And I should add that I'm 6'7"/2M so my angle on life is a bit different than most. I love the Deity dirt jump bars for...
And I should add that I'm 6'7"/2M so my angle on life is a bit different than most. I love the Deity dirt jump bars for their high-rise, but again being tall I match it to a longer 65mm Deity stem to get more hight with the proper roll and no shorter reach. And my XR has a crazy block of a bar riser and Pro Tapers.
Can you recommend any suitable DJ frames? I am also a giraffe in height and find it hard to find something comfortable.
And I should add that I'm 6'7"/2M so my angle on life is a bit different than most. I love the Deity dirt jump bars for...
And I should add that I'm 6'7"/2M so my angle on life is a bit different than most. I love the Deity dirt jump bars for their high-rise, but again being tall I match it to a longer 65mm Deity stem to get more hight with the proper roll and no shorter reach. And my XR has a crazy block of a bar riser and Pro Tapers.
Can you recommend any suitable DJ frames? I am also a giraffe in height and find it hard to find something comfortable.
I built my own I'll DM you the specs and a link to pictures. But I say support your local small frame maker. Just if it's a road builder make sure they use heavier tubes.
Bar height is something that's worth playing around with, and comes down to personal preference. It's a balance between being able to weight the front wheel...
Bar height is something that's worth playing around with, and comes down to personal preference. It's a balance between being able to weight the front wheel enough in corners but being upright enough that you can relax in a neutral position with centered weight on the bike, without feeling like you're being pulled forward. As bikes are getting longer, higher rise bars make more and more sense to avoid being pulled forward.
I don't know much about moto. Is there a need to shift weight forward to get the front wheel to bite in corners? Or is such body english futile relative to the weight and power of the bike?
You definitely shift weight forward in corners, but keep in mind that the seat of an MX motorcycle goes all the way to the gas cap. We have the bars almost in our lap when cornering. It would be the equivalent of sitting on the top tube.
We definitely need to do this in order to accelerate properly, or the power would make us wheelie uncontrollably.
Another obvious observation is that a lot of the pros are in their 20s, and those that aren't have spent their adulthood riding bikes and keeping fit and flexible. I'm sure their comfortable range of bar height is much wider than many of us here who are a bit older and less limber.
I have been messing with bar height and width lately. I moved my bar height by about 50 mm in small increments and bar width from 740 to 800.
So far, at the top height there was a lot of issues with front end traction in situations where you wouldn't expect it. Front end drifted a lot when just cruising/not riding aggressively. In steep/rough/fast riding it felt OK, but again some weird traction issues and there were several times when I had to pull the front tire back in line by yanking on the inside grip. Felt controlable, but definitely some big "WHOA" moments.
At the bottom position it feels like I am driving my front wheel into every rock and gap. I ride long wheelbase/slack bikes so I never felt like I was going over the bars, but it was not comfortable, fast or fun. Just too much pressure on my hands.
As to why this is different from moto? On a dirt bike the majority of the mass is in the machine itself. A 190 lb rider on a 250 lb bike means that the machine is the primary force. On an MTB, a 190 lb rider on a 35 lb bike is a completely different dynamic. Body position and movement has a much larger effect on fore/aft bias, etc.
@Allen_Gleckner Thanks for asking. I'm running 10mm of spacers, a 50mm stem, and a 40mm rise handlebar rolled pretty far forward so it has less backsweep and more upsweep, but I'm also running a 180mm travel RS Zeb. That's important because the Zeb is a full 25mm taller than the 160mm 36 that came on the bike, so I've started running fewer stem spacers since switching to the longer fork. The headtube on my XL Megatower is 130mm long, and of course, there's a tall 29" front wheel. All that adds up to my bar height being what I would categorize as "really tall."
I tested higher and lower bar positions before settling on my current setup, and Salespunk did a great job of describing the same sensations I felt whenever I moved outside my current bar height happy place. If I go any taller, my hands feel high and disconnected from the front wheel. Things are happening down there, but it's often a surprise when they happen. That means I have to overcompensate and lean on the handlebar deliberately to weight the front wheel, and that means I'm doing a lot of extra work and wearing out my hands and arms. It also means I'm not riding neutral and instinctively, but instead I have to make a lot of conscious choices about how to weight the front wheel. This is inherently slow and awkward feeling.
If I go lower than that with my bars, I have a bunch of weight shifted onto my hands and I feel hunched over on the bike. It rides great on jump trails, smooth trails, and flat bits, but anywhere rough or fast and it's horrifying. I think a lot of "suspension problems" people describe come from poor bike fit. If you look at the symptoms Salespunk and I described, they're all suspension and traction related ("feels rough" "driving the front wheel into holes," etc), but the problem is actually bar height. So when people complain about suspension problems, I often wonder "is your fork too harsh, or are your bars too low?" I think a lot of people have a "fix the suspension first" attitude that leads them to ride overly plush forks, bars that are too low, and ultimately results in them riding overly slow.
First, MX bikes have very low bars in relation to the pegs and I always ran tall and forward bars on my MX bikes. On a stock MX bike, when I stand, it feels like I'm holding on to my kneecaps.
Clearly lots of people are experiencing similar stack height issues as the OP because every MTB I see has a huge stack of spacers under the bars. Sometimes it's flat comical looking.
I've always ran the tallest bars I liked (35mm currently) on my MTBs with as few spacers under the stem as possible for a longer Reach & less flex in the steerer.
Actively weighting my front tire is something that must be done on my current bike (L- Foxy 29) as a result of a long front center but a short back end reducing front wheel traction otherwise. It actually becomes completely intuitive and a fast way to maneuver, but you really have to force yourself in the beginning and also trust a lot. Don't think this is ideal which is a major motivation in me ordering a new frame. But having a low front end really is required to make this happen.
Right now I have a '21 Evo frame on order and the primary reasons that I jumped to the S5 from the S4 (as I sort of straddled the in-between space at only 5'11") was that I wanted the taller Stack as well as the 448mm CS length that doesn't start until the S5. I'm just using reason to determine all of this as due to Covid, I haven't even touched an actual Evo. I do have oddly long legs and run my peddle to seat distance at exactly 36" so it sounds like this is a contributing factor to my preference for taller/ longer bikes.
In short, I think the OP is really on to something and that MTBs might really need taller front ends.
Think I'm going to need to work on those nose wheelie turns however as these bikes are getting awfully long.
Against better judgment (and drumming up a lot of old stuff) here is my full reply to the topic at hand...
The answer is "it depends".
Your bar height is going to be determined by a ton of factors (as others have already stated).
*Where you ride
*The type of bike you are riding
*The reach & rear end length of the bike you are riding
*Your own proportions
*Your own style
Ultimately, the best way to determine this would be to put sensors on our bikes to see how we are weighting the bike when riding. Couple this with perceived fatigue and bingo, we could figure this shit out.
However, that doesn't exist, so we have to rely on scales in our garage.
Those who are commenting "its nothing like a moto" I respectfully disagree. You aren't wrong that the weight is more dynamic on a mountain bike, but if we set the bike up correctly, it should allow for a 46/51 weight distribution on flat ground when standing on the pedals in a neutral riding stance.
In my experience, if you can arrive at this weight distribution, you'll be able to weight the bike through your legs and let the bike work around you.
If you push your stack to high, it pushes your weight back. If you push your stack too low, it'll put too much weight on your hands.
The problem is, there is no getting around the intrinsic design of a frame's geometry, so what you might want to do from a comfort or "neutral body position" perspective you are unable to do from a weight distribution standpoint.
