Yes, it indeed looks like a Sommet on steroids! It was about time they make a new model, but although it looks way better, it’s still a horst-link alu frame, nothing new like a concept, just a refined version of the existing model…
Yes, it indeed looks like a Sommet on steroids! It was about time they make a new model, but although it looks way better, it’s still...
Yes, it indeed looks like a Sommet on steroids! It was about time they make a new model, but although it looks way better, it’s still a horst-link alu frame, nothing new like a concept, just a refined version of the existing model…
Pretty big departure from the catalog frame. The numbers are almost certainly quite different from geo perspective I’d imagine the kinematics are as well.
maybe a certain former vital staff member can spill some beans.
vitus DH prototypes and test mules from hardline here
https://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/prototype-vitus-downhill-bikes-hardline/vitus-downhill-prototype-bike-test-mule-0
vitus DH prototypes and test mules from hardline here
good job they've got the dropper installed for all those pedaly bits at hardline! but im not against a DH bike with a dropper and then a bigger cassette if i was to ever get another again
Yeah, the dropper, room for long dropper, and steep sta make it seem like it's a long travel enduro/park/freeride bike that's dual crown compatible. In the same vein as the rocky mountain slayer: a pedal able dh sled. It's good looking.
RE Intense and that boat piece they've been modifying and working on for over a year. All of that to put the shock right there when they can achieve all the same kinematics by just copying the current Demo or Sender. Or even do it like the new Madison Saracen proto. So much work and time trying to make that piece with CNC, drilling it out to make it lighter, now 3D printing it. I appreciate them trying to make something unique, but the Kinematics are achievable with far less faff, time and money. If they keep that design it's going to add unnecessary costs to their production bikes as well.
RE Intense and that boat piece they've been modifying and working on for over a year. All of that to put the shock right there when...
RE Intense and that boat piece they've been modifying and working on for over a year. All of that to put the shock right there when they can achieve all the same kinematics by just copying the current Demo or Sender. Or even do it like the new Madison Saracen proto. So much work and time trying to make that piece with CNC, drilling it out to make it lighter, now 3D printing it. I appreciate them trying to make something unique, but the Kinematics are achievable with far less faff, time and money. If they keep that design it's going to add unnecessary costs to their production bikes as well.
What about knowledge and they have gained over the last year. My bet is that their interpretation of how kinematics translates into real world performance has gone up massively. That they could have just copied a demo/sender (but added an idler) and gotten the same results is pretty short sighted imo. Not to mention that suspension kinematics is only part of the equation, what about chassis flex, and geo?
Same kinematics? The demo, sender, and saracen are not hp, no idler. Intense is hp and has an idler: Big difference. But I agree their prototyping/development methods don't seem to be conducted in the most efficient or rational manner.
Same kinematics? The demo, sender, and saracen are not hp, no idler. Intense is hp and has an idler: Big difference. But I agree their prototyping/development...
Same kinematics? The demo, sender, and saracen are not hp, no idler. Intense is hp and has an idler: Big difference. But I agree their prototyping/development methods don't seem to be conducted in the most efficient or rational manner.
Yes similar linkage layout, definitely not same kinematics, whatever that word means. I guess it’s a term meaning the overall affect suspension design on shock leverage ratio, anti squat, anti rise, and pedal kickback.
Concerning the CNC to 3D printing of the 6000 Al BB/shock tunnel, as someone who worked in manufacturing/machining for many years, I can think of a lot of scenarios where machining them first then transitioning to 3d printing was the logical or possibly only solution.
Pretty big departure from the catalog frame. The numbers are almost certainly quite different from geo perspective I’d imagine the kinematics are as well.
maybe a...
Pretty big departure from the catalog frame. The numbers are almost certainly quite different from geo perspective I’d imagine the kinematics are as well.
maybe a certain former vital staff member can spill some beans.
Without modeling it I can tell you it is almost certainly a higher starting leverage rate with a straighter progression (the current model is more of a linear-progressive-linear curve with a taper at the start and end), as well as higher anti-rise, presumably for more stable braking. Anti-squat might be at a similar level at sag, but will likely decrease at a lower rate compared to the current model since the instant center will move much less.
