Got a good look at the chromag full suspension bike yesterday. Steel frame, alloy chain and seat stays. Not sure on the suspension and the guy wasn’t too keen on me taking pics but it was red so probably very fast.
He said they should be out pretty soon, full builds available from them but no info on pricing.
I can't tell if the wheel and brake mounts are attached to the upper 'seatstay' link or the lower 'chainstay' link - upper would mean it's...
I can't tell if the wheel and brake mounts are attached to the upper 'seatstay' link or the lower 'chainstay' link - upper would mean it's a high single pivot with a linkage driving the shock, while lower would be a sort of vertically flipped Horst link like the Antidote Darkmatter. Maybe the dropouts could be switched between the two types somehow? It would change the kinematics though, especially anti-rise and axle path.
It is a single pivot. The axel and brake mounts are attached to the seatstay. You can see that the seatstay forks over the the chainstay...
It is a single pivot. The axel and brake mounts are attached to the seatstay. You can see that the seatstay forks over the the chainstay at the pivot which means the axel and brake mount couldn't attach to the chainstay.
"In fact, that’s why you can see the bottle mounts in all those highly-analyzed video stills after the DH proto debuted at Crankworx last summer!"
No...
"In fact, that’s why you can see the bottle mounts in all those highly-analyzed video stills after the DH proto debuted at Crankworx last summer!"
No one believed me.
The only factor that I'm surprised about is the custom links. Otherwise it was quite well known it's a new Range from late summer (there was a catalogue floating around for 2021 mid to late summer with it being billed as the Range, but had a lot of TBDs). What I thought is that they just put a dual crown fork on it.
I think the new Range is a great looking bike and it sounds like it performs well too from the early reviews. The prices are a bit unexpected and the weight does seem at least 2lbs heavier than it should be. But I guess the ability to change the dropouts and link and thrown on the dual crown for a WC ready DH bike is pretty nifty! I hope more companies look at this as a possible solution to the dropping sales of DH bikes. It would suck (imo) if all the race bikes end up becoming one off prototypes that never see production.
I think the new Range is a great looking bike and it sounds like it performs well too from the early reviews. The prices are a...
I think the new Range is a great looking bike and it sounds like it performs well too from the early reviews. The prices are a bit unexpected and the weight does seem at least 2lbs heavier than it should be. But I guess the ability to change the dropouts and link and thrown on the dual crown for a WC ready DH bike is pretty nifty! I hope more companies look at this as a possible solution to the dropping sales of DH bikes. It would suck (imo) if all the race bikes end up becoming one off prototypes that never see production.
*glares at Intense's "prototype" that has been raced for like two years now*
I personally really love having DH bikes floating around, they're great fun even if I don't own one. Renting or borrowing one for a day is great.
Norco's idea for making one frame with multiple linkages and whatnot to convert from superenduro (remember that category?) into DH makes so much sense for producer AND consumer. Hope to see it more
Product designer says, "Look at this new wonder material! It's stronger and lighter!" Warranty guy sees the number of expensive frames coming back broken and tells...
Product designer says, "Look at this new wonder material! It's stronger and lighter!" Warranty guy sees the number of expensive frames coming back broken and tells the engineers to thicken up the carbon layers. Then this ^.
Meanwhile at another company they realize that they've finally gotten their alloy frames to stop breaking through proper heat treating processes. Warranty guy says "Keep up the good work!" And they do and their bikes are lighter and cheaper.
FWIW, carbon for mountain bikes (except XC maybe) is the biggest mistake ever. Bikes are not a simple product to make out of composites (complex shapes and details, bearing mounts, two parts to the rear triangle, etc.), carbon or any composite is not a simple material to work with as it's not isotropic, the industry can't afford to do proper engineering on the product, as the numbers, price and lifecycles of the final products are not at a level that would make composites a worthwhile choice of material, etc.
I am speaking out of my butt here, haven't thrown around any actual numbers (based on experience designing frames), but even without the recyclability and sustainability factor and the rock strikes and the like (a major consideration with MTBs) carbon just seems wrong to me.
Due to the shapes and all the aero it does make sense for road bikes, but yeah, I'll stick to aluminium with my MTB.
Regarding heavy frame weights... Yes, it's a thing for sure. And it's obviously because companies don't want endless (or any) warranty claims. Also, it's cheaper to design and produce a heavier carbon frame. Less engineering, less man hours for layup, etc. So they're pushing the limits of what customers will accept for weight. Also, in the case of the Range, it IS a world cup downhill frame. So it's built burly enough for that, but can be pedaled in a 170mm variant.