This is why I'd argue mountain bike geometry has been "doing it wrong" for a long time. Sometimes they get lucky in one size or another, but ultimately, we're looking at weight distribution as a secondary end point, not primary. This, in fact, should be how we are fitting enduro bikes & DH bikes. Its likely the most important handling characteristic that is barely discussed or measured.
SO yeah, as we've all noted, you can't just push your HBar height high and expect good handling or bad handling. Its very much going to depend on a whole bunch of other variables...
The comparison to motos is a little bit weird and probably not that helpful for a few reasons. Chief among them being motos don't come in sizes, but most race oriented ones allow you to adjust the reach on the triples. Some people futz with peg or bar height but in offroad most pro bikes have close to stock cockpits regardless of rider height. Raising the bars is an old guy or leisure rider thing unless it's to clear a steering damper. You can raise or lower the forks but i've never heard of anyone looking to go fast doing it for bar height.
Second the handling dynamics are quite a bit more varied, If you're cornering a MTB sitting down you're doing it wrong or the corner is technically trivial. On a moto you sit for ruts, berms and corners requiring hard deceleration or acceleration which can still be quite technical or rough. At some point if it's really rough then you stand and deal with it or at higher speeds where you gain more from good visibility than lower COG. The rider can also move forward or backward a lot and the wheelbases are like 2000mm with ~100mm of adjustability in the chain stays.
When it comes to picking the front wheel up, no one is physically strong enough to use upper body or weight transfer. It's a bit more nuanced because the proper technique to loft the front wheel does involve a weight transfer but it's not to only to lighten the front end but to also increase traction over the rear as you have to use the motor or flywheel in the form of a rev/clutch dump to make it happen. Cody Webb who like 6'2" has been quoted as saying lower bars are important to that movement.
Going OTB on a dirt bike isn't really a thing even when it's really steep but when it happens it's apocalyptic. Bar height would factor in about not at all compared to the other physics involved
It's just a different ball game, MTB's don't outweigh the rider by 100lbs and experience the same frequency and amplitude of acceleration/deceleration.
The comparison to motos is a little bit weird and probably not that helpful for a few reasons. Chief among them being motos don't come in...
The comparison to motos is a little bit weird and probably not that helpful for a few reasons. Chief among them being motos don't come in sizes, but most race oriented ones allow you to adjust the reach on the triples. Some people futz with peg or bar height but in offroad most pro bikes have close to stock cockpits regardless of rider height. Raising the bars is an old guy or leisure rider thing unless it's to clear a steering damper. You can raise or lower the forks but i've never heard of anyone looking to go fast doing it for bar height.
Second the handling dynamics are quite a bit more varied, If you're cornering a MTB sitting down you're doing it wrong or the corner is technically trivial. On a moto you sit for ruts, berms and corners requiring hard deceleration or acceleration which can still be quite technical or rough. At some point if it's really rough then you stand and deal with it or at higher speeds where you gain more from good visibility than lower COG. The rider can also move forward or backward a lot and the wheelbases are like 2000mm with ~100mm of adjustability in the chain stays.
When it comes to picking the front wheel up, no one is physically strong enough to use upper body or weight transfer. It's a bit more nuanced because the proper technique to loft the front wheel does involve a weight transfer but it's not to only to lighten the front end but to also increase traction over the rear as you have to use the motor or flywheel in the form of a rev/clutch dump to make it happen. Cody Webb who like 6'2" has been quoted as saying lower bars are important to that movement.
Going OTB on a dirt bike isn't really a thing even when it's really steep but when it happens it's apocalyptic. Bar height would factor in about not at all compared to the other physics involved
It's just a different ball game, MTB's don't outweigh the rider by 100lbs and experience the same frequency and amplitude of acceleration/deceleration.
Long story long...
I've raced and ridden mountain bikes for 20 years (hence why I'm so grumpy and salty
). I've only ridden moto (off-road) for 2.5 years, but I'd wager I'm probably faster on a dirt bike (relatively speaking) than a mountain bike. When I moved over, I instantly realized the bike was working under me in a way my mountain bike really didn't. I was riding through my legs more, using my hands for "touch". I'd get done with a day of moto and my legs would actually be smoked! One big caveat to mention here, I'm 6'2" and generally am on longer bikes (480-510mm reach).
Motos don't come in sizes for two reasons. First, it'd be more expensive. Second, because there is so much engineering that goes into weight distribution. Yeah, you can move your bars forward or backwards like...an inch. And you can move your pegs up and down like...10mm. But overall its a one size for all type of thing. Oh, and you can slide your wheel in the dropouts a significant amount to change the handling characteristics of the rear end.
This is exactly why I think we can learn so much from motos. While I don't disagree that the mass of the engine makes things feel different, I do strongly believe that there is a sweet spot to put the rider between two wheels. Motorcylces have spent a lot of time working on this problem. Mountain bikes really haven't, largely because they come in a "full size run". This leads to certain bikes that work well in some sizes, and terrible in other sizes.
Finally, my moto is basically the same weight as I am (with my pack, boots, helmet etc). It doesn't outweigh me by 100lbs.
Again, I'm not trying to say "its the same", but what I learned from moto and applied to mountain biking has made for a pretty big breakthrough when it comes to handling.
The comparison to motos is a little bit weird and probably not that helpful for a few reasons. Chief among them being motos don't come in...
The comparison to motos is a little bit weird and probably not that helpful for a few reasons. Chief among them being motos don't come in sizes, but most race oriented ones allow you to adjust the reach on the triples. Some people futz with peg or bar height but in offroad most pro bikes have close to stock cockpits regardless of rider height. Raising the bars is an old guy or leisure rider thing unless it's to clear a steering damper. You can raise or lower the forks but i've never heard of anyone looking to go fast doing it for bar height.
Second the handling dynamics are quite a bit more varied, If you're cornering a MTB sitting down you're doing it wrong or the corner is technically trivial. On a moto you sit for ruts, berms and corners requiring hard deceleration or acceleration which can still be quite technical or rough. At some point if it's really rough then you stand and deal with it or at higher speeds where you gain more from good visibility than lower COG. The rider can also move forward or backward a lot and the wheelbases are like 2000mm with ~100mm of adjustability in the chain stays.
When it comes to picking the front wheel up, no one is physically strong enough to use upper body or weight transfer. It's a bit more nuanced because the proper technique to loft the front wheel does involve a weight transfer but it's not to only to lighten the front end but to also increase traction over the rear as you have to use the motor or flywheel in the form of a rev/clutch dump to make it happen. Cody Webb who like 6'2" has been quoted as saying lower bars are important to that movement.
Going OTB on a dirt bike isn't really a thing even when it's really steep but when it happens it's apocalyptic. Bar height would factor in about not at all compared to the other physics involved
It's just a different ball game, MTB's don't outweigh the rider by 100lbs and experience the same frequency and amplitude of acceleration/deceleration.
Long story long...
I've raced and ridden mountain bikes for 20 years (hence why I'm so grumpy and salty ;) ). I've only ridden moto (off-road)...
Long story long...
I've raced and ridden mountain bikes for 20 years (hence why I'm so grumpy and salty
). I've only ridden moto (off-road) for 2.5 years, but I'd wager I'm probably faster on a dirt bike (relatively speaking) than a mountain bike. When I moved over, I instantly realized the bike was working under me in a way my mountain bike really didn't. I was riding through my legs more, using my hands for "touch". I'd get done with a day of moto and my legs would actually be smoked! One big caveat to mention here, I'm 6'2" and generally am on longer bikes (480-510mm reach).