Same kinematics? The demo, sender, and saracen are not hp, no idler. Intense is hp and has an idler: Big difference. But I agree their prototyping/development...
Same kinematics? The demo, sender, and saracen are not hp, no idler. Intense is hp and has an idler: Big difference. But I agree their prototyping/development methods don't seem to be conducted in the most efficient or rational manner.
Yes similar linkage layout, definitely not same kinematics, whatever that word means. I guess it’s a term meaning the overall affect suspension design on shock leverage...
Yes similar linkage layout, definitely not same kinematics, whatever that word means. I guess it’s a term meaning the overall affect suspension design on shock leverage ratio, anti squat, anti rise, and pedal kickback.
Concerning the CNC to 3D printing of the 6000 Al BB/shock tunnel, as someone who worked in manufacturing/machining for many years, I can think of a lot of scenarios where machining them first then transitioning to 3d printing was the logical or possibly only solution.
From Steber's tweet, it also sounds like weldable 3D printed aluminum wasn't an option until now. Which would support your point that CNC then 3D printing was the only option. I think it's been awesome getting to see this product development process play out in real time out in the open. Lots of popcorn.
Pretty big departure from the catalog frame. The numbers are almost certainly quite different from geo perspective I’d imagine the kinematics are as well.
maybe a...
Pretty big departure from the catalog frame. The numbers are almost certainly quite different from geo perspective I’d imagine the kinematics are as well.
maybe a certain former vital staff member can spill some beans.
Without modeling it I can tell you it is almost certainly a higher starting leverage rate with a straighter progression (the current model is more of...
Without modeling it I can tell you it is almost certainly a higher starting leverage rate with a straighter progression (the current model is more of a linear-progressive-linear curve with a taper at the start and end), as well as higher anti-rise, presumably for more stable braking. Anti-squat might be at a similar level at sag, but will likely decrease at a lower rate compared to the current model since the instant center will move much less.
Which means what exactly? What can we expect from this new frame? It will pedal better, it will track the ground better, will it still be active during braking?
I am at Canadian DH Nationals this weekend and it appears the Norco team is on a different rig than the modified Range they have been running for however long now. Looks kind of similar from a distance but is definitely different, almost like a Range and a Commencal blend. I wasn't able to snap any but I am sure some pictures will get out there soon.
From Steber's tweet, it also sounds like weldable 3D printed aluminum wasn't an option until now. Which would support your point that CNC then 3D printing...
From Steber's tweet, it also sounds like weldable 3D printed aluminum wasn't an option until now. Which would support your point that CNC then 3D printing was the only option. I think it's been awesome getting to see this product development process play out in real time out in the open. Lots of popcorn.
Yea agreed such a great project. Hire the two best US DH racers, and give it your best shot at giving them the fastest gravity machine possible all while sharing the process with the fanboys and haters. Took some guts.
I am at Canadian DH Nationals this weekend and it appears the Norco team is on a different rig than the modified Range they have been...
I am at Canadian DH Nationals this weekend and it appears the Norco team is on a different rig than the modified Range they have been running for however long now. Looks kind of similar from a distance but is definitely different, almost like a Range and a Commencal blend. I wasn't able to snap any but I am sure some pictures will get out there soon.
From their own insta vid. Reminds me of a nukeproof if it went high pivot, and stuffed the linkage in the inside of the frame?
I am at Canadian DH Nationals this weekend and it appears the Norco team is on a different rig than the modified Range they have been...
I am at Canadian DH Nationals this weekend and it appears the Norco team is on a different rig than the modified Range they have been running for however long now. Looks kind of similar from a distance but is definitely different, almost like a Range and a Commencal blend. I wasn't able to snap any but I am sure some pictures will get out there soon.
I saw Kirk and the Norco crew testing this at Cypress on the DH tracks a few weeks/month-ish ago. Didn't get a close look but definitely not the Range w/ custom link. Curious to see more.
