invaluable and I believe greatly appreciated by everyone far and wide.
My comment was more directed at @philip.vega.921who has a very common view of "go back to the old format", but it doesn't acknowledge the fact the old format is broken.
Redbull did a lot things well, but they also were very resistant to change and investment in the sport. At least WBD are trying something.
The privateer pits is a huge positive.
I genuinely think it's time to rip the bad aid off and accept a few facts, we need to make the sport financially viable for 30-50 riders (and support) FIRST, then try and expand it after that.
Now that will require, a more popular TV product, better brand advertising and bigger team budgets and outside advertising entering the sport. It will be necessary to make changes to achieve this.
I would say the sport as it’s been has been financially viable for a lot more than 30-50 riders. I fail to see how the changes...
I would say the sport as it’s been has been financially viable for a lot more than 30-50 riders. I fail to see how the changes being made will either make the top guys pay more lucrative or better help older guys who may be past their prime results but still offer value to the sport (neko for example) or riders who take longer to develop (pierron, coulange, etc) get better paychecks and funding. In fact I think it will lead to the sport being one where only teen phenoms and guys with daddy’s checkbook can participate at the world level.
But the fact is it isn't financially viable. From Pinkbike's state of the sport survey(2024), which to my knowledge is the best data set we have for athlete pay, only 40 reported an income of +50k USD (21 reported under 5k USD) and only 4 athletes total said renumeration was appropriate and that was from 104 respondents.
2023 had 49 respondents of an income of 50k+, and the biggest caveat for this, is that it includes XC athletes, who the top guys we know are in that cohort, so remove them and the DH figures are even WORSE.
I don't know which riders or mechanics you talk to, but the sport is absolutely not a viable profession, despite the fact we want and encourage them to be professional, and then they aren't renumerated for the risk and dedication involved.
I do think some Saturday broadcast is a no-brainer. The camera crew and everyone are booked for the weekend already, the course is live for quali and semi's, why not stream it?
My hope is somehow we get a Drive to Survive style Netlflix/Streaming service production to really elevate the sport.
I agree with Spomer that DH is not moto or F1, but I will compare DH and moto here for a minute. I think one big thing that gets missed with the moto comparison is that the AMA series (SX and pro nationals are being combined into one thing for the purpose of the thought exercise) is actually a domestic series and not the global FIM premier series (MXGP). However, the AMA series is functionally the premier series in the world from the perspective of racers and fans. This is probably due to a number of reasons that aren’t transferable to DH, but I wonder if the DH World Cups becoming more euro centric year-over-year for a while now will leave a void for a North American series that could eventually dominate the DH race scene and become the functional premier series. Monster becoming involved this year is promising, but I wonder if there’s enough of a market to support it? Maybe we’ll hit the jackpot twice and a second coming of NORBA will happen? At the end of the day, I don’t really care but it’s fun to think about.
Biathlon numbers are a bit cheeky, showing viewership numbers from broadcasts not behind a paywall. The past couple years paywall has turned viewership numbers of Winter sports to shit here in Norway, including Biathlon. Split screen commercials during long boring races isnt the problem. Split screen commercials in the heat of the action is our new normal. Paywall increasing viewership? would love to hear any success stories.
(All well documented by our media, chose not to send links)
@sethimus lol traktror pull and lumberjack champs! ski jumping and biathlon fill stadiums like you said. that's the difference. a stadium. just like supercross. it's a...
@sethimus lol traktror pull and lumberjack champs! ski jumping and biathlon fill stadiums like you said. that's the difference. a stadium. just like supercross. it's a concentrated environment, and all the action can be seen from a single seat with beer and brats in hand. the broadcast is contained and "easy" to setup, not spread out over a mile and a half of trail through trees on a mountainside. DH isn't like that. i'd also wager that the DH audience is probably as big (bigger?) as ski jumping or biathalon globally. has anyone in ski jumping said "we're gonna make this the next F1?"
@SteveClimber i was only referring to red bull as a broadcast partner, not as the race promoter. the few things i've heard made it sound like the UCI was the roadblock to more success for riders/teams etc back then. anytime we had restrictions on editorial coverage time limits (raw), those rules came from the UCI. eventually (as far as i understand) people at red bull convinced them to let go of those restrictions.
fwiw, when i was a kid, i had this black gold truck puller toy with sled. maybe we need DH mini figure toys to help!