Motos don't come in sizes for two reasons. First, it'd be more expensive. Second, because there is so much engineering that goes into weight distribution. Yeah, you can move your bars forward or backwards like...an inch. And you can move your pegs up and down like...10mm. But overall its a one size for all type of thing. Oh, and you can slide your wheel in the dropouts a significant amount to change the handling characteristics of the rear end.
This is exactly why I think we can learn so much from motos. While I don't disagree that the mass of the engine makes things feel different, I do strongly believe that there is a sweet spot to put the rider between two wheels. Motorcylces have spent a lot of time working on this problem. Mountain bikes really haven't, largely because they come in a "full size run". This leads to certain bikes that work well in some sizes, and terrible in other sizes.
Finally, my moto is basically the same weight as I am (with my pack, boots, helmet etc). It doesn't outweigh me by 100lbs.
Again, I'm not trying to say "its the same", but what I learned from moto and applied to mountain biking has made for a pretty big breakthrough when it comes to handling.
Yeah i know i wrote a novel haha... I agree that they are the same but different I think there is so much more to it than engine mass, a hecking rear moto wheel ready to ride weighs as much or more than a MTB, tires are like 10-14lbs. They just weigh a lot! My rider to bike weight comparison was more a strength to weight one than bike mass to rider mass, gear and a pack don't improve that in the riders favor! I'm not trying to be argumentative, just clarifying my initial statement.
I do agree there is a sweet spot for the rider to be but it is different if you're trying to go up a 1m ledge from a near stop in hard enduro or trying to hold speed on a 90* flat corner in the desert @50mph and that sweet spot is dynamic, the seats aren't that long for looks! If you're hitting a drop, corner, or jump at speed on a MTB it's about the same. Maybe the delta position change is relative to the bike mass? The coaching clinics may say something different but I've noticed, at least at what I consider the intermediate level, riders who have gone through those have a "distinct" style.
Go watch videos of Tony Bou ride trials, Graham Jarvis ride hard enduro, and Toby Price ride desert, they will all move fore/aft A LOT. I just can't think of a scenario in MTBing (DH) which is similar outside of play riding or low speed jank.
I agree MTB could learn a lot from moto, but moto could lean a lot from MTB(RIP RN-01), like wheel and suspension standardization. KTM is probably the best about it since you can put a wheel or fork from 2000 on a bike from 2020 if you wanted but much to the aftermarket's joy it takes some doing to put a Yamaha fork on a KTM.
I'm similar to you in that I've ridden/raced MTB for 25ish years (expert/cat1 MSC packfill in the glory days) but I've ridden dirt bikes for about 10 years and been a much more successful racer having broken into the top 30 overall at a few national/international races in fields of 300+ in a couple disciplines so I'm not completely talking out my ass haha.
Yeah i know i wrote a novel haha... I agree that they are the same but different I think there is so much more to it...
Yeah i know i wrote a novel haha... I agree that they are the same but different I think there is so much more to it than engine mass, a hecking rear moto wheel ready to ride weighs as much or more than a MTB, tires are like 10-14lbs. They just weigh a lot! My rider to bike weight comparison was more a strength to weight one than bike mass to rider mass, gear and a pack don't improve that in the riders favor! I'm not trying to be argumentative, just clarifying my initial statement.
I do agree there is a sweet spot for the rider to be but it is different if you're trying to go up a 1m ledge from a near stop in hard enduro or trying to hold speed on a 90* flat corner in the desert @50mph and that sweet spot is dynamic, the seats aren't that long for looks! If you're hitting a drop, corner, or jump at speed on a MTB it's about the same. Maybe the delta position change is relative to the bike mass? The coaching clinics may say something different but I've noticed, at least at what I consider the intermediate level, riders who have gone through those have a "distinct" style.
Go watch videos of Tony Bou ride trials, Graham Jarvis ride hard enduro, and Toby Price ride desert, they will all move fore/aft A LOT. I just can't think of a scenario in MTBing (DH) which is similar outside of play riding or low speed jank.
I agree MTB could learn a lot from moto, but moto could lean a lot from MTB(RIP RN-01), like wheel and suspension standardization. KTM is probably the best about it since you can put a wheel or fork from 2000 on a bike from 2020 if you wanted but much to the aftermarket's joy it takes some doing to put a Yamaha fork on a KTM.
I'm similar to you in that I've ridden/raced MTB for 25ish years (expert/cat1 MSC packfill in the glory days) but I've ridden dirt bikes for about 10 years and been a much more successful racer having broken into the top 30 overall at a few national/international races in fields of 300+ in a couple disciplines so I'm not completely talking out my ass haha.
First, just wanted to say we've definitely crossed paths. Rad to hear of your success on the dirt scooter.
Second, no doubt you move around on a moto, just like a mountain bike. That's what makes it fun! What I am getting at however is you are in a really neutral spot right from the get go on a dirt bike so that you aren't "fighting" the bike. I've had some mountain bikes give me this feel (lately), but we monkey with mountain bike fit so much its easy to stray from this if you aren't thinking of weight distribution. I can think of a number of bikes where my arm/hand fatigue was so bad riding sustained descents almost wasn't fun. I used to think it was suspension setup, but I couldn't have been more wrong.
As you know, the good riders rarely change much with respect to fit on the motorized side of things. I can't think of one good off-road/hard enduro type rider who runs a bar riser or a tall seat. You'll hear of riders change their sag to the tune of 2-4mm with "OMG" type of results (I'm not totally convinced this isn't a bit between the ears).
My big point here is there really is a sweet spot that allows the rider to work the bike from a neutral spot. Sure, in hard enduro you'll see riders get all over the front of the bike to do a move, but this isn't all that analogous to anything we do on a mountain bike, as you noted.
What blows me away on a dirt bike, and certain mountain bikes when you set them up right, is just how intuitive the handling can in fact feel. (specifically, cornering) As a tall guy, it was a pretty wild experience to all of a sudden not have to feel like I'm "driving" the front wheel through the twisties but instead utilizing my legs (almost like when I ski).
I've been able to successfully apply this fit hypothesis to mountain bikes, but I have to be really careful when I'm doing this from the start. If the reach is too long in proportion to the rear end, I'll never get where I want to. Thankfully, rear ends have grown lately, and I've actually downsized to reaches that are 475-490mm.
Ultimately, doing so has actually allowed me to bring my bars up, but there have been times when doing so I had to bring in a shorter offset (37mm) fork to really get things where I wanted them. There are benefits/negatives to doing this, too, btw.
Team Robot has been noting this for 1/2 a decade (handling balance). Vorsprung has a great video where they compare reach and rear end length, talking about the bike's balance (and rider fatigue).
The idea of mountain bike "fit" has a ways to go, being there really isn't anything all that objective at this point. Its "guess and check". Which is where this thread originated from (in a way).
Who wants to go in on a kickstarter where we build sensors that are placed at both axles. The weight measurements are logged in real time and bike fit suggestions can be figured out in a more dynamic setting....
I've been studying bike setup for 25 years and coaching for 21, these are my thoughts.
Precise handle height is more important than I realized! Many of my students' handlebars are too high and often we lower them 10-50mm, to get them in a better, more confident position.
Often bikes come from the shop in the most comfortable position with 20-50mm of spacers under the stem and riser bars (bars that ride 15 to 40mm higher than the stem). This feels good in the parking lot and while seated and pedaling on mellow terrain but when you want to ride more demanding trails it can get in the way.
In my courses, I explain that if your bars are too high it makes riding more difficult. When climbing with your handlebars too high it is hard to hinge forward enough to keep the front wheel on the ground on steep climbs, even when you have slid your weight all the forward on the saddle.
With high handlebars, wheelies and manuals are harder to do as well as tending to put you in a “hanging off the handlebars body position” with your weight too far back while descending.
