Seems crazy to me to have a talent pool like IFR does AND the ability to build frames in house, but only give the test mule...
Seems crazy to me to have a talent pool like IFR does AND the ability to build frames in house, but only give the test mule to Gwin. Once you’re designing the frame and building a single bike, surely it can’t cost much to build a couple more frames.
We don't know who has what based on a few spy shots. The photos might only be showing back to back testing. Who knows? But what if they're messing with us? It seems that Neco left on good terms to "Design his own frames." that look like a Session (Which he said they copied in his video.) Then they're seen riding maybe a Session bikes. And now Jeff has this "Blocked out." shot that looks a lot like both. Where does it all end? Is Neko the new R&D branch of Intense? Is Intense just copying Him? Or are they just both thinking that that Session is looking pretty good?
New compound or casing from Conti(kryptotal)?? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/02/07/12006/s1200_cathro.jpg[/img]
New compound or casing from Conti(kryptotal)??
I posted about this a few days ago, no solid info on what kryptotal is. There are trademarks for argotal and xynotal which were made at the same time. They have been testing what seems to be two different tread patterns which are pretty aggressive.
In my rabbit hole, I noticed that kryptotal was written on both of the tread patterns, so not sure what the final plan is. They've done a good job keeping the wraps on the bts of this one.
We don't know who has what based on a few spy shots. The photos might only be showing back to back testing. Who knows? But what...
We don't know who has what based on a few spy shots. The photos might only be showing back to back testing. Who knows? But what if they're messing with us? It seems that Neco left on good terms to "Design his own frames." that look like a Session (Which he said they copied in his video.) Then they're seen riding maybe a Session bikes. And now Jeff has this "Blocked out." shot that looks a lot like both. Where does it all end? Is Neko the new R&D branch of Intense? Is Intense just copying Him? Or are they just both thinking that that Session is looking pretty good?
Intense was marketing themselves pretty hard in being able to whip up new frames for their riders whenever one of them wanted change, if Neko left to build his own frames, does it sound like Intense was giving him what he wanted?
With all the detailed images that Jeff posted, I went ahead and did this render of what the bike could look like.
Just need to wait and see how close or off the bike I will be from this.
With all the detailed images that Jeff posted, I went ahead and did this render of what the bike could look like.
Just need to wait...
With all the detailed images that Jeff posted, I went ahead and did this render of what the bike could look like.
Just need to wait and see how close or off the bike I will be from this.
PH
If it really does end up looking like that then I’d love to see the look on neko mullalays face when it gets released. Intense basically is doing what he’s doing.
(which is copying trek… kinda)
If it really does end up looking like that then I’d love to see the look on neko mullalays face when it gets released. Intense basically...
If it really does end up looking like that then I’d love to see the look on neko mullalays face when it gets released. Intense basically is doing what he’s doing.
(which is copying trek… kinda)
Not sure about that: his program is about more than just the frame, all components - especially tyres - are what he thinks will make him the fastest.
Beyond that, even if the design is similar, Neko gets a frame exactly to his size, not sure if intense will really make custom sizes for each rider, or just take the overall bike fitted for AG and change the reach for other riders.
And finally, in his second video Neko suggests he might switch between a standard FSR or mid-high pivot depending on the track, which wouldn't be an option at Intense.
With all the detailed images that Jeff posted, I went ahead and did this render of what the bike could look like.
Just need to wait...
With all the detailed images that Jeff posted, I went ahead and did this render of what the bike could look like.
Just need to wait and see how close or off the bike I will be from this.
If it really does end up looking like that then I’d love to see the look on neko mullalays face when it gets released. Intense basically...
If it really does end up looking like that then I’d love to see the look on neko mullalays face when it gets released. Intense basically is doing what he’s doing.
(which is copying trek… kinda)
Well, not quite, Neko is one guy who is designing and building his own race bikes, Intense is a company who has built their reputation on being progressive and ahead of the game, but what they are doing with this bike and over the last couple years doesn't quite live up to that reputation IMO.
Maybe I am wrong but to me it has always looked like Intese are using very similar frame parts and tubing, so they might be limited in experimenting stuff by their supplies. Or maybe it's just their way to actually ease prototyping.