@sspomer I think Biathlon is bigger than DH. It's huge regionally, but I could be wrong since it's limited to areas with snow. This site says...
@sspomer I think Biathlon is bigger than DH. It's huge regionally, but I could be wrong since it's limited to areas with snow. This site says Germany had 4.1 million viewers alone for the Pursuit World Championship. It's actually pretty fun to watch if it interests anybody. High drama, crazy crowds at some events.
I don't know why but I love watching biathelon. If I find it on I'm watching. Olympics I'm watching. There is something weirdly exciting about it. Regular cross county skiing nope not watching it. I guess the shooting part and how it can change things so drastically.
Biathlon not joining skiings version of the UCI, is touted as key to their success, flexibity to make changes. Investing in a great TV production and sharing profits to smaller teams/countries. You could argue getting a big check from Discovery and only charging Norwegians is arguably growing the sport with profit sharing. UCI (FIS)of skiing is trying to copy this model right now, with the big ski nations threatening to take their ball and run away.
Bloated disinterested federations taking short term profits to keep afloat is a real threat. Downhill and Biathlon are both rad, hope they stay around and reach max potential, what that really is I dont know.
Rumor for 2025 is 20 elite men in on qualifying and then a last chance qualifier for 10 more for a total of 30...
worst. idea. ever. hope it's not true. just more risk for some riders. DH is not moto, it's not F1, they're not racing against competitors on the same track at the same time. if 20 finalists is "the best tv show" for the numbers to make sense, then just leave it at that. we'll all be upset for a year or two about how it's not like the old days, lick our wounds and riders will either try to compete for top 20 or regional/national series will become more populated.
i can't even imagine the cost to put on a DH race and have it televised like they do. regardless, race format or "storytelling" isn't going to make our niche sport something that an extra 10k or 100k random viewers are going to magically start following and watching. most mountain bikers don't even follow the series. an LCQ won't change that.
Don't think that's the intention, the top 20 is filled in qualies. Anyone with a bad run, flat, etc in qualies has another go at getting into the last 10 places in finals via LCQ. I think that sounds way better than we currently have (with no world champ, Laurie etc in finals this weekend). What we had before with a 60 rider final was better, dgmw, but if they're set on only broadcasting 30 riders then I think an LCQ will work better than the current shit show we have, where the world champ isn't protected, and has to risk 2 runs of flats/crashes etc, just to make it to the final every weekend.
My prediction for 2025 is UCI intensifying their efforts to shut privateers out.
yeah, sorry, i didn't mean to imply they only wanted 20 riders in finals. if 30 is a good show, then so be it. i think 30 is a good show for 90% of audience, even though i'd prefer to watch top 50 or 60.
i personally loved that some of the big guns didn't make it through this weekend. it keeps the whole season so much more unpredictable. LCQ wouldn't end this phenomenon, however, as only 10 more would get in, but just seems like more complications for something that isn't really that complicated and puts half the qualifiers at risk an extra time.
From your perspective, respectfully Spomer, what will it take to attract the next 10k to 100k DH race fans? Changing the well established format, that has seemingly proven successful over the years, doesn't seem to be a benefit to the racers or the current fan base. How is it going to attract new viewers when it seems to be upsetting everyone else?
going to sound like an old guy with no vision, but i just think that downhill mountain biking (or any competitive mountain biking) will always have a limited audience because of what it is. i prob feel that way b/c i've seen the audience size stay relatively similar over the last 25 years (i have no hard data on this, just personal observations from then till now).