The goal of finding the right handlebar height is to find a height that puts you in an athletic, centered, neutral and hinged body position when standing and descending while not compromising your climbing body position.
Reaching this goal has become a challenge as our wheels get bigger and our forks get taller with more suspension travel. For people approximately 5’6” and shorter it was much easier to get the bar height right on a 26” wheeled bike with 75mm of suspension travel than a 29er with 130-170mm of travel.
Before we get further with bar height let me explain an important riding concept. Riding confidently and on the offense (riding with a focus on accomplishing what you WANT to do instead of focusing on what you DON'T WANT to do) is one of the most important aspects of mountain biking.
Focusing on getting to the bottom of the descent smoothly or quickly instead of focusing on not crashing, is paramount to riding at your best.
It turns out that HANDLE HEIGHT affects more than just your body position! A mere 16mm rise in bar height (that I thought was going to take the stress off my shoulders and allow me to look further ahead) not only hurt my position (as I teach) but it killed my confidence.
That 16mm rise put me in the "hanging off the back of your bike position" In my courses, I teach that too-high handlebars make it harder to stay centered while descending.
If you think about it, that is a very defensive posture; leaning back away from danger.
It is also more upright than being hinged forward at the hips with a flat back. Being upright decreases our stability and our ability to stay neutral (where we can react/pro-act better to what the trail throws at use.
Well, that defensive posture put me on the defensive and I spent the week of the National Championships riding scared (I managed to win but was disappointed in my nervous riding). Let me tell you this is a vicious cycle!
Start riding on the defensive and you start making mistakes. Those mistakes scare you so you feel like you can't ride well - further shaking your confidence.
Of course, I attributed this to a crash I had three weeks before, not to the seemingly insignificant change in bar height (which did feel a little weird right away but change always feels weird so I just thought I would get used to it).
After racing the National Championships and then another regional race I was really frustrated with how I was riding (despite winning my class).
BUT THEN I realized my handlebar height might be the culprit so I lowered the bars 10mm by removing two headset spacers under the stem. The difference in confidence was immediate! With the first run with lower bars, I was riding much more aggressively!
Until this experiment, it would have been hard for me to believe 10mm in bar height could make that much of a difference but, it did! It forced me to hinge a little more and more importantly: it centered me over the bike in a much more stable and aggressive position.
I often tell students that their handlebars are too high when they are obviously 20-60mm too high but now I know I need to stress experimenting with bar height more for all my students! If 10mm can make a huge difference in body position, confidence and control imagine what 15-60mm could do!
All of that contributes to putting us in an upright and slightly back of center position: not quite in balance, not neutral and ultimately a defensive position.
IN SHORT - experiment with your handlebar height! Go as low as you can go with your current bars. Many riders (those under 5'10 riding 29ers and under 5'8" on 27.5 bikes) should try a bar with no rise.
Your handlebar height should help you achieve the hinged-at-the-hips-flat-back riding position like Aaron Gwin and Amaury Pierron pictured below.
I wish there was a simple formula for bar height. For me, it is when my bars are about 3" above my knee when standing and coasting with pedals level. For shorter people, it can be as high as their belly button when they are standing on the pedals.
Again the goal is to have your bars low enough for climbing and to put you in an athletic, hinged at the hips position when standing and descending. Too low and it may hurt your back and make it hard to look ahead. Too high and you may struggle with keeping your front wheel on the ground during steep climbs and/or find yourself hanging off the back of your bike while descending.
The old rule of thumb that your handlebars should be level with your seat (at full climbing height) to 3 inches below your seat (at full climbing height) is a great place to start. In general, the taller you are the more drop from seat height to bar height you will have.
At 6’3” my bars are about 2.5” lower than my seat. Many riders who are under 5’6” will find it hard to even get the handlebars level with the seat on a 29r. Pro cross country racer Chloe Woodruff who 5’2” runs a negative rise stem to get her bars lower (as do many riders under 5’6”, especially if they ride 29er’s).
Many/most mountain bikes are sold with the handlebars as high as the steerer tube will allow. This is usually the most comfortable position for seated riding (allows a straighter back, less hinging at the hips) and it leaves four or five 5mm spacers under the stem giving you 20-25mm of adjustment.
Often, I suggest a student remove all the spacers from below their stem and put them on top (lowering their bars 20-50mm) and they love it.
All of my bike setup suggestions are based on performance, not comfort! Comfort is important though if your bike isn’t comfortable you are less likely to want to ride it. If you find lowering your handlebars to be uncomfortable (give it 4-5 rides to see if your body adapts) you may be forced to choose between comfort and performance (or work on your core strength and mobility).
Lower bars will always help in climbing too (as it is easier to keep enough weight over the front wheel). With today's taller bikes most of us could benefit from lowering our bars.
All of us could benefit from experimenting with bar height!
Go out and experiment! Take your time, change feels weird so weird isn’t necessarily bad.
Experienced guys, could you give an opinion on how much weight (while pedaling) should be on your handlebars?
I don't want to masquerade as an "experienced" guy, but I understand the answer is, "not very much." You want to be heavy on the pedals and light on the bars.
Experienced guys, could you give an opinion on how much weight (while pedaling) should be on your handlebars?
Great thread fa sho, don't stop now. I'm 5'8" and moved from a bike with 420 reach to 450, same stack (within 2mm), and a steeper seat tube angle puts the effective top tube within 5mm of my old bike. Been riding 15 years and have never had so much difficulty getting the fit right. I feel stretched out and over the front wheel on the steeps. Have measured the bike in every possible way and the cockpit is almost identical to my old bike. I think the issue is once I'm out of the saddle, the difference in reach is very real and a higher stack is a necessity--regardless of seated climbing position/comfort.
I don't want to masquerade as an "experienced" guy, but I understand the answer is, "not very much." You want to be heavy on the pedals...
I don't want to masquerade as an "experienced" guy, but I understand the answer is, "not very much." You want to be heavy on the pedals and light on the bars.
And thanks, everyone, for all the replies.
Actually you want to weight the bars pretty heavily. Escpecially when climbing. You use your abs and back to pull the bars backwards and down and towards the bb. The key is not weighting the front wheel down into the fork. This will cause bob, bad traction, and is really only fine if you are sprinting a flat or the likes.
"Actually you want to weight the bars pretty heavily. Escpecially when climbing. You use your abs and back to pull the bars backwards and down and towards the bb." I disagree with this advice. There are very few times on extremely steep technical climbs where I'll pull the bars back and down, but everywhere else the handlebars are just a place to rest my hands and help keep my front wheel in check. With road bikes and mountain bikes, if you have a lot of weight on your hands, your hands/wrists/shoulders/back will hurt and potentially go numb. Your bars should be in a position where your hands naturally drape across them at your normal pedaling pace.
"Actually you want to weight the bars pretty heavily. Escpecially when climbing. You use your abs and back to pull the bars backwards and down and...
"Actually you want to weight the bars pretty heavily. Escpecially when climbing. You use your abs and back to pull the bars backwards and down and towards the bb." I disagree with this advice. There are very few times on extremely steep technical climbs where I'll pull the bars back and down, but everywhere else the handlebars are just a place to rest my hands and help keep my front wheel in check. With road bikes and mountain bikes, if you have a lot of weight on your hands, your hands/wrists/shoulders/back will hurt and potentially go numb. Your bars should be in a position where your hands naturally drape across them at your normal pedaling pace.
I think this may also depend on whether you tend to ride the climbs (even the not so technical ones) hard or are just spinning your way to the top. I like rowdy downhills but my average ride is pretty xc focused as I’m trying to get an extra lap in by pushing on climbs unless I’m gassed.
