I'd be curious to know if anyone here has any significant riding time on Ceramic Speed's Pivot Bearings (https://ceramicspeed.com/collections/pivot-bearings). I first learned about them at Eurobike several years ago, but haven't made the investment. The cost is obviously eye-catching, but I think an argument could be made for the value if one is keeping their bike for longer than 2-3 years. Think of a bike like a Norco Range that has stacks of bearings that should probably be replaced every year if riding the bike the way it's intended to be ridden. Anyone out there tried them?
I'd be curious to know if anyone here has any significant riding time on Ceramic Speed's Pivot Bearings (https://ceramicspeed.com/collections/pivot-bearings). I first learned about them at Eurobike...
I'd be curious to know if anyone here has any significant riding time on Ceramic Speed's Pivot Bearings (https://ceramicspeed.com/collections/pivot-bearings). I first learned about them at Eurobike several years ago, but haven't made the investment. The cost is obviously eye-catching, but I think an argument could be made for the value if one is keeping their bike for longer than 2-3 years. Think of a bike like a Norco Range that has stacks of bearings that should probably be replaced every year if riding the bike the way it's intended to be ridden. Anyone out there tried them?
Aren’t ceramic bearings a scam? I remember seeing that all their alleged benefits disappear as soon as they’re under load.
I’m at work and haven’t seen this video in a while so someone let me know if I’m right.
On a separate note, something I learned from my time in the industry is that almost everyone is undersizing their link bearings for the sake of weight, aesthetics, package space.
I've also read that ceramic bearings are pointless to the point of actually being worse. Something about how the hard ceramic bearings can eventually grind away the races and potentially lead to frame damage. I'm guessing very long term use with lots of grime ingested into them could potentially create that scenario.
Hybrid ceramic bearing (balls are ceramic and inner/outer races are steel) will lead to premature wear on the steel races. Full ceramic bearing (both balls and races) are very brittle and don't take impacts very well so they can shatter in bicycle application (hubs, pivot or even pulley wheels). Ceramic also need very high rpm with low drag seal or no seal at all to make more sense than regular full steel bearing.
Good tolerances and appropriate choice of sealing type would make more difference in bicycle application than anything else.
I have thought about a bearing binning service where each individual bearing is precisely measured so a customer could buy the very exact bearing they need to fit their application even if their size is a bit off the intended measure. Lets say you have a pivot bearing that is supposed to be 28mm OD (with a normal tolerance of +-0.05mm) but your frame is actually 27.85mm or 28.15mm you could get a bearing for it. Wouldn't fix the roundness issue and would probably be a too costly service to make business sense.
And if your application is undersized than you should just ream it to the proper size.
i saw ceramic bearings wear tremendously fast at gravity applications due to their poor tolerance with contamination like grim and humidity, they baceme rough and loose. happy trails !
Never mind ceramic bearings, what are people’s experience with full compliment v’s caged bearings? My last gen specialized enduro was as bad I was bulk buying the cheapest bearings from RS and just throwing them at it
I'm glad this kicked off some interest, but I'll apologize for the confusion caused by my post. I'm not interested in anyone's opinion on ceramic bearings and their effect on rolling resistance--i.e. in hub applications. That horse has been beaten a-plenty. I'm interested to know if anyone has tried these bearings in their suspension pivots. They are not traditional ball bearings. According to Ceramic Speed:
The CeramicSpeed SLT (Solid Lubrication Technology) Bearing for Rear Suspension Pivots: OPD (Optimized Pivot Design), features a unique combination of an oil-encapsulated solid plastic polymer and stainless-steel materials which results in a self-lubricating, corrosion-resistant, and maintenance-free bearing.
The micropores in the otherwise solid polymer evenly distribute just enough oil to keep the bearing well-lubricated, while also containing sufficient oil for it to be self-lubricating over the lifespan of the bearing – even when ridden in the harshest of conditions.
To me, this may make sense in a suspension pivot application since ball bearings are meant to spin continuously in a circle, while suspension pivots only rotate a few degrees.
I had Cane Creek's version of that, the Hellbender Neo, for bottom brackets on two bikes. Both completely seized after a ride or two. CC quickly abandoned those types of bearings. The SLT bearings look a lot like the Hellbender Neos in terms of the polymer structure so I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happens to them.