DH is inherently niche because it's difficult to access (as a participant or a live spectator), expensive and risky. add in today's challenge of social media networks/phones dominating eyeballs and time compared to TV-style shows and that makes pulling new viewers in even more difficult.
i guess that's why i mentioned the cost of producing the tv product up above. i'm always really curious how much it costs to produce vs much revenue there actually is from advertisers or streaming fees. red bull seemed to be a dream producer/hosting provider from a business perspective. everything about rbtv broadcast could highlight their already-profitable product, they've been involved in action sports for decades and all indications were "they're not directly making money, but everyone there loves mountain biking." when a company comes in trying to directly monetize the broadcast product of a DH race, i don't see how it's possible. i'm also the guy that doesn't understand how the new gourmet donut store survives in a shop that rents for $6k/month...that's a lot of donuts to sell. LOL
i also don't think LCQ would ruin what we have now. it may actually be exciting for existing fans. i just get worried about rider safety with more race-pace runs.
(if this is a derail from 2025 talk, we can start a new thread, too. it's a fun discussion!)
This rumor is from the latest making up the number podcast...Both Neko and Martin Whitely talked about it separately.
Qualify 60. Do a “heat race” to determine 30 for finals. Give no points for qualifying and minimal points for the heat race. Make finals the vast majority of points earned like it used to be
None of the number tinkering makes any sense when it's in service of a goal that doesn't make any sense. You can't organize a sport to somehow skip right to the highlights reel and save the trouble and expense of doing everything else. (this shit is genius!)
If you make the final smaller, that makes the action in the semis/heats more important. If you make the semis smaller or eliminate them, that makes qualies/quarters more important.
If they want to go to 20 absolutely ZERO protected riders. Make a in semi your fucked. Have a mechanical in semi your fucked.
*you're
Per Martin Whitely there will be no protected riders next season (although he'd like to see a "mechanical protection" for the top 10 for stuff like broken chains).
Talk of 'changes for next year' likely meaning that Wyn won't make Ft Bill next year so there must be some proposed changes floating about: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6j3_qPtfry/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link…
I feel much the same way, thanks. It's a niche sport and I only know like maybe ten guys personally who follow DH closely.
The best WBD can do is quit alienating it's current audience. Go back to the old format, get Rob Warner back, and make it clear where to watch and how much it's going to set me back.
That is what scares me the most about the new deal. Red Bull could justify expenses as part of their business/advertising/marketing everything all in one shot because it totally made sense. Discovery already has little to do with cycling sports in general, and what they probably wanted was XC and that's it. Downhill was the redheaded stepchild forced on them. And the more they get to know how limited the enduro and DH audience is the more its gonna fall to the wayside. While they can likely justify investing in XC a lot more.
I mean supercross is very popular and you won't struggle to find fans of racing dirt bikes... And Monster owns that entire series. (Or do they? They own it and license it to Peacock or whatever?) Whatever, point is it easily finds a home in action sports energy drink niche and motorsports racing on NBC niche.
I don't quite know where DH falls. Without the energy drink angle. In terms of entertainment the format is terrible compared to SX/MX racing. There's no bar to bar action. The event takes AGES with very poor camera coverage. Oh shit... Is just a terribly long winded way of saying 4cross will save MTB racing? No... Probly not
But yeah the format is just HARD TO SELL. Full stop. 100s of riders. One at a time.You can't see the full run. They forbid most riders from wearing gopros during finals? Watching in person is a serious commitment to a day hike. To say it's hard to sell is an understatement. And the criminal shame is that it's such good racing/riding. I don't think people would even argue against that. But the logistics/format is brutal
Meh, your opinion only my friend. I love watching SX/MX. But all the action is happening all at once, so for TV purposes it's tough to cover it all. Whereas with DH all the action is in front of you, one run at a time. The format is long winded for sure. RBTV had the quali field cut to 60 elite men to help with this and only showed 30 racers on Screen and now WBD have cut it to 30 and still show 30. So for the last 5-8 years or whatever it's the same stuff. But it's good enough I think? At least as a fan I don't mind watching the 10 women and 20-15 of the men live.
Just to counter some of your points though, we had most of the top 5 women and top 10 men's full final runs in last years coverage. The coverage would be really long if each rider's full run was shown? Like what would it need, 4 minute gaps between each rider?
And I don't think GoPros are forbidden, you just need to request it for finals? Not sure who owns the footage though, GoPro or UCI-WDB? Still hard to sell though like you say.
bullshit. doesn‘t explain the popularity of ski jumping or biathlon in europe one bit. how accessible is ski jumping to a normal person? yet they fill huge stadiums each winter and the live viewing is watched by millions. they just got the tv format right, as did the biathlon crowd. maybe not popular in the us. but you guys have traktor pulling and lumberjack championships instead
I think you need to take the rose coloured glasses off. The red bull days weren't as great as what you think. Most pro's got paid bugger all, the prize money was like 1k for a win, which is just a joke.