That's the reason I asked, because it seems 'weight on the handlebars or not' has a lot of different opinions.Also feel that many of the things we do is compensation for our bikes weird geo or fit. In the case of heavily weighted bars it really seems to assist with front wheel traction when chainstays are too short. Still trying to parse this out.
Don't know if it's correct but I have a lot of weight on my hands when seated, and it definitely uses up strength but I've completely adapted. This position has my hands mostly relaxed however when I stand which is what I prioritize.
I also climb nasty technical stuff often and have tried the pull back and down technique, but mostly I think it's compensation for too slack of a STA and just wasted energy. If I lean my upper body forward enough to center my gravity I can relax my hands and climb anything.
A new Evo is on the way for me and I'm excited to work on getting it to feel and fit right for me. Hopefully I didn't go too large with an S5 at only 5'11" but I really wanted those longer CSs that don't start until the S5.
IMO, manufacturers are still getting the geo of 9'ers dialed and some are much better than others. I think many have a reach that's way too short (like my '18 Trek Slash) and this makes f/r balance awkward and difficult, it feels like you're too far over the front end. The new '21 Slash (in L) is a full inch longer in reach vs the previous model, which is about the same reach as my '20 Enduro. This reach feels MUCH more natural to me, f/r balance is so much easier to get right and, of course, chainstay length needs to be looked at too, IMO the new Slash completely dropped the ball with CSs that are still too short. The geo on the '20 Enduro is really dialed for me and IMO.
Next is the poor technique displayed by a vast majority of riders, especially when it gets steep. I do agree that raising bar height is good for steeps to a degree, but OTOH a vast majority of riders are too far back when it gets steep and a higher bar height just makes this worse. Looking at skilled riders, there's not a massive difference in body position when cornering on flats vs steeps! This part I'm working on, I think there's a massive difference between riding steeps on a bike that's 15+ yrs old vs a modern enduro bike, and it's not easy for a lot of us old folks to adapt, but it's necessary to ride the bike properly. And FWIW, this isn't just my own opinion, it's what I've got out of a little bit of coaching from a pro who finished top 20 in the EWS in '19, so I hope it can be useful to some folks.
So in any case, I'd agree with BetterRide and some others that it's easy to have too high of a bar height, and easy to ride with suboptimal technique in terms of not having enough weight on the bars. Wonky geo on some bikes also isn't helping, and the truth is major issues with rider technique on mtbs is the norm, it's hard to find riders using proper technique on corners and steeps that are not already pro level riders. Proper technique isn't intuitive and is almost impossible to see just casually observing good riders, so a vast majority of mtb'ers plateau and then never progress.
Here's a minor update. I took a picture just to illustrate my point. The footpeg height on the MX bike is at least comparable with the BB on my Commencal. However, note how much lower the seat is and how much higher the handlebars are. I can see why pedaling would throw some of this into turmoil (especially while seated,) but imagine coasting downhill while standing. There's a much different body position on the motorcycle, and I think it would be beneficial for DH and Enduro guys. For me, at least I think it would. Check it out:
I just rode my XXL Transition Spire for the first time and had a big issue with the too low stack height. For some reason the factory sent the Zeb out with the steerer tube cut so only 20mm of spacer will go under the stem, 40mm stem 5 degree rise, and 40mm bars.
I have rolled the bars forward to just rearward of vertical, kept the 20mm spacers under the stem and I still have a bar to seat height differential of around 4in from the top of the end of the grip to top of seat center. This is the first bike with a dropper I've ever owned which would allow full seat extension. When I last owned a trail bike in 2016 I would run the 150 dropper up from minimum insertion on my XL Patrol and still be wanting more. As reach numbers increased on the bikes I've borrowed over the years I've noticed the low bar issue more and more, to keep a neutral position you have to increase stack with reach.
I realize my legs are very long for a just under 6'5" person but an XXL should probably only be fitting 6'3" riders and above with stack heights in the 680+ range. If that doesn't fit you, then go to an XL. As it is, my 6'3" friend with short legs and long arms felt the stack height was awesome and that's in the very highest possible position from the factory. I will be writing Transition to see what they have to say and will probably stop by to Karen them in Bellingham on a trip at the end of the month, all they had to do on an XXL bike is not cut steerer tube so short and let the tall to very very tall consumer decide where to cut it. I've just purchased the Pro Taper 76mm rise bars and a 31.8 stem to remedy my very sore hands from today's 15 mile ride, but I shouldn't have to do that on a brand new "XXL" bike that I paid multiple thousands of dollars for.
As for another bike with incredibly low stack height, I rode my brother's XL Commencal Supreme 29 at the ski hill last weekend and felt like I was doing a heavy shoulder work out every time I broke until I adopted a way back body position. Commencal sends the bike out with below minimum Fox Racing spec clamp to clamp measurements and a same size headtube and stack for all their frame sizes. Naturally they also cut the steerer tube with 5mm of room to spare so I have ordered 40mm bars and 20mm of stem spacers but that reduces the reach a ton and will probably not be within an inch and a half of where the bars would be comfortable. It's so darn whack.
Are there other people on here that struggle with getting not-uncomfortable bar heights out of their bicycles since longer reaches have come along? Did you try out the 76mm bars, Falcon?
I just rode my XXL Transition Spire for the first time and had a big issue with the too low stack height. For some reason the...
I just rode my XXL Transition Spire for the first time and had a big issue with the too low stack height. For some reason the factory sent the Zeb out with the steerer tube cut so only 20mm of spacer will go under the stem, 40mm stem 5 degree rise, and 40mm bars.
I have rolled the bars forward to just rearward of vertical, kept the 20mm spacers under the stem and I still have a bar to seat height differential of around 4in from the top of the end of the grip to top of seat center. This is the first bike with a dropper I've ever owned which would allow full seat extension. When I last owned a trail bike in 2016 I would run the 150 dropper up from minimum insertion on my XL Patrol and still be wanting more. As reach numbers increased on the bikes I've borrowed over the years I've noticed the low bar issue more and more, to keep a neutral position you have to increase stack with reach.
I realize my legs are very long for a just under 6'5" person but an XXL should probably only be fitting 6'3" riders and above with stack heights in the 680+ range. If that doesn't fit you, then go to an XL. As it is, my 6'3" friend with short legs and long arms felt the stack height was awesome and that's in the very highest possible position from the factory. I will be writing Transition to see what they have to say and will probably stop by to Karen them in Bellingham on a trip at the end of the month, all they had to do on an XXL bike is not cut steerer tube so short and let the tall to very very tall consumer decide where to cut it. I've just purchased the Pro Taper 76mm rise bars and a 31.8 stem to remedy my very sore hands from today's 15 mile ride, but I shouldn't have to do that on a brand new "XXL" bike that I paid multiple thousands of dollars for.
As for another bike with incredibly low stack height, I rode my brother's XL Commencal Supreme 29 at the ski hill last weekend and felt like I was doing a heavy shoulder work out every time I broke until I adopted a way back body position. Commencal sends the bike out with below minimum Fox Racing spec clamp to clamp measurements and a same size headtube and stack for all their frame sizes. Naturally they also cut the steerer tube with 5mm of room to spare so I have ordered 40mm bars and 20mm of stem spacers but that reduces the reach a ton and will probably not be within an inch and a half of where the bars would be comfortable. It's so darn whack.
Are there other people on here that struggle with getting not-uncomfortable bar heights out of their bicycles since longer reaches have come along? Did you try out the 76mm bars, Falcon?