About copying what Neko's doing, there are about four proven winning DH bikes (not saying there ar just a few podium capable bikes, I'm just thinking about who won this year, correct me if I am wrong), so the chance of copying the same platform is quite large. VPP probably doesn't allow to "easily" get a rearward axle path which is something to experiment with for sure, while the new supreme is quite complex. That's leaves the Sender/Demo and the Session.
Without trying to sound disrespectful, considering Jeff got Cero involved with the last kinematic updates, I'm not sure Jeff does the designs himself, I suspect his strong point is in the fabricating and prototyping of the bikes.
To do a VPP HP design with counter rotating links to maintain the brand aesthetic is not crazy difficult, but in their case, it would likely require paying someone who really knows what they are doing to design it properly, and it isn't likely to be something they could patent either.
The 4-bar horst link design they seem to be going with is a lot easier to prototype and test before investing in something like the VPP HP version. I'm also curios that Santa Cruz hasn't done any VPP HP prototype that I'm aware of yet, you would think the Syndicate would at least want to test the idea?
I think a major reason for the delayed product cycles at intense is they lost their chief engineer in a bike accident. Small companies often take time to recover from losing key personnel.
Neko does not appear to be involved with intense at all at this point. He mentioned being a part of intense testing frames with Aaron and speaking both of those guys had their best results on a session it isn’t too hard of a coincidence they came to a similiar conclusion. I also believe going by his last frameworks episode neko is leaning towards a standard pivot 4 bar where as intense seems committed to hp at this point.
John hall seems to have taken a new role where he will have a bigger role in frame devolopment with intense. My guess is Jeff is still welding prototypes and they will use outside teams like cesar to carbonize their designs for production. But at least with the dh bike it seems the numbers are going to mostly be in Aaron’s and john’s hands now.
I posted about this a few days ago, no solid info on what kryptotal is. There are trademarks for argotal and xynotal which were made at...
I posted about this a few days ago, no solid info on what kryptotal is. There are trademarks for argotal and xynotal which were made at the same time. They have been testing what seems to be two different tread patterns which are pretty aggressive.
In my rabbit hole, I noticed that kryptotal was written on both of the tread patterns, so not sure what the final plan is. They've done a good job keeping the wraps on the bts of this one.
Ben also commented on Instagram that the new Conti tyres are actually very good. Now if they could just release them and not at a mad price and have good compunds and casings.... we will see though. I doubt they will compete with Schwalbe/Maxxis who seem to have they tyre market sorted.
I posted about this a few days ago, no solid info on what kryptotal is. There are trademarks for argotal and xynotal which were made at...
I posted about this a few days ago, no solid info on what kryptotal is. There are trademarks for argotal and xynotal which were made at the same time. They have been testing what seems to be two different tread patterns which are pretty aggressive.
In my rabbit hole, I noticed that kryptotal was written on both of the tread patterns, so not sure what the final plan is. They've done a good job keeping the wraps on the bts of this one.
Ben also commented on Instagram that the new Conti tyres are actually very good. Now if they could just release them and not at a mad...
Ben also commented on Instagram that the new Conti tyres are actually very good. Now if they could just release them and not at a mad price and have good compunds and casings.... we will see though. I doubt they will compete with Schwalbe/Maxxis who seem to have they tyre market sorted.
I found the current Conti tires to be a quality product and the black chili compound worked great. They were a bit lacking in aggressive treads which is what im hoping this remedies. I actually switched over because thicker casing maxis tires were ridiculously difficult to mount or unmount on my bontrager wheels.
Without trying to sound disrespectful, considering Jeff got Cero involved with the last kinematic updates, I'm not sure Jeff does the designs himself, I suspect his...
Without trying to sound disrespectful, considering Jeff got Cero involved with the last kinematic updates, I'm not sure Jeff does the designs himself, I suspect his strong point is in the fabricating and prototyping of the bikes.
To do a VPP HP design with counter rotating links to maintain the brand aesthetic is not crazy difficult, but in their case, it would likely require paying someone who really knows what they are doing to design it properly, and it isn't likely to be something they could patent either.
The 4-bar horst link design they seem to be going with is a lot easier to prototype and test before investing in something like the VPP HP version. I'm also curios that Santa Cruz hasn't done any VPP HP prototype that I'm aware of yet, you would think the Syndicate would at least want to test the idea?