If it explains some things, the way I heard it's done is hire a company to design the suspension layout, hire an industrial designer to draw up the frame shapes, send the (shell) 3D models to Asia, where your frame supplier does all the rest. Which they do by feel, make a prototype, test it, if it holds up, it's golden, if it cracks, strengthen the cracked part.
Hire a guy from a competitor, where he says they do X in a Y fashion? Do the same thing! Why? Clearly it works for them!
There's a reason Unnos cost 5000 € per frame and only come in one size. Because they are properly engineered. That also makes them kinda unsustainable.
If it explains some things, the way I heard it's done is hire a company to design the suspension layout, hire an industrial designer to draw...
If it explains some things, the way I heard it's done is hire a company to design the suspension layout, hire an industrial designer to draw up the frame shapes, send the (shell) 3D models to Asia, where your frame supplier does all the rest. Which they do by feel, make a prototype, test it, if it holds up, it's golden, if it cracks, strengthen the cracked part.
Hire a guy from a competitor, where he says they do X in a Y fashion? Do the same thing! Why? Clearly it works for them!
There's a reason Unnos cost 5000 € per frame and only come in one size. Because they are properly engineered. That also makes them kinda unsustainable.
Spot on here. As I've said in this thread before there are likely only 3 brands in the MTB game that have carbon engineering teams in house. Teams. Not just a guy who is an engineer with some carbon training and works in Solidworks. They are: Scott, Specialized and Trek. Which is why they all have pretty light frames (or very light frames). In the case of Specialized and Trek, internal frame storage and in the case of Scott, a shock inside their Spark frame.
I think the new Range is a great looking bike and it sounds like it performs well too from the early reviews. The prices are a...
I think the new Range is a great looking bike and it sounds like it performs well too from the early reviews. The prices are a bit unexpected and the weight does seem at least 2lbs heavier than it should be. But I guess the ability to change the dropouts and link and thrown on the dual crown for a WC ready DH bike is pretty nifty! I hope more companies look at this as a possible solution to the dropping sales of DH bikes. It would suck (imo) if all the race bikes end up becoming one off prototypes that never see production.
I’d happily ride a 38 lb enduro bike if it means I never have to warranty my frame and it doesn’t feel like an epileptic pool noodle every time I push into a berm.
I don't have a problem with a heavier bike, they carry more speed downhill and are more stable in the air and I really don't care about sprinting uphills.
I assume he is referring to the oil not lubing the seals as much as if it was flipped 180 degrees. At first I thought he was saying that running it horizontal is better...
I assume he is referring to the oil not lubing the seals as much as if it was flipped 180 degrees. At first I thought he...
I assume he is referring to the oil not lubing the seals as much as if it was flipped 180 degrees. At first I thought he was saying that running it horizontal is better...
Still: why?
Inside a shock, there is oil sloshed around constantly, so things are properly lubed. The oil is usually very thick to stick to the surfaces as well.
And the shock is not "upside down". It is right side up. The piggy is not on the air can side as on Float X or Super Deluxe. They are mounted the same way regardless.
I assume he is referring to the oil not lubing the seals as much as if it was flipped 180 degrees. At first I thought he...
I assume he is referring to the oil not lubing the seals as much as if it was flipped 180 degrees. At first I thought he was saying that running it horizontal is better...
Still: why? :) Inside a shock, there is oil sloshed around constantly, so things are properly lubed. The oil is usually very thick to stick to...
Still: why?
Inside a shock, there is oil sloshed around constantly, so things are properly lubed. The oil is usually very thick to stick to the surfaces as well.
And the shock is not "upside down". It is right side up. The piggy is not on the air can side as on Float X or Super Deluxe. They are mounted the same way regardless.
I agree with your logic, and I don't have any evidence to support this but I believe the general idea is that if it was flipped 180 degrees, due to gravity, the oil in the canister would be sitting constantly by the seals, similar to an upside down fork. Kind of like how I've heard and experienced that if you store your bike upside down, the fork is slightly more sensitive off the top (temporarily), I assume due to the foam rings holding more oil and lubing the stanchions better... theoretically...
I think the new Range is a great looking bike and it sounds like it performs well too from the early reviews. The prices are a...
I think the new Range is a great looking bike and it sounds like it performs well too from the early reviews. The prices are a bit unexpected and the weight does seem at least 2lbs heavier than it should be. But I guess the ability to change the dropouts and link and thrown on the dual crown for a WC ready DH bike is pretty nifty! I hope more companies look at this as a possible solution to the dropping sales of DH bikes. It would suck (imo) if all the race bikes end up becoming one off prototypes that never see production.
*glares at Intense's "prototype" that has been raced for like two years now*
I personally really love having DH bikes floating around, they're great fun even...
*glares at Intense's "prototype" that has been raced for like two years now*
I personally really love having DH bikes floating around, they're great fun even if I don't own one. Renting or borrowing one for a day is great.