Okay, based on a pretty close approximation (distortion in the photos makes it a real pain to get accurately) here's what I can tell:
- Very progressive leverage rate; more similar to the Aurum HSP than the Range, so the rate of progression increases through the whole travel, but more progressive than Aurum before the sag point (people tended to sag very deep into the Aurum to make the most of the extremely progressive end-stroke because of the high-leverage, linear beginning of the stroke, so this might help a little but it is still probably somewhere between 35-40% progressive). **edited, probably closer to 25-30%, which is more reasonable for sure** It's definitely more suited to a coil shock.
- Low anti-squat (at whatever the sag range is, you're getting anti-squat range of <50% to <-100%) because of the very large idler concentric to the upper pivot. This also gives completely negative pedal kick-back in all gears, but this might make it a pain in the ass to pump (despite the progressive mid-stroke).
- Anti-rise follows the general shape of the leverage rate, with an increasingly steep decline from ~130% to ~10% through the travel, and somewhere around 100% at sag.
I think you can basically make no assumptions about what the kinematics look like. Similar to most 6 bar bike there is a lot of flexibility and sensitivity to the arrangement.
I would guess they want more control over packaging compared to a Range layout (where you are heavily constrained by the linkarm concentric to the BB ). The trade off is more links but it gives you a huge amount of control over leverage with only small changes to the links. Pretty nice for a factory team doing lots of development work.
Looks like a nice large 22 tooth idler as well which is always an improvement over the tiny idlers that are used so much on HP Horst link bikes. Here is a ballpark just to show the links overlayed; I am sure the team is bumping leverage or dropping progression a bit to get a little more travel.
I think you can basically make no assumptions about what the kinematics look like. Similar to most 6 bar bike there is a lot of flexibility...
I think you can basically make no assumptions about what the kinematics look like. Similar to most 6 bar bike there is a lot of flexibility and sensitivity to the arrangement.
I would guess they want more control over packaging compared to a Range layout (where you are heavily constrained by the linkarm concentric to the BB ). The trade off is more links but it gives you a huge amount of control over leverage with only small changes to the links. Pretty nice for a factory team doing lots of development work.
Looks like a nice large 22 tooth idler as well which is always an improvement over the tiny idlers that are used so much on HP Horst link bikes. Here is a ballpark just to show the links overlayed; I am sure the team is bumping leverage or dropping progression a bit to get a little more travel.
What program is this? I like that you can see the photo while editing the linkage, unlike Linkage X3
Yes, it indeed looks like a Sommet on steroids! It was about time they make a new model, but although it looks way better, it’s still a horst-link alu frame, nothing new like a concept, just a refined version of the existing model…
Pretty big departure from the catalog frame. The numbers are almost certainly quite different from geo perspective I’d imagine the kinematics are as well.
maybe a certain former vital staff member can spill some beans.
good job they've got the dropper installed for all those pedaly bits at hardline! but im not against a DH bike with a dropper and then a bigger cassette if i was to ever get another again
Yeah, the dropper, room for long dropper, and steep sta make it seem like it's a long travel enduro/park/freeride bike that's dual crown compatible. In the same vein as the rocky mountain slayer: a pedal able dh sled. It's good looking.
RE Intense and that boat piece they've been modifying and working on for over a year. All of that to put the shock right there when they can achieve all the same kinematics by just copying the current Demo or Sender. Or even do it like the new Madison Saracen proto. So much work and time trying to make that piece with CNC, drilling it out to make it lighter, now 3D printing it. I appreciate them trying to make something unique, but the Kinematics are achievable with far less faff, time and money. If they keep that design it's going to add unnecessary costs to their production bikes as well.
What about knowledge and they have gained over the last year. My bet is that their interpretation of how kinematics translates into real world performance has gone up massively. That they could have just copied a demo/sender (but added an idler) and gotten the same results is pretty short sighted imo. Not to mention that suspension kinematics is only part of the equation, what about chassis flex, and geo?
Same kinematics? The demo, sender, and saracen are not hp, no idler. Intense is hp and has an idler: Big difference. But I agree their prototyping/development methods don't seem to be conducted in the most efficient or rational manner.
Yes similar linkage layout, definitely not same kinematics, whatever that word means. I guess it’s a term meaning the overall affect suspension design on shock leverage ratio, anti squat, anti rise, and pedal kickback.