I suppose it's too late now, but as you are finding out Stack is one of the most important geo specs for a tall fella. It's very disappointing the fork came cut so short, the larger the size the more steerer they should come with.
I'm only 6'1, but with my XL bike with 650mm stack I still have 35mm under the stem and 38mm rise bars, I could probably go another 5mm higher as front end grip is plentiful thanks to a 463mm Chainstay.
I suppose it's too late now, but as you are finding out Stack is one of the most important geo specs for a tall fella. It's...
I suppose it's too late now, but as you are finding out Stack is one of the most important geo specs for a tall fella. It's very disappointing the fork came cut so short, the larger the size the more steerer they should come with.
I'm only 6'1, but with my XL bike with 650mm stack I still have 35mm under the stem and 38mm rise bars, I could probably go another 5mm higher as front end grip is plentiful thanks to a 463mm Chainstay.
Which bike?
Ive always found stack to be related to Reach but its two things i look at 475-480 reach, must have 630+ stack(im 6ft an always ride larges)
However i've ridden the trance x 27.5(the new one) and its got like 615 stack with 474 reach and it was pretty good, Did feel a little over the front but It made that bike super fun.
I demo'd the new Fuel ex the other day with i think 621 stack on a large with 485 reach and while i think it feels a little low it made the bike fun, About what i would call a good pedaling bike with being extra capable going down.
We definitely need to do this in order to accelerate properly, or the power would make us wheelie uncontrollably.
So far, at the top height there was a lot of issues with front end traction in situations where you wouldn't expect it. Front end drifted a lot when just cruising/not riding aggressively. In steep/rough/fast riding it felt OK, but again some weird traction issues and there were several times when I had to pull the front tire back in line by yanking on the inside grip. Felt controlable, but definitely some big "WHOA" moments.
At the bottom position it feels like I am driving my front wheel into every rock and gap. I ride long wheelbase/slack bikes so I never felt like I was going over the bars, but it was not comfortable, fast or fun. Just too much pressure on my hands.
As to why this is different from moto? On a dirt bike the majority of the mass is in the machine itself. A 190 lb rider on a 250 lb bike means that the machine is the primary force. On an MTB, a 190 lb rider on a 35 lb bike is a completely different dynamic. Body position and movement has a much larger effect on fore/aft bias, etc.
I tested higher and lower bar positions before settling on my current setup, and Salespunk did a great job of describing the same sensations I felt whenever I moved outside my current bar height happy place. If I go any taller, my hands feel high and disconnected from the front wheel. Things are happening down there, but it's often a surprise when they happen. That means I have to overcompensate and lean on the handlebar deliberately to weight the front wheel, and that means I'm doing a lot of extra work and wearing out my hands and arms. It also means I'm not riding neutral and instinctively, but instead I have to make a lot of conscious choices about how to weight the front wheel. This is inherently slow and awkward feeling.
If I go lower than that with my bars, I have a bunch of weight shifted onto my hands and I feel hunched over on the bike. It rides great on jump trails, smooth trails, and flat bits, but anywhere rough or fast and it's horrifying. I think a lot of "suspension problems" people describe come from poor bike fit. If you look at the symptoms Salespunk and I described, they're all suspension and traction related ("feels rough" "driving the front wheel into holes," etc), but the problem is actually bar height. So when people complain about suspension problems, I often wonder "is your fork too harsh, or are your bars too low?" I think a lot of people have a "fix the suspension first" attitude that leads them to ride overly plush forks, bars that are too low, and ultimately results in them riding overly slow.
Clearly lots of people are experiencing similar stack height issues as the OP because every MTB I see has a huge stack of spacers under the bars. Sometimes it's flat comical looking.
I've always ran the tallest bars I liked (35mm currently) on my MTBs with as few spacers under the stem as possible for a longer Reach & less flex in the steerer.
Actively weighting my front tire is something that must be done on my current bike (L- Foxy 29) as a result of a long front center but a short back end reducing front wheel traction otherwise. It actually becomes completely intuitive and a fast way to maneuver, but you really have to force yourself in the beginning and also trust a lot. Don't think this is ideal which is a major motivation in me ordering a new frame. But having a low front end really is required to make this happen.
Right now I have a '21 Evo frame on order and the primary reasons that I jumped to the S5 from the S4 (as I sort of straddled the in-between space at only 5'11") was that I wanted the taller Stack as well as the 448mm CS length that doesn't start until the S5. I'm just using reason to determine all of this as due to Covid, I haven't even touched an actual Evo. I do have oddly long legs and run my peddle to seat distance at exactly 36" so it sounds like this is a contributing factor to my preference for taller/ longer bikes.
In short, I think the OP is really on to something and that MTBs might really need taller front ends.
Think I'm going to need to work on those nose wheelie turns however as these bikes are getting awfully long.
The answer is "it depends".
Your bar height is going to be determined by a ton of factors (as others have already stated).
*Where you ride
*The type of bike you are riding
*The reach & rear end length of the bike you are riding
*Your own proportions
*Your own style
Ultimately, the best way to determine this would be to put sensors on our bikes to see how we are weighting the bike when riding. Couple this with perceived fatigue and bingo, we could figure this shit out.
However, that doesn't exist, so we have to rely on scales in our garage.
Those who are commenting "its nothing like a moto" I respectfully disagree. You aren't wrong that the weight is more dynamic on a mountain bike, but if we set the bike up correctly, it should allow for a 46/51 weight distribution on flat ground when standing on the pedals in a neutral riding stance.
In my experience, if you can arrive at this weight distribution, you'll be able to weight the bike through your legs and let the bike work around you.
If you push your stack to high, it pushes your weight back. If you push your stack too low, it'll put too much weight on your hands.
The problem is, there is no getting around the intrinsic design of a frame's geometry, so what you might want to do from a comfort or "neutral body position" perspective you are unable to do from a weight distribution standpoint.
This is why I'd argue mountain bike geometry has been "doing it wrong" for a long time. Sometimes they get lucky in one size or another, but ultimately, we're looking at weight distribution as a secondary end point, not primary. This, in fact, should be how we are fitting enduro bikes & DH bikes. Its likely the most important handling characteristic that is barely discussed or measured.
SO yeah, as we've all noted, you can't just push your HBar height high and expect good handling or bad handling. Its very much going to depend on a whole bunch of other variables...
Second the handling dynamics are quite a bit more varied, If you're cornering a MTB sitting down you're doing it wrong or the corner is technically trivial. On a moto you sit for ruts, berms and corners requiring hard deceleration or acceleration which can still be quite technical or rough. At some point if it's really rough then you stand and deal with it or at higher speeds where you gain more from good visibility than lower COG. The rider can also move forward or backward a lot and the wheelbases are like 2000mm with ~100mm of adjustability in the chain stays.
When it comes to picking the front wheel up, no one is physically strong enough to use upper body or weight transfer. It's a bit more nuanced because the proper technique to loft the front wheel does involve a weight transfer but it's not to only to lighten the front end but to also increase traction over the rear as you have to use the motor or flywheel in the form of a rev/clutch dump to make it happen. Cody Webb who like 6'2" has been quoted as saying lower bars are important to that movement.
Going OTB on a dirt bike isn't really a thing even when it's really steep but when it happens it's apocalyptic. Bar height would factor in about not at all compared to the other physics involved
It's just a different ball game, MTB's don't outweigh the rider by 100lbs and experience the same frequency and amplitude of acceleration/deceleration.