The viewers got a good product, but at the cost of the support entirely dependant upon bike companies advertising budget, which isn't exactly sustainable, and wasn't delivery for the majority of athletes competing, only the top 10 or so got a decent salary.
Now i'm definitely not saying that WBD will fix it, and make it better than Redbull. But this view that "lets go back to how it was" is misguided and harmful. It WAS broken before, we need to make it better regardless of who's running it.
@sethimus lol traktror pull and lumberjack champs! ski jumping and biathlon fill stadiums like you said. that's the difference. a stadium. just like supercross. it's a concentrated environment, and all the action can be seen from a single seat with beer and brats in hand. the broadcast is contained and "easy" to setup, not spread out over a mile and a half of trail through trees on a mountainside. DH isn't like that. i'd also wager that the DH audience is probably as big (bigger?) as ski jumping or biathalon globally. has anyone in ski jumping said "we're gonna make this the next F1?"
@SteveClimber i was only referring to red bull as a broadcast partner, not as the race promoter. the few things i've heard made it sound like the UCI was the roadblock to more success for riders/teams etc back then. anytime we had restrictions on editorial coverage time limits (raw), those rules came from the UCI. eventually (as far as i understand) people at red bull convinced them to let go of those restrictions.
fwiw, when i was a kid, i had this black gold truck puller toy with sled. maybe we need DH mini figure toys to help!
Oh absolutely I agree @sspomer, and for the record what you guys and everyone at Vital does for the sport is invaluable and I believe greatly appreciated by everyone far and wide.
My comment was more directed at @philip.vega.921 who has a very common view of "go back to the old format", but it doesn't acknowledge the fact the old format is broken.
Redbull did a lot things well, but they also were very resistant to change and investment in the sport. At least WBD are trying something.
The privateer pits is a huge positive.
I genuinely think it's time to rip the bad aid off and accept a few facts, we need to make the sport financially viable for 30-50 riders (and support) FIRST, then try and expand it after that.
Now that will require, a more popular TV product, better brand advertising and bigger team budgets and outside advertising entering the sport. It will be necessary to make changes to achieve this.
@sspomer I think Biathlon is bigger than DH. It's huge regionally, but I could be wrong since it's limited to areas with snow. This site says Germany had 4.1 million viewers alone for the Pursuit World Championship. It's actually pretty fun to watch if it interests anybody. High drama, crazy crowds at some events.
https://www.ebu.ch/news/2024/02/ebu-members-deliver-huge-audiences-for-the-bmw-ibu-world-championships-biathlon-2024
I had a hard time finding UCI DH World Championship numbers. But UCI said the UK had 963,000 viewers for it.
https://www.uci.org/pressrelease/spectacular-tv-and-digital-audiences-for-2023-uci-cycling-world/3KSV2mdsYiRRoPBupy1tDT
I would say the sport as it’s been has been financially viable for a lot more than 30-50 riders. I fail to see how the changes being made will either make the top guys pay more lucrative or better help older guys who may be past their prime results but still offer value to the sport (neko for example) or riders who take longer to develop (pierron, coulange, etc) get better paychecks and funding. In fact I think it will lead to the sport being one where only teen phenoms and guys with daddy’s checkbook can participate at the world level.
By "format", I was referring to the practices, timed-training, qualies, and finals only and how they are broadcast. No comments on prize money or rider compensation.
There were no mentions made of Red Bull or how I feel about them. That wasn't the point. I still think the old race "format" (which predates both Redbull and Freecaster) worked better, but yes, there's always room for improvement. World Cup DH went away from the two run format years ago because of the added risk, well before streaming was invented. I wasn't a fan of that move then because I personally love getting to do two race runs, it's always suited me better.
My question was how does WBD move forward with a better broadcast format. I suggested falling back to the old format, which I see no harm in considering how much noise there is regarding the new format.