EDIT: Wow, even the "food industry" influence is the same. Not sure I'd put down money for those after my experience with the Hellbender Neos.
I'm not an engineer but after having to replace enduro .axx bearings every few months on mu mondraker foxy (terrible linkage design than bathes the bearings in mud and water with no drainage) I stared looking for a better option. I believe solid lubricated bearings for pivots makes sense. I think sks or ntn has a version. Incredibly hard to find though. My question is, are enduro maxx bearings actually any good? The tolerances of the balls and cages seems very loose.
I'm not an engineer but after having to replace enduro .axx bearings every few months on mu mondraker foxy (terrible linkage design than bathes the bearings...
I'm not an engineer but after having to replace enduro .axx bearings every few months on mu mondraker foxy (terrible linkage design than bathes the bearings in mud and water with no drainage) I stared looking for a better option. I believe solid lubricated bearings for pivots makes sense. I think sks or ntn has a version. Incredibly hard to find though. My question is, are enduro maxx bearings actually any good? The tolerances of the balls and cages seems very loose.
I think the issue with solid lube bearings is you can't "flush" the dirt that gets stuck in the bearing and wears out the race.
With a normal cartridge bearing you can pop the seal, clean the old grease and reapply new grease to get most of the gunk out that causes wear.
I'd be curious to know if anyone here has any significant riding time on Ceramic Speed's Pivot Bearings (https://ceramicspeed.com/collections/pivot-bearings). I first learned about them at Eurobike...
I'd be curious to know if anyone here has any significant riding time on Ceramic Speed's Pivot Bearings (https://ceramicspeed.com/collections/pivot-bearings). I first learned about them at Eurobike several years ago, but haven't made the investment. The cost is obviously eye-catching, but I think an argument could be made for the value if one is keeping their bike for longer than 2-3 years. Think of a bike like a Norco Range that has stacks of bearings that should probably be replaced every year if riding the bike the way it's intended to be ridden. Anyone out there tried them?
So I don’t use them but… I have a friend that every new bike has all new ceramics installed. Dude has never had any bearing fail or creak or anything over the course of years. Wheel, pivots,anything. That said, he’s also spent an few hundred bucks every time.
I'd be curious to know if anyone here has any significant riding time on Ceramic Speed's Pivot Bearings (https://ceramicspeed.com/collections/pivot-bearings). I first learned about them at Eurobike...
I'd be curious to know if anyone here has any significant riding time on Ceramic Speed's Pivot Bearings (https://ceramicspeed.com/collections/pivot-bearings). I first learned about them at Eurobike several years ago, but haven't made the investment. The cost is obviously eye-catching, but I think an argument could be made for the value if one is keeping their bike for longer than 2-3 years. Think of a bike like a Norco Range that has stacks of bearings that should probably be replaced every year if riding the bike the way it's intended to be ridden. Anyone out there tried them?
So I don’t use them but… I have a friend that every new bike has all new ceramics installed. Dude has never had any bearing fail...
So I don’t use them but… I have a friend that every new bike has all new ceramics installed. Dude has never had any bearing fail or creak or anything over the course of years. Wheel, pivots,anything. That said, he’s also spent an few hundred bucks every time.
My 2 cent input
I think the ideal no expense spared solution is ceramic in wheels and BBs and solid lube elsewhere. This would however result in a several hundred dollar bike price increase currently.
To further elaborate on my original comment in the tech rumor thread, the original idler bearing I had lasted 700-ish miles before it basically was seized. The solid lube bearing was offered with an updated idler aimed towards increased longevity. The SL bearing has seen 2500+ miles and is still spinning smoothly. Could I tell a difference between the original bearing or the solid lube bearing under load? No and frankly that was/is not a concern to me. A cursory glance at cost, the price difference is about 3.1x's more expensive for the solid lube bearing. Given that it has lasted more then 3.1x's the distance, I would willing to give SL bearings a shot in a couple of the suspension pivots in my personal bike as the main pivot and linkage bearings need to be changed out more frequently then the other two pivot points.
I'm not an engineer but after having to replace enduro .axx bearings every few months on mu mondraker foxy (terrible linkage design than bathes the bearings...