I've raced and ridden mountain bikes for 20 years (hence why I'm so grumpy and salty
Motos don't come in sizes for two reasons. First, it'd be more expensive. Second, because there is so much engineering that goes into weight distribution. Yeah, you can move your bars forward or backwards like...an inch. And you can move your pegs up and down like...10mm. But overall its a one size for all type of thing. Oh, and you can slide your wheel in the dropouts a significant amount to change the handling characteristics of the rear end.
This is exactly why I think we can learn so much from motos. While I don't disagree that the mass of the engine makes things feel different, I do strongly believe that there is a sweet spot to put the rider between two wheels. Motorcylces have spent a lot of time working on this problem. Mountain bikes really haven't, largely because they come in a "full size run". This leads to certain bikes that work well in some sizes, and terrible in other sizes.
Finally, my moto is basically the same weight as I am (with my pack, boots, helmet etc). It doesn't outweigh me by 100lbs.
Again, I'm not trying to say "its the same", but what I learned from moto and applied to mountain biking has made for a pretty big breakthrough when it comes to handling.
I do agree there is a sweet spot for the rider to be but it is different if you're trying to go up a 1m ledge from a near stop in hard enduro or trying to hold speed on a 90* flat corner in the desert @50mph and that sweet spot is dynamic, the seats aren't that long for looks! If you're hitting a drop, corner, or jump at speed on a MTB it's about the same. Maybe the delta position change is relative to the bike mass? The coaching clinics may say something different but I've noticed, at least at what I consider the intermediate level, riders who have gone through those have a "distinct" style.
Go watch videos of Tony Bou ride trials, Graham Jarvis ride hard enduro, and Toby Price ride desert, they will all move fore/aft A LOT. I just can't think of a scenario in MTBing (DH) which is similar outside of play riding or low speed jank.
I agree MTB could learn a lot from moto, but moto could lean a lot from MTB(RIP RN-01), like wheel and suspension standardization. KTM is probably the best about it since you can put a wheel or fork from 2000 on a bike from 2020 if you wanted but much to the aftermarket's joy it takes some doing to put a Yamaha fork on a KTM.
I'm similar to you in that I've ridden/raced MTB for 25ish years (expert/cat1 MSC packfill in the glory days) but I've ridden dirt bikes for about 10 years and been a much more successful racer having broken into the top 30 overall at a few national/international races in fields of 300+ in a couple disciplines so I'm not completely talking out my ass haha.
Second, no doubt you move around on a moto, just like a mountain bike. That's what makes it fun! What I am getting at however is you are in a really neutral spot right from the get go on a dirt bike so that you aren't "fighting" the bike. I've had some mountain bikes give me this feel (lately), but we monkey with mountain bike fit so much its easy to stray from this if you aren't thinking of weight distribution. I can think of a number of bikes where my arm/hand fatigue was so bad riding sustained descents almost wasn't fun. I used to think it was suspension setup, but I couldn't have been more wrong.
As you know, the good riders rarely change much with respect to fit on the motorized side of things. I can't think of one good off-road/hard enduro type rider who runs a bar riser or a tall seat. You'll hear of riders change their sag to the tune of 2-4mm with "OMG" type of results (I'm not totally convinced this isn't a bit between the ears).
My big point here is there really is a sweet spot that allows the rider to work the bike from a neutral spot. Sure, in hard enduro you'll see riders get all over the front of the bike to do a move, but this isn't all that analogous to anything we do on a mountain bike, as you noted.
What blows me away on a dirt bike, and certain mountain bikes when you set them up right, is just how intuitive the handling can in fact feel. (specifically, cornering) As a tall guy, it was a pretty wild experience to all of a sudden not have to feel like I'm "driving" the front wheel through the twisties but instead utilizing my legs (almost like when I ski).
I've been able to successfully apply this fit hypothesis to mountain bikes, but I have to be really careful when I'm doing this from the start. If the reach is too long in proportion to the rear end, I'll never get where I want to. Thankfully, rear ends have grown lately, and I've actually downsized to reaches that are 475-490mm.
Ultimately, doing so has actually allowed me to bring my bars up, but there have been times when doing so I had to bring in a shorter offset (37mm) fork to really get things where I wanted them. There are benefits/negatives to doing this, too, btw.
Team Robot has been noting this for 1/2 a decade (handling balance). Vorsprung has a great video where they compare reach and rear end length, talking about the bike's balance (and rider fatigue).
The idea of mountain bike "fit" has a ways to go, being there really isn't anything all that objective at this point. Its "guess and check". Which is where this thread originated from (in a way).
Who wants to go in on a kickstarter where we build sensors that are placed at both axles. The weight measurements are logged in real time and bike fit suggestions can be figured out in a more dynamic setting....
Precise handle height is more important than I realized! Many of my students' handlebars are too high and often we lower them 10-50mm, to get them in a better, more confident position.
Often bikes come from the shop in the most comfortable position with 20-50mm of spacers under the stem and riser bars (bars that ride 15 to 40mm higher than the stem). This feels good in the parking lot and while seated and pedaling on mellow terrain but when you want to ride more demanding trails it can get in the way.
In my courses, I explain that if your bars are too high it makes riding more difficult. When climbing with your handlebars too high it is hard to hinge forward enough to keep the front wheel on the ground on steep climbs, even when you have slid your weight all the forward on the saddle.
With high handlebars, wheelies and manuals are harder to do as well as tending to put you in a “hanging off the handlebars body position” with your weight too far back while descending.
The goal of finding the right handlebar height is to find a height that puts you in an athletic, centered, neutral and hinged body position when standing and descending while not compromising your climbing body position.
Reaching this goal has become a challenge as our wheels get bigger and our forks get taller with more suspension travel. For people approximately 5’6” and shorter it was much easier to get the bar height right on a 26” wheeled bike with 75mm of suspension travel than a 29er with 130-170mm of travel.
Before we get further with bar height let me explain an important riding concept. Riding confidently and on the offense (riding with a focus on accomplishing what you WANT to do instead of focusing on what you DON'T WANT to do) is one of the most important aspects of mountain biking.
Focusing on getting to the bottom of the descent smoothly or quickly instead of focusing on not crashing, is paramount to riding at your best.
It turns out that HANDLE HEIGHT affects more than just your body position! A mere 16mm rise in bar height (that I thought was going to take the stress off my shoulders and allow me to look further ahead) not only hurt my position (as I teach) but it killed my confidence.
That 16mm rise put me in the "hanging off the back of your bike position" In my courses, I teach that too-high handlebars make it harder to stay centered while descending.
If you think about it, that is a very defensive posture; leaning back away from danger.
It is also more upright than being hinged forward at the hips with a flat back. Being upright decreases our stability and our ability to stay neutral (where we can react/pro-act better to what the trail throws at use.
Well, that defensive posture put me on the defensive and I spent the week of the National Championships riding scared (I managed to win but was disappointed in my nervous riding). Let me tell you this is a vicious cycle!
Start riding on the defensive and you start making mistakes. Those mistakes scare you so you feel like you can't ride well - further shaking your confidence.
Of course, I attributed this to a crash I had three weeks before, not to the seemingly insignificant change in bar height (which did feel a little weird right away but change always feels weird so I just thought I would get used to it).
After racing the National Championships and then another regional race I was really frustrated with how I was riding (despite winning my class).
BUT THEN I realized my handlebar height might be the culprit so I lowered the bars 10mm by removing two headset spacers under the stem. The difference in confidence was immediate! With the first run with lower bars, I was riding much more aggressively!
Until this experiment, it would have been hard for me to believe 10mm in bar height could make that much of a difference but, it did! It forced me to hinge a little more and more importantly: it centered me over the bike in a much more stable and aggressive position.
