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8/6/2009
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Keene, NH
US
Edited Date/Time
4/7/2018 3:28am
Sam Hill continues to prove that flat pedals win medals. He's been doing this forever, and as someone who has never gone to clips, I always pay attention to what he's up to...now more than ever, as he's pedaling more than ever.
Historically, Hill has always had a ridiculous set up regarding his pin height. So much so, that even after a lot of searching, I never quite found the set/grub screws that would do the job...Jacee is a wizard of a mechanic and I'm sure has some inside knowledge which helped.
Vital did a Flat Pedal Face Off, which garnered a lot of comments. But I'm curious about the Forum's hive mind, what are your thoughts?
Back in the day, the long-pin option was common, with Burgtec offering a long-pin kit - which they discontinued after their pedal revision slimmed the body and the overall height of the pins was increased relative to the pedal; CrankBros had some for the 50/50s; Azonic, Straightline...there were a host of other brands too.
In the modern age of relatively thin(ner) pedals, is there a sweet spot for pin height on flats? Do you like some float, or to be locked in? It's a daily topic on group rides with the crew, so I thought I'd pitch the question(s) on here! (I know shoe combo is a big factor too).
On my own personal level, I'm stoked because DMR just unveiled their King Pins. I've been running the Vaults for a while now. There are a host of damn good pedals, with the likes of Burgtec, Nukeproof, HT, and Deity all have pretty long pins stock too.
For my personal preference a good pedal consists of large enough platform, nice concave shape and a few (7-8) replaceable, medium height alloy pins. If I was a real gnarly rider I'd probably prefer something more meaty, but for a rider like me this setup fits well.
Wearing my trusty old size 13 2012 5.10 Impacts this set up provides nearly no movement on DMR Vaults or the old E13 pedals. I hate having my feet move in any direction and that's why I don't like clipless.
For XC riding I use the same shoes but standard pins in DMR vaults, the long ones catch on rocks and rip out too often but I don't like being able to wiggle my foot around, maybe a smaller shoe would help with this.
Extra long pins are a game changer for anyone wanting to race DH on flat pedals with Impacts or comparable shoes. The relief of not having to worry about your feet no matter how rough the trail is worth a few seconds on a proper DH track.
I have tried some of his setups and I’ve tried long pins because I like feeling locked to the pedals but for me and my usual Five Ten Freeriders it was too much. I actually found I had better ‘feel’ with mid sized pins. I didn’t really think I had more grip, it was the same but I didn’t feel like enough of my foot was contacting the pedal and just didn’t feel properly connected to the bike.
For me I’d sooner look at the pedal shape for more grip than just use longer pins.
DMR vaults with the brendog pins pretty good
Tried TMACs with so long pins MEH
Honestly I found that I don't really like set screws for pins
Tried the ONEUP pedal probably going to be my replacement for when my E13 blow out.
pedal thickness also plays a role as i have much better grip and control regardless of pins on the current crop of 11-12mm thickness pedals than any of the old school 17mm+ pedals that wanted to roll so easily.
I have a love/hate relationship with those pedals, performance and grip wise it doesnt get any better but I dont like proprietary anything(the pins can be hit or miss for replacements and are unnecessarily expensive) and the complicated axle and tension system can be a pain in the ass. my next pedals will hopefully offer similar feel with a more un-complicated axle and standard grub screws.
The only 2 pedals ive ever had that truly felt amazing were the original Point1 Podiums with "custom" hardware store extra long pins and the current stock deity t-macs. loved both for different reasons. The point 1s feel awesome underfoot, they truly understood the concave profile that my foot prefers and although they are a little small for my size 12 foot, they are the perfect pedal to be comfortable in any position. I went to a hardware store and got extra long pins which felt amazing but tended to break alot so i got really good at getting twisted pins out. They also did a couple things that most other pedals dont seem to do which is that they left the center completely pin free so your foot kind of "Settles" into the pedal. Another bonus was that because of the overall low profile, your center of gravity is lowered by a millimeter or two, not the biggest difference i realize but talk to me after you swap from flat pedals to shimano dx spds and suddenly the bike doesn't corner the same way
The deity t-macs i love because they are straight stock and they feel perfect. Perfect size, perfect concave profile, no need for extra long pins to get the security that i want. Only downside is the height and the blocky profile. But from a pure "feel" sense, no pedal feels better than the t-macs. I havent truly destroyed myself getting the pedal caught on something but i have hit more stuff than i normally do. The height also means that when i swap back to my point1's - i notice that im slightly lower than with the t-macs and the bike "feels" slightly better in the corners. Maybe thats nostalgia for the trusty point1s because it goes away after a ride and the bike still corners amazingly regardless... Perks of having an evil insurgent in x-low with a push shock i guess. I would still ride OG point 1s if i could still get replacement parts, i stocked up on replacement kits but im on the last set so i got the next best pedal to replace them.