Norco's idea for making one frame with multiple linkages and whatnot to convert from superenduro (remember that category?) into DH makes so much sense for producer AND consumer. Hope to see it more
I'm with ya, used to always own a DH and trail bike and did lots of Whistler bike park plus some shuttling... young kids at home in the city now means not enough of that to justify the big rig... but I love to rent a V10 in Whistler a couple times a year cuz it's so damn fun.
Wonder if they will release the DH linkage and drop-outs... but I guess you'd likely need a longer stroke shock as well. Lots of stuff to buy to swap over, worth it for a trip but bit of a pain to do day to day.
I agree with your logic, and I don't have any evidence to support this but I believe the general idea is that if it was flipped...
I agree with your logic, and I don't have any evidence to support this but I believe the general idea is that if it was flipped 180 degrees, due to gravity, the oil in the canister would be sitting constantly by the seals, similar to an upside down fork. Kind of like how I've heard and experienced that if you store your bike upside down, the fork is slightly more sensitive off the top (temporarily), I assume due to the foam rings holding more oil and lubing the stanchions better... theoretically...
I also agree with your logic. But it seems the theory may or may not apply to the reality
At least not in my experience. Since shocks are more compact, it is easier to get oil to the top than in a long fork, where the oil bath is faaaar down from the seals.
I agree with your logic, and I don't have any evidence to support this but I believe the general idea is that if it was flipped...
I agree with your logic, and I don't have any evidence to support this but I believe the general idea is that if it was flipped 180 degrees, due to gravity, the oil in the canister would be sitting constantly by the seals, similar to an upside down fork. Kind of like how I've heard and experienced that if you store your bike upside down, the fork is slightly more sensitive off the top (temporarily), I assume due to the foam rings holding more oil and lubing the stanchions better... theoretically...
I also agree with your logic. But it seems the theory may or may not apply to the reality :) At least not in my experience...
I also agree with your logic. But it seems the theory may or may not apply to the reality
At least not in my experience. Since shocks are more compact, it is easier to get oil to the top than in a long fork, where the oil bath is faaaar down from the seals.
I agree. It would be an interesting topic for someone like vorsprung or another suspension company to do a little research and testing on to get some real world data.
About upside down shocks...In a word, gravity. Gravity causes oil to sit on top of the seal, creating better sealing and lubing the sliding surface. When the air can/seal are above the exposed stanchion, gravity causes dust and dirt to drop off the stanchion. When oriented as pictured, dust, grit, mud, water and other contaminants accumulate on the seal. That's why it's a good idea to take a rag to your fork slider top/seal head after (maybe even during) each ride, even if you don't clean the whole bike. Also why older motos have fork boots and USD forks don't use them.
My Giant Reign was just over 14 kg (in aluminium) and didn't require any warrantying, soooo...
Well, Specialized handling their carbon, what about the shitstorm that is the current Enduro?
Not sure about Scott (I think they do quite a bit of composite work in Switzerland too), Trek does certain frames in the US, there's Unno (which is properly anal composite engineering, Cesar did say he'd never do it again if he knew how hard it would be), Santa Cruz has a strong composite lab in the US AND owns the asian factory where their frames are manufactured, etc.
Maybe another wrench in the spokes of carbon bikes, I was told (a friend of a friend kind thing, where the guy works as an aerospace composite engineer with one of the big ones for commercial airplanes) that the carbon used for consumer and automotive stuff is anything but top grade. As in he'd never ride anything 5+ years old, be it a mountain bike, a road bike, carbon rims or an old racecar. I was told the resins used in these kinds of products aren't as good (expensive, of course) as they are in aerospace products and that inserts corroding is also a big issue. These comments came off a facebook video of a guy riding over a bump with his old road bike and the (carbon) wheel basically exploding. And the insert part was directed at for example engine mount inserts in the monocoques of old F1 cars, that are still ran in anger (Ferrari even has a Corse Clienti program where, with enough money, you can buy and run an ex-Schumacher car in their events, setup around the world).
Yeah, I know, Aluminium is not forever, as it doesn't have a fatigue limit (same goes for composites though...), so for a forever kind of bike, go Ti or steel.
Joe McEwan (founder of Starling cycles) is by trade a composites engineer in the aerospace industry. He produces steel bikes, as he finds it better for bikes. He is a strong advocate for carbon rims, though.
I guess it was a toss up between whether the firebird would follow the new design of the trail bikes or get a scaled down version of the phoenix platform. I guess now that we know, I would expect the phoenix to be the next bike updated to this vertical shock design.