Could see them trying the 4-bar Horst Link, side-by-side with the the current proto bike they have to see if it's really fast enough to dumping the money to hire an engineer to develop the kinematics of a HP-VPP.
-Neko already knows what Intense is developing. He helped them find the direction last year when they tested all the competitors bikes. He's also been riding with Gwin recently and has maintained a friendship with him. So he knows exactly what Jeff is welding up at Intense.
-The Intense bike will likely look just like Neko's bike and obviously the session. The render above is great. Although that long rocker link is a throwback in the early 2000's haha.
-In the Vital podcast with Gwin a year or so ago, it's clear that one reason he joined Intense was so that he could get rapid frame development. That never materialized and he was clearly frustrated with that. I'm assuming that in his contract renewal he demanded new frames and development.
-Assuming that while Neko thought they may eventually see new frames, he thought it was safer to go out on his own and get EXACTLY what he wanted and as has been pointed out many times, could get on tires that put him on the same playing field as the rest of the racers. Meanwhile Gwin, who's riding for a large bike brand is getting on his prototype bike months after Neko and running Vee tires, which may prove to be good, but again only have 1-2 main DH tire tread patterns to choose from vs. 5+ at Maxxis. Crazy that Neko is probably more comfortable and setup with his setup then Gwin is right now.
-As has been mentioned, it's possible they could still use the VPP linkage with the high pivot but it would take more advanced engineering.
-Speaking of that, I'm sure Santa Cruz was testing some high pivot V10s at their camp last week. Greg is likely set on the existing VPP V10 as it's suited him well for so long. But they may be doing testing or full on new gen development with the new guys and gal coming onto the team. Everyone has either gone high pivot or is experimenting. Specialized experimented last winter. Mondraker (Laurie's previous team) is now running/testing HP, etc.
Mondraker is testing out an idler. The frame layout appears to be exactly as it was, meaning a more standard, forwardish axle path.
What did Specialized test? An idler or an actual high-ish pivot?
EDIT: found it, it appears the demo did have a different frame and a higher main pivot. The Mondraker just has an idler to lower the pedal kickback it appears.
Even though high pivots are touted as be all, end all, there are riders saying it's not exactly like that. QED, Martin Maes, though for enduro, and you have the world champion, the GOAT, running a standard forward axle path bike.
It might just turn out some people like a more rearward axle path while other don't as a rearward axle path might be messing with the balance, weight distribution and the like while going through the travel. A forward rear axle path doesn't do that.
Plus, an important point, regarding the kinematics, the current crop of high-ish pivots (a-la session) likely brought the axle path to a just slightly more rearward path compared to 26" bikes. With the transition to larger wheels, to not get a ton of pedal kickback, the axle path had to become more and more forward due tot he BB being lower in regards to the axle height.
On that note, how is BB drop measured on a mullet bike?
Is that an Assegai in the title shot? I'm not up to speed with Vee/Kenda treads so can't judge it, but it looks soooooooo much like an Assegai. The knobs, the number of them, the gap tot he side knobs, the curvature of the profile, etc.
https://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/member/Snowy-SoCal-Downhill-Laps-with-Aaron-Gwin,39685/Jason-Schroeder,6993
Is that an Assegai in the title shot? I'm not up to speed with Vee/Kenda treads so can't judge it, but it looks soooooooo much...
Is that an Assegai in the title shot? I'm not up to speed with Vee/Kenda treads so can't judge it, but it looks soooooooo much like an Assegai. The knobs, the number of them, the gap tot he side knobs, the curvature of the profile, etc.
must be a vee tire attack, pretty similar to the assegai, but has some turned around L-lugs on the side.
https://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/member/Snowy-SoCal-Downhill-Laps-with-Aaron-Gwin,39685/Jason-Schroeder,6993
Is that an Assegai in the title shot? I'm not up to speed with Vee/Kenda treads so can't judge it, but it looks soooooooo much...
Is that an Assegai in the title shot? I'm not up to speed with Vee/Kenda treads so can't judge it, but it looks soooooooo much like an Assegai. The knobs, the number of them, the gap tot he side knobs, the curvature of the profile, etc.