I'd like to also point out that what works for me definitely wont always work for someone else. But at the same time, here are a few 1 sentence-ish pedal reviews taking all the factors mentioned above into account (pin height, pin layout, body size, body height)
Point 1 Podium 2's, now Gamut pedals --> Supposed to be more reliable? but really just ruined the pin layout and the body size for the stupid extra angled edge. The comfortable spot to stand on them isnt in line with the pedal axle so they feel super funky and really small.
Canfield --> LOL NO
Race Face Atlas --> actually really good, better than i expected but t-macs still feel a little better underfoot, need slightly longer pins
Deity bladerunners --> need longer pins but feel really good, have to remove all the pins in the center to maximize the concave profile
Crankbrothers 5050 --> possibly the worst pedals ever made - heavy, horrible pins, horrible size, too tall. Horrible. Still dont fully understand how sam hill won with these. (even with custom extra long pins) He's obviously a wizard.
Crankbrothers Stamp large --> feel ok, need longer pins and they're crankbrothers so you know they'll break without warning really early on for something silly like "i pedaled and the axle twisted" or exactly what happened to me when i briefly rode mallets "popped the bike on the lip of a jump and the axle snapped in the air" Mallets do feel awesome height wise though.
I could rant on the topic of pedals for a long time but i think that's enough for now. Cheers to those who read this far.
the other modification that i would do is try to source some different pins so i could run longer pins if i needed to. I dont like rear loading pin systems if you have to run longer pins to make the right amount of concavity because its a fairly big pain to remove bent pins through the rear. Luckily you can just top load the pins with some locktite if they use a standard size so i would try to do that.
Fearons 2 different pedal set ups, the 2nd on had 7.5mm pins but the look cut or maybe there just smashed up a bit.
Pretty sure Sam's setup is the standard pins with the spacer washers removed to make them full height.
I've left the spacer washers in and finding there is plenty of grip with Five 10 impacts.
on top of that its the same way Sam himself runs his pedals!
Is there a particular pedal design or pin length that any of you favor as mid-foot riders?
Have always experimented with different setups over the last 10 - 15 years and my personal rule of thumb are;
Slight concave to the pedal - something that had been lost a little with the new wave of skinny pedals
Smoother concave line - some eg the HT black pictured can really feel the ridges of the front and back of the pedal
Can only be as skinny as the axle - again the change in the smoothness of the concave can feel after time
Pins need to screw in from the bottom - with exception of central pins. They will never survive over time with strikes
Pins with a thread - seem to somehow offer a better connection. I could be imagining it but would seem. I have modified pins with different shapes and spikes over the years with little success.
Pin length good at 5mm for everyday use - If i was trying to win WC or Enduro I could understand going longer but..
Platform needs to be suitable for foot size - being able to have at least 85% of your foot on top of pedal (not shoe)
Old school big chunky cheap pedals were great. then the industry went for small an light. A little to far in my opinion.
DMR V12 were great for so long. Ultra flat pedals just didn't seem quite right. NS made a nice pedal but platform was a little small. Crankbrothers offering different sizes was a great move but the Sam Hills are right on. A little chunkier than the rest but this is what save fatigue over longer rides and sessions again IMO. There is a little more platform in front of the axle than behind which I found strange to look at but isn't noticeable when riding and I guess makes sense when pointing downhill.
I threw a spare set of NS pedals on a new DH bike I had laying around yesterday for its first runs and I'm sure suspension setup may be at fault a little but I got blood on the calf hehe.
Wait for another set of Nukeproofs to turn up now.
I run some SuperStar Nano-X too, with long pins (and those ARE long ! from memory about 8mm above the surface of the pedal, and so thin my shins are afraid just looking at them), and I have the feeling there is a little less grip than on the TMacs (with a lot more pins, but shorter and fatter...).
I just ordered some plastic OneUp too, didn't tried yet. And I run the most standard plastic pedals you can find on many, many brand (Deity Compound among others) on my trials and street/trials. Good grip in general, maybe a little lack of it on some heavy springiness moves but at least I can eject my foot from the pedals easily.
SO, I think more than a sweet spot for pedal pin height, maybe there is some magic formula between the pin height, their number, and the concavity of the pedal.
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