I often tell students that their handlebars are too high when they are obviously 20-60mm too high but now I know I need to stress experimenting with bar height more for all my students! If 10mm can make a huge difference in body position, confidence and control imagine what 15-60mm could do!
All of that contributes to putting us in an upright and slightly back of center position: not quite in balance, not neutral and ultimately a defensive position.
IN SHORT - experiment with your handlebar height! Go as low as you can go with your current bars. Many riders (those under 5'10 riding 29ers and under 5'8" on 27.5 bikes) should try a bar with no rise.
Your handlebar height should help you achieve the hinged-at-the-hips-flat-back riding position like Aaron Gwin and Amaury Pierron pictured below.
I wish there was a simple formula for bar height. For me, it is when my bars are about 3" above my knee when standing and coasting with pedals level. For shorter people, it can be as high as their belly button when they are standing on the pedals.
Again the goal is to have your bars low enough for climbing and to put you in an athletic, hinged at the hips position when standing and descending. Too low and it may hurt your back and make it hard to look ahead. Too high and you may struggle with keeping your front wheel on the ground during steep climbs and/or find yourself hanging off the back of your bike while descending.
The old rule of thumb that your handlebars should be level with your seat (at full climbing height) to 3 inches below your seat (at full climbing height) is a great place to start. In general, the taller you are the more drop from seat height to bar height you will have.
At 6’3” my bars are about 2.5” lower than my seat. Many riders who are under 5’6” will find it hard to even get the handlebars level with the seat on a 29r. Pro cross country racer Chloe Woodruff who 5’2” runs a negative rise stem to get her bars lower (as do many riders under 5’6”, especially if they ride 29er’s).
Many/most mountain bikes are sold with the handlebars as high as the steerer tube will allow. This is usually the most comfortable position for seated riding (allows a straighter back, less hinging at the hips) and it leaves four or five 5mm spacers under the stem giving you 20-25mm of adjustment.
Often, I suggest a student remove all the spacers from below their stem and put them on top (lowering their bars 20-50mm) and they love it.
All of my bike setup suggestions are based on performance, not comfort! Comfort is important though if your bike isn’t comfortable you are less likely to want to ride it. If you find lowering your handlebars to be uncomfortable (give it 4-5 rides to see if your body adapts) you may be forced to choose between comfort and performance (or work on your core strength and mobility).
Lower bars will always help in climbing too (as it is easier to keep enough weight over the front wheel). With today's taller bikes most of us could benefit from lowering our bars.
All of us could benefit from experimenting with bar height!
Go out and experiment! Take your time, change feels weird so weird isn’t necessarily bad.
Experienced guys, could you give an opinion on how much weight (while pedaling) should be on your handlebars?
And thanks, everyone, for all the replies.
Don't know if it's correct but I have a lot of weight on my hands when seated, and it definitely uses up strength but I've completely adapted. This position has my hands mostly relaxed however when I stand which is what I prioritize.
I also climb nasty technical stuff often and have tried the pull back and down technique, but mostly I think it's compensation for too slack of a STA and just wasted energy. If I lean my upper body forward enough to center my gravity I can relax my hands and climb anything.
A new Evo is on the way for me and I'm excited to work on getting it to feel and fit right for me. Hopefully I didn't go too large with an S5 at only 5'11" but I really wanted those longer CSs that don't start until the S5.
IMO, manufacturers are still getting the geo of 9'ers dialed and some are much better than others. I think many have a reach that's way too short (like my '18 Trek Slash) and this makes f/r balance awkward and difficult, it feels like you're too far over the front end. The new '21 Slash (in L) is a full inch longer in reach vs the previous model, which is about the same reach as my '20 Enduro. This reach feels MUCH more natural to me, f/r balance is so much easier to get right and, of course, chainstay length needs to be looked at too, IMO the new Slash completely dropped the ball with CSs that are still too short. The geo on the '20 Enduro is really dialed for me and IMO.
Next is the poor technique displayed by a vast majority of riders, especially when it gets steep. I do agree that raising bar height is good for steeps to a degree, but OTOH a vast majority of riders are too far back when it gets steep and a higher bar height just makes this worse. Looking at skilled riders, there's not a massive difference in body position when cornering on flats vs steeps! This part I'm working on, I think there's a massive difference between riding steeps on a bike that's 15+ yrs old vs a modern enduro bike, and it's not easy for a lot of us old folks to adapt, but it's necessary to ride the bike properly. And FWIW, this isn't just my own opinion, it's what I've got out of a little bit of coaching from a pro who finished top 20 in the EWS in '19, so I hope it can be useful to some folks.
So in any case, I'd agree with BetterRide and some others that it's easy to have too high of a bar height, and easy to ride with suboptimal technique in terms of not having enough weight on the bars. Wonky geo on some bikes also isn't helping, and the truth is major issues with rider technique on mtbs is the norm, it's hard to find riders using proper technique on corners and steeps that are not already pro level riders. Proper technique isn't intuitive and is almost impossible to see just casually observing good riders, so a vast majority of mtb'ers plateau and then never progress.
I have rolled the bars forward to just rearward of vertical, kept the 20mm spacers under the stem and I still have a bar to seat height differential of around 4in from the top of the end of the grip to top of seat center. This is the first bike with a dropper I've ever owned which would allow full seat extension. When I last owned a trail bike in 2016 I would run the 150 dropper up from minimum insertion on my XL Patrol and still be wanting more. As reach numbers increased on the bikes I've borrowed over the years I've noticed the low bar issue more and more, to keep a neutral position you have to increase stack with reach.
I realize my legs are very long for a just under 6'5" person but an XXL should probably only be fitting 6'3" riders and above with stack heights in the 680+ range. If that doesn't fit you, then go to an XL. As it is, my 6'3" friend with short legs and long arms felt the stack height was awesome and that's in the very highest possible position from the factory. I will be writing Transition to see what they have to say and will probably stop by to Karen them in Bellingham on a trip at the end of the month, all they had to do on an XXL bike is not cut steerer tube so short and let the tall to very very tall consumer decide where to cut it. I've just purchased the Pro Taper 76mm rise bars and a 31.8 stem to remedy my very sore hands from today's 15 mile ride, but I shouldn't have to do that on a brand new "XXL" bike that I paid multiple thousands of dollars for.
As for another bike with incredibly low stack height, I rode my brother's XL Commencal Supreme 29 at the ski hill last weekend and felt like I was doing a heavy shoulder work out every time I broke until I adopted a way back body position. Commencal sends the bike out with below minimum Fox Racing spec clamp to clamp measurements and a same size headtube and stack for all their frame sizes. Naturally they also cut the steerer tube with 5mm of room to spare so I have ordered 40mm bars and 20mm of stem spacers but that reduces the reach a ton and will probably not be within an inch and a half of where the bars would be comfortable. It's so darn whack.
Are there other people on here that struggle with getting not-uncomfortable bar heights out of their bicycles since longer reaches have come along? Did you try out the 76mm bars, Falcon?
I'm only 6'1, but with my XL bike with 650mm stack I still have 35mm under the stem and 38mm rise bars, I could probably go another 5mm higher as front end grip is plentiful thanks to a 463mm Chainstay.
Ive always found stack to be related to Reach but its two things i look at 475-480 reach, must have 630+ stack(im 6ft an always ride larges)
However i've ridden the trance x 27.5(the new one) and its got like 615 stack with 474 reach and it was pretty good, Did feel a little over the front but It made that bike super fun.
I demo'd the new Fuel ex the other day with i think 621 stack on a large with 485 reach and while i think it feels a little low it made the bike fun, About what i would call a good pedaling bike with being extra capable going down.
Post a reply to: Another geo thread - this time, related to stack height