I'm not an engineer but after having to replace enduro .axx bearings every few months on mu mondraker foxy (terrible linkage design than bathes the bearings in mud and water with no drainage) I stared looking for a better option. I believe solid lubricated bearings for pivots makes sense. I think sks or ntn has a version. Incredibly hard to find though. My question is, are enduro maxx bearings actually any good? The tolerances of the balls and cages seems very loose.
Enduro MAXX (their term for full complement) bearings are not in the same league quality wise as NSK, SKF, FAG or even NTN and Koyo (IME). They are just an industrial bearing manufacturer that are not bicycle specific. However they do cater (advertise) towards bicycle bearing sizes more than the other big brands.
I have been running "Rulla bearings" in pivot points and BB's for a few years without issue. I don't know where/what manufacturer they use for their bearings and I live in a part of Australia with an average annual rainfall of 457mm, average annual low temperature 9.4°C and high of 20.4°C so not very moist, not very often.
I also do not wash my bike that often. Usually just a foam spray down followed by hosing off with the garden hose with a relatively gentle cone shaped spray pattern.
Aren’t ceramic bearings a scam? I remember seeing that all their alleged benefits disappear as soon as they’re under load.I’m at work and haven’t seen this...
Aren’t ceramic bearings a scam? I remember seeing that all their alleged benefits disappear as soon as they’re under load.
I’m at work and haven’t seen this video in a while so someone let me know if I’m right.
On a separate note, something I learned from my time in the industry is that almost everyone is undersizing their link bearings for the sake of weight, aesthetics, package space.
"almost everyone is undersizing their link bearings for the sake of weight, aesthetics, package space." Booooooooooo!!!!! Hiss!!!!! Shame!!!!
Just a data point, my real world experience with a specific hybrid bearing has been the total opposite of what you guys have read.
I have a bbinfinite, Press Fit BB module, with hybrid bearings in my RM Slayer. This bike sees all sorts crappy weather and I have found it to be better than any bb I’ve ever had for smoothness and durability. It predominantly sees shuttle and lift served laps but also has been pedaled in the alpine and steep B.C. Access roads.
They use Ceramitech Bearings: Our Si3n4 hybrid ceramic bearings feature ultra-spherical silicon nitride balls matched to SAE 52100 chrome steel bearing races that have been processed with additional heat treatment and polishing steps. The result is a hybrid-ceramic bearing that lasts longer than any steel bearing with spin performance no steel bearing can rival. We’re so confident in the durability of our Ceramitech bearings that we back them with a Lifetime Bearing Exchange warranty. These bearings feature mid-contact seals for extreme performance and endurance. Each bearing comes lubricated with Kluber Isoflex Topas NB52. Lifetime Warranty.”
NOWHERE in the description of CeramicSpeed OPD Bearing (slt) bearings, I see it has ceramic balls in it. It only says stainless materials and solid lube.
Ceramic balls on a steel race in an application with all the shock loading and no circles spun wouldn't be fit for purpose. No amount of material/surface treatments and marketing abbreviations would change that.
I think Ceramic Speed is just leaning into its reputation with roadies (or dirt roadies) to justify the price. SKF has solid lube bearing s as well and I think they are around half/third of the price.
I think the big question here is why your pivot bearings are dying.
1) bad design/dimensioning of suspension layout or bearings
2) bad/wrong bearings (too shitty quality, too soft material)
3) contamination of water and dirt ingress
There are for sure a bunch of frames that suffer from factor 1). There is usually not much that you can do besides buying a new frame.
Regarding point 2): here often OE bearings are cheap, meaning they do not have the hardness or tolerances required for the application or are sealed insufficiently. Here one can upgrade to better bearings that offer the factors required.
Regarding point 3): this is, in my experience, the most likely cause of death for pivot bearings if you buy a frame that doesn't have problem 1). Water comes in and the bearing starts to rust and, together with the dirt, damages the races and balls. If you have badly sealed bearings there are multiple options: i) clean and regrease them often (viable solution if done from the start; use marine/boat grease that is less likely to get washed out), ii) replace with stainless steel bearings (often not possible because races and balls are too soft), iii) replace with better sealed bearings (SKF 2RSH or similar).
As I usually buy frames that do not have the problems 1) or 2), I work with problem 3) by regreasing the bearings often with marine grease and, if they finally need replacing, switch them our with 2RSH bearings. These I prep from new with marine grease. That seems to do the trick.