I don't see as big of a reason for it. With these 'smaller' bikes having the option of mounting a bottle inside the frame is a must for a lot of riders. A lot of DH riders (park rats and the like) would like to see that option too, but not to the level that want is present on pedalable bikes. Then another factor is longer stroke shocks that are used for DH bikes. They can be mounted vertically, we've seen that lots of times, but still, it's easier to vertically mount a 50 mm stroke shock with a sub 200 mm ETE (trunnion) than it is a 75mm stroke 225(TR)/250 mm ETE shock.
I do remember that supposedly the 27,5" Phoenix required an air shock to add stiffness to the bike, supposedly a coil shock would fail much too quickly on that bike or something along those lines.
I don't see as big of a reason for it. With these 'smaller' bikes having the option of mounting a bottle inside the frame is a...
I don't see as big of a reason for it. With these 'smaller' bikes having the option of mounting a bottle inside the frame is a must for a lot of riders. A lot of DH riders (park rats and the like) would like to see that option too, but not to the level that want is present on pedalable bikes. Then another factor is longer stroke shocks that are used for DH bikes. They can be mounted vertically, we've seen that lots of times, but still, it's easier to vertically mount a 50 mm stroke shock with a sub 200 mm ETE (trunnion) than it is a 75mm stroke 225(TR)/250 mm ETE shock.
I do remember that supposedly the 27,5" Phoenix required an air shock to add stiffness to the bike, supposedly a coil shock would fail much too quickly on that bike or something along those lines.
Yep, Pivot's said the linkage on the current Firebird and Phoenix transmits too much side loading for it to work well with coil shocks, since they generally have smaller shaft diameters. The newer layout on the Switchblade, Mach 6, etc. has a pretty similar shape to the leverage curve from what I've seen, but is compatible with both types of shocks and frees up more space for a bottle.
few pages back I posted the screenshot from the pivot suspension guide saying firebird is 205x65 trunnion mount. Pretty clear as day that's a long stroke (ie 65mm) trunnion mounted shock. If it's not the firebird Johan Barelli can have one of my balls and have 4 of them!
He said they should be out pretty soon, full builds available from them but no info on pricing.
I personally really love having DH bikes floating around, they're great fun even if I don't own one. Renting or borrowing one for a day is great.
Norco's idea for making one frame with multiple linkages and whatnot to convert from superenduro (remember that category?) into DH makes so much sense for producer AND consumer. Hope to see it more
I am speaking out of my butt here, haven't thrown around any actual numbers (based on experience designing frames), but even without the recyclability and sustainability factor and the rock strikes and the like (a major consideration with MTBs) carbon just seems wrong to me.
Due to the shapes and all the aero it does make sense for road bikes, but yeah, I'll stick to aluminium with my MTB.
Hire a guy from a competitor, where he says they do X in a Y fashion? Do the same thing! Why? Clearly it works for them!
There's a reason Unnos cost 5000 € per frame and only come in one size. Because they are properly engineered. That also makes them kinda unsustainable.
And the shock is not "upside down". It is right side up. The piggy is not on the air can side as on Float X or Super Deluxe. They are mounted the same way regardless.
Wonder if they will release the DH linkage and drop-outs... but I guess you'd likely need a longer stroke shock as well. Lots of stuff to buy to swap over, worth it for a trip but bit of a pain to do day to day.
Well, Specialized handling their carbon, what about the shitstorm that is the current Enduro?
Not sure about Scott (I think they do quite a bit of composite work in Switzerland too), Trek does certain frames in the US, there's Unno (which is properly anal composite engineering, Cesar did say he'd never do it again if he knew how hard it would be), Santa Cruz has a strong composite lab in the US AND owns the asian factory where their frames are manufactured, etc.
Maybe another wrench in the spokes of carbon bikes, I was told (a friend of a friend kind thing, where the guy works as an aerospace composite engineer with one of the big ones for commercial airplanes) that the carbon used for consumer and automotive stuff is anything but top grade. As in he'd never ride anything 5+ years old, be it a mountain bike, a road bike, carbon rims or an old racecar. I was told the resins used in these kinds of products aren't as good (expensive, of course) as they are in aerospace products and that inserts corroding is also a big issue. These comments came off a facebook video of a guy riding over a bump with his old road bike and the (carbon) wheel basically exploding. And the insert part was directed at for example engine mount inserts in the monocoques of old F1 cars, that are still ran in anger (Ferrari even has a Corse Clienti program where, with enough money, you can buy and run an ex-Schumacher car in their events, setup around the world).
Yeah, I know, Aluminium is not forever, as it doesn't have a fatigue limit (same goes for composites though...), so for a forever kind of bike, go Ti or steel.
Is this offtopic?
I do remember that supposedly the 27,5" Phoenix required an air shock to add stiffness to the bike, supposedly a coil shock would fail much too quickly on that bike or something along those lines.
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