Concerning the CNC to 3D printing of the 6000 Al BB/shock tunnel, as someone who worked in manufacturing/machining for many years, I can think of a lot of scenarios where machining them first then transitioning to 3d printing was the logical or possibly only solution.
Without modeling it I can tell you it is almost certainly a higher starting leverage rate with a straighter progression (the current model is more of a linear-progressive-linear curve with a taper at the start and end), as well as higher anti-rise, presumably for more stable braking. Anti-squat might be at a similar level at sag, but will likely decrease at a lower rate compared to the current model since the instant center will move much less.
From Steber's tweet, it also sounds like weldable 3D printed aluminum wasn't an option until now. Which would support your point that CNC then 3D printing was the only option. I think it's been awesome getting to see this product development process play out in real time out in the open. Lots of popcorn.
Has anyone heard anything about an updated Commencal clash? Or does the new SX take over that travel bracket for now?
I think this one flew under the radar on PB. Trumpf forging of the HMS Intense.
EDIT: it’s an SLS not a “forging” so probably the same ones Steber is welding up.
Waow a new prototype, waaw another 4 bar linkage DH
Which means what exactly? What can we expect from this new frame? It will pedal better, it will track the ground better, will it still be active during braking?
Yes
From Vitus’ instagram account - some details about the proto!
I am at Canadian DH Nationals this weekend and it appears the Norco team is on a different rig than the modified Range they have been running for however long now. Looks kind of similar from a distance but is definitely different, almost like a Range and a Commencal blend. I wasn't able to snap any but I am sure some pictures will get out there soon.
Yea agreed such a great project. Hire the two best US DH racers, and give it your best shot at giving them the fastest gravity machine possible all while sharing the process with the fanboys and haters. Took some guts.
From their own insta vid. Reminds me of a nukeproof if it went high pivot, and stuffed the linkage in the inside of the frame?
I saw Kirk and the Norco crew testing this at Cypress on the DH tracks a few weeks/month-ish ago. Didn't get a close look but definitely not the Range w/ custom link. Curious to see more.
Norco DH bike was revealed on their homepage this morning. Full set of studio photos there.
Glad I saw this right before I was about to pixel-peep the video from the factory team.
here ya go
https://www.norco.com/
and a bit more
https://www.norco.com/now/bike-checks/new-norco-downhill-sled/
I bet this thing eats chunk for breakfast, lunch and dinner!
More fire to fuel the hate for Intense
Okay, based on a pretty close approximation (distortion in the photos makes it a real pain to get accurately) here's what I can tell:
- Very progressive leverage rate; more similar to the Aurum HSP than the Range, so the rate of progression increases through the whole travel, but more progressive than Aurum before the sag point (people tended to sag very deep into the Aurum to make the most of the extremely progressive end-stroke because of the high-leverage, linear beginning of the stroke, so this might help a little but it is still probably somewhere between 35-40% progressive). **edited, probably closer to 25-30%, which is more reasonable for sure** It's definitely more suited to a coil shock.
- Low anti-squat (at whatever the sag range is, you're getting anti-squat range of <50% to <-100%) because of the very large idler concentric to the upper pivot. This also gives completely negative pedal kick-back in all gears, but this might make it a pain in the ass to pump (despite the progressive mid-stroke).
- Anti-rise follows the general shape of the leverage rate, with an increasingly steep decline from ~130% to ~10% through the travel, and somewhere around 100% at sag.
I think you can basically make no assumptions about what the kinematics look like. Similar to most 6 bar bike there is a lot of flexibility and sensitivity to the arrangement.
I would guess they want more control over packaging compared to a Range layout (where you are heavily constrained by the linkarm concentric to the BB ). The trade off is more links but it gives you a huge amount of control over leverage with only small changes to the links. Pretty nice for a factory team doing lots of development work.
Looks like a nice large 22 tooth idler as well which is always an improvement over the tiny idlers that are used so much on HP Horst link bikes. Here is a ballpark just to show the links overlayed; I am sure the team is bumping leverage or dropping progression a bit to get a little more travel.
When I see bikes like that (and the new Pivot, Demo, intense etc.) it makes me appreciate what Neko is doing with Frameworks even more.
What program is this? I like that you can see the photo while editing the linkage, unlike Linkage X3
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