It looks pretty similar to the Kenda prototypes that Joe Breeden was running at Kicking Horse last summer to me.
I posted about this a few days ago, no solid info on what kryptotal is. There are trademarks for argotal and xynotal which were made at...
I posted about this a few days ago, no solid info on what kryptotal is. There are trademarks for argotal and xynotal which were made at the same time. They have been testing what seems to be two different tread patterns which are pretty aggressive.
In my rabbit hole, I noticed that kryptotal was written on both of the tread patterns, so not sure what the final plan is. They've done a good job keeping the wraps on the bts of this one.
Looking forward to some details on Jackson Goldstones bike, like the size. I think the "trying a large" post was just for fun. How tall is he now? Curious since my kid and I are not tall, asked on the 'gram but no reply.
Looking forward to some details on Jackson Goldstones bike, like the size. I think the "trying a large" post was just for fun. How tall is...
Looking forward to some details on Jackson Goldstones bike, like the size. I think the "trying a large" post was just for fun. How tall is he now? Curious since my kid and I are not tall, asked on the 'gram but no reply.
The L size V10 has a reach of 460, the same as my M sender which firs me (175cm) perfectly. They mentioned he was on a shorter stem and maybe a reach adjuster set to a shorter position. Nothing surprising there.
Mondraker is testing out an idler. The frame layout appears to be exactly as it was, meaning a more standard, forwardish axle path.
What did Specialized...
Mondraker is testing out an idler. The frame layout appears to be exactly as it was, meaning a more standard, forwardish axle path.
What did Specialized test? An idler or an actual high-ish pivot?
EDIT: found it, it appears the demo did have a different frame and a higher main pivot. The Mondraker just has an idler to lower the pedal kickback it appears.
Even though high pivots are touted as be all, end all, there are riders saying it's not exactly like that. QED, Martin Maes, though for enduro, and you have the world champion, the GOAT, running a standard forward axle path bike.
It might just turn out some people like a more rearward axle path while other don't as a rearward axle path might be messing with the balance, weight distribution and the like while going through the travel. A forward rear axle path doesn't do that.
Plus, an important point, regarding the kinematics, the current crop of high-ish pivots (a-la session) likely brought the axle path to a just slightly more rearward path compared to 26" bikes. With the transition to larger wheels, to not get a ton of pedal kickback, the axle path had to become more and more forward due tot he BB being lower in regards to the axle height.
On that note, how is BB drop measured on a mullet bike?
>the current crop of high-ish pivots (a-la session) likely brought the axle path to a just slightly more rearward path compared to 26" bikes
That may be true for 29ers, but most racers are now running mullets. If you measure BB drop from the rear, 650b wheel, its a pretty minor difference from 26" bikes with a fixed BB height
https://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/member/Snowy-SoCal-Downhill-Laps-with-Aaron-Gwin,39685/Jason-Schroeder,6993
Is that an Assegai in the title shot? I'm not up to speed with Vee/Kenda treads so can't judge it, but it looks soooooooo much...
Is that an Assegai in the title shot? I'm not up to speed with Vee/Kenda treads so can't judge it, but it looks soooooooo much like an Assegai. The knobs, the number of them, the gap tot he side knobs, the curvature of the profile, etc.
As has been pointed out, it's almost certainly the Vee Gravity Attack. You can see the little dimple in the center knob that the Vee tire has vs. Maxxis.
https://rideontool.com/
I'd like to see that linkage...
In my rabbit hole, I noticed that kryptotal was written on both of the tread patterns, so not sure what the final plan is. They've done a good job keeping the wraps on the bts of this one.
Just need to wait and see how close or off the bike I will be from this.
PH
(which is copying trek… kinda)
Beyond that, even if the design is similar, Neko gets a frame exactly to his size, not sure if intense will really make custom sizes for each rider, or just take the overall bike fitted for AG and change the reach for other riders.
And finally, in his second video Neko suggests he might switch between a standard FSR or mid-high pivot depending on the track, which wouldn't be an option at Intense.
About copying what Neko's doing, there are about four proven winning DH bikes (not saying there ar just a few podium capable bikes, I'm just thinking about who won this year, correct me if I am wrong), so the chance of copying the same platform is quite large. VPP probably doesn't allow to "easily" get a rearward axle path which is something to experiment with for sure, while the new supreme is quite complex. That's leaves the Sender/Demo and the Session.