I'm all for getting to watch more of the race weekend, so if we can get a qualies/semis show on Saturday and finals on Sunday, then I'm happy as a pig in shit. Like many, I was pissed when there were no semis broadcast on Saturday. It felt like I missed out on a major part of the drama last weekend and did not get my moneys worth. Overall, it was a good show and a great final.
Not sure there is any correct answer, like spomer said, any change we will adapt to over the years.
I say the current top 10 are protected, they race their qualifier for seeding for the finals and points. Everyone else in qualifiers are racing for the points and finals run prior to the top ten. An outside the top 10 can still win qualies and get the points but would start 11th from the top (or 19th depending on how you look at it). Not too different than they do it now, but if they want the top riders in the show and on screen, this would protect them. Being ranked in the top ten shows they deserve it.
Not a fan of the LCQ but they could go to 35 or 40 riders and anyone outside the top 30 in qualies has to do another run to try and make the final show.
Coming from someone who has only started watching downhill the last couple years, I really only tune in for the top 10-15 guys. So maybe cutting the field down makes sense to bring in newer fans. I completely understand that doing so makes it much harder for companies to justify supporting you if you aren’t going to be in the tv broadcast, but sometimes the truth hurts. I think showing more of the top guys runs would be more entertaining to the average person. Maybe do so by having some sort of on board for the areas they can’t capture.
But the fact is it isn't financially viable. From Pinkbike's state of the sport survey(2024), which to my knowledge is the best data set we have for athlete pay, only 40 reported an income of +50k USD (21 reported under 5k USD) and only 4 athletes total said renumeration was appropriate and that was from 104 respondents.
2023 had 49 respondents of an income of 50k+, and the biggest caveat for this, is that it includes XC athletes, who the top guys we know are in that cohort, so remove them and the DH figures are even WORSE.
I don't know which riders or mechanics you talk to, but the sport is absolutely not a viable profession, despite the fact we want and encourage them to be professional, and then they aren't renumerated for the risk and dedication involved.
I do think some Saturday broadcast is a no-brainer. The camera crew and everyone are booked for the weekend already, the course is live for quali and semi's, why not stream it?
My hope is somehow we get a Drive to Survive style Netlflix/Streaming service production to really elevate the sport.
I agree with Spomer that DH is not moto or F1, but I will compare DH and moto here for a minute. I think one big thing that gets missed with the moto comparison is that the AMA series (SX and pro nationals are being combined into one thing for the purpose of the thought exercise) is actually a domestic series and not the global FIM premier series (MXGP). However, the AMA series is functionally the premier series in the world from the perspective of racers and fans. This is probably due to a number of reasons that aren’t transferable to DH, but I wonder if the DH World Cups becoming more euro centric year-over-year for a while now will leave a void for a North American series that could eventually dominate the DH race scene and become the functional premier series. Monster becoming involved this year is promising, but I wonder if there’s enough of a market to support it? Maybe we’ll hit the jackpot twice and a second coming of NORBA will happen? At the end of the day, I don’t really care but it’s fun to think about.
Biathlon numbers are a bit cheeky, showing viewership numbers from broadcasts not behind a paywall. The past couple years paywall has turned viewership numbers of Winter sports to shit here in Norway, including Biathlon. Split screen commercials during long boring races isnt the problem. Split screen commercials in the heat of the action is our new normal. Paywall increasing viewership? would love to hear any success stories.
(All well documented by our media, chose not to send links)
I don't know why but I love watching biathelon. If I find it on I'm watching. Olympics I'm watching. There is something weirdly exciting about it. Regular cross county skiing nope not watching it. I guess the shooting part and how it can change things so drastically.
Biathlon not joining skiings version of the UCI, is touted as key to their success, flexibity to make changes. Investing in a great TV production and sharing profits to smaller teams/countries. You could argue getting a big check from Discovery and only charging Norwegians is arguably growing the sport with profit sharing. UCI (FIS)of skiing is trying to copy this model right now, with the big ski nations threatening to take their ball and run away.
Bloated disinterested federations taking short term profits to keep afloat is a real threat. Downhill and Biathlon are both rad, hope they stay around and reach max potential, what that really is I dont know.
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