To do a VPP HP design with counter rotating links to maintain the brand aesthetic is not crazy difficult, but in their case, it would likely require paying someone who really knows what they are doing to design it properly, and it isn't likely to be something they could patent either.
The 4-bar horst link design they seem to be going with is a lot easier to prototype and test before investing in something like the VPP HP version. I'm also curios that Santa Cruz hasn't done any VPP HP prototype that I'm aware of yet, you would think the Syndicate would at least want to test the idea?
Neko does not appear to be involved with intense at all at this point. He mentioned being a part of intense testing frames with Aaron and speaking both of those guys had their best results on a session it isn’t too hard of a coincidence they came to a similiar conclusion. I also believe going by his last frameworks episode neko is leaning towards a standard pivot 4 bar where as intense seems committed to hp at this point.
John hall seems to have taken a new role where he will have a bigger role in frame devolopment with intense. My guess is Jeff is still welding prototypes and they will use outside teams like cesar to carbonize their designs for production. But at least with the dh bike it seems the numbers are going to mostly be in Aaron’s and john’s hands now.
-Neko already knows what Intense is developing. He helped them find the direction last year when they tested all the competitors bikes. He's also been riding with Gwin recently and has maintained a friendship with him. So he knows exactly what Jeff is welding up at Intense.
-The Intense bike will likely look just like Neko's bike and obviously the session. The render above is great. Although that long rocker link is a throwback in the early 2000's haha.
-In the Vital podcast with Gwin a year or so ago, it's clear that one reason he joined Intense was so that he could get rapid frame development. That never materialized and he was clearly frustrated with that. I'm assuming that in his contract renewal he demanded new frames and development.
-Assuming that while Neko thought they may eventually see new frames, he thought it was safer to go out on his own and get EXACTLY what he wanted and as has been pointed out many times, could get on tires that put him on the same playing field as the rest of the racers. Meanwhile Gwin, who's riding for a large bike brand is getting on his prototype bike months after Neko and running Vee tires, which may prove to be good, but again only have 1-2 main DH tire tread patterns to choose from vs. 5+ at Maxxis. Crazy that Neko is probably more comfortable and setup with his setup then Gwin is right now.
-As has been mentioned, it's possible they could still use the VPP linkage with the high pivot but it would take more advanced engineering.
-Speaking of that, I'm sure Santa Cruz was testing some high pivot V10s at their camp last week. Greg is likely set on the existing VPP V10 as it's suited him well for so long. But they may be doing testing or full on new gen development with the new guys and gal coming onto the team. Everyone has either gone high pivot or is experimenting. Specialized experimented last winter. Mondraker (Laurie's previous team) is now running/testing HP, etc.
What did Specialized test? An idler or an actual high-ish pivot?
EDIT: found it, it appears the demo did have a different frame and a higher main pivot. The Mondraker just has an idler to lower the pedal kickback it appears.
Even though high pivots are touted as be all, end all, there are riders saying it's not exactly like that. QED, Martin Maes, though for enduro, and you have the world champion, the GOAT, running a standard forward axle path bike.
It might just turn out some people like a more rearward axle path while other don't as a rearward axle path might be messing with the balance, weight distribution and the like while going through the travel. A forward rear axle path doesn't do that.
Plus, an important point, regarding the kinematics, the current crop of high-ish pivots (a-la session) likely brought the axle path to a just slightly more rearward path compared to 26" bikes. With the transition to larger wheels, to not get a ton of pedal kickback, the axle path had to become more and more forward due tot he BB being lower in regards to the axle height.
On that note, how is BB drop measured on a mullet bike?
Is that an Assegai in the title shot? I'm not up to speed with Vee/Kenda treads so can't judge it, but it looks soooooooo much like an Assegai. The knobs, the number of them, the gap tot he side knobs, the curvature of the profile, etc.
That may be true for 29ers, but most racers are now running mullets. If you measure BB drop from the rear, 650b wheel, its a pretty minor difference from 26" bikes with a fixed BB height
In other news, any updates on when Push is going to release their own fork?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7-S0YZM67Q
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