I'm not an engineer but after having to replace enduro .axx bearings every few months on mu mondraker foxy (terrible linkage design than bathes the bearings...
I'm not an engineer but after having to replace enduro .axx bearings every few months on mu mondraker foxy (terrible linkage design than bathes the bearings in mud and water with no drainage) I stared looking for a better option. I believe solid lubricated bearings for pivots makes sense. I think sks or ntn has a version. Incredibly hard to find though. My question is, are enduro maxx bearings actually any good? The tolerances of the balls and cages seems very loose.
Enduro bearings are cheap Chinese bearings with a great marketing team. Enduro maxxx bearings lasted under a year in my 2020 Occam and the NTN ones I put in have been fine for over 3 years. I carefully removed the seals and packed them with green grease so I’m sure that helped.
Ball bearings suck in general for pivots. They are not designed for oscillation or thrust, they are designed for consistent rotation, such as hubs. Some pivots see such little rotation, the balls aren’t even really rotating, they’re just sliding around in between the races. Stick slip is when the bearing changes direction, and the balls slide for a moment before beginning to rotate again. All pivots deal with it and it causes premature wear. Unpopular opinion but is fact, bushings are better for oscillation. But most bike brands undersize, and they wear prematurely. Most brands also seem stuck believing igus and enduro are the only available options for bearings/bushings. SKF makes a huge variety of things other than fork seals. And timken makes a massive range of bearings that would last longer.
Main pivot bearings should be tapered roller bearings that can have preload adjusted. They have more surface area to prevent stick slip while oscillating, and they can withstand much higher loads for their size. They are also designed for thrust and rotational forces being applied at the same time. They weigh slightly more, but cost a decent amount more as well. They have another con of generally needing an external seal of some sort. But they are also more serviceable than standard ball bearings. They are also not available in super small sizes. Small enough for main pivots on a 4 bar bike but would be difficult to use in most vpp/dw type linkages. Now we’re entering the generation of 6 bar bikes, which just have more and more tiny bearings.
Ball bearings suck in general for pivots. They are not designed for oscillation or thrust, they are designed for consistent rotation, such as hubs. Some pivots...
Ball bearings suck in general for pivots. They are not designed for oscillation or thrust, they are designed for consistent rotation, such as hubs. Some pivots see such little rotation, the balls aren’t even really rotating, they’re just sliding around in between the races. Stick slip is when the bearing changes direction, and the balls slide for a moment before beginning to rotate again. All pivots deal with it and it causes premature wear. Unpopular opinion but is fact, bushings are better for oscillation. But most bike brands undersize, and they wear prematurely. Most brands also seem stuck believing igus and enduro are the only available options for bearings/bushings. SKF makes a huge variety of things other than fork seals. And timken makes a massive range of bearings that would last longer.
Main pivot bearings should be tapered roller bearings that can have preload adjusted. They have more surface area to prevent stick slip while oscillating, and they can withstand much higher loads for their size. They are also designed for thrust and rotational forces being applied at the same time. They weigh slightly more, but cost a decent amount more as well. They have another con of generally needing an external seal of some sort. But they are also more serviceable than standard ball bearings. They are also not available in super small sizes. Small enough for main pivots on a 4 bar bike but would be difficult to use in most vpp/dw type linkages. Now we’re entering the generation of 6 bar bikes, which just have more and more tiny bearings.
My dirt bike uses needle bearings in the linkage and swingarm. I grease them once a year and they've lasted for over 200 hours so far.
I think the big question here is why your pivot bearings are dying.1) bad design/dimensioning of suspension layout or bearings2) bad/wrong bearings (too shitty quality, too...
I think the big question here is why your pivot bearings are dying.
1) bad design/dimensioning of suspension layout or bearings
2) bad/wrong bearings (too shitty quality, too soft material)
3) contamination of water and dirt ingress
There are for sure a bunch of frames that suffer from factor 1). There is usually not much that you can do besides buying a new frame.
Regarding point 2): here often OE bearings are cheap, meaning they do not have the hardness or tolerances required for the application or are sealed insufficiently. Here one can upgrade to better bearings that offer the factors required.
Regarding point 3): this is, in my experience, the most likely cause of death for pivot bearings if you buy a frame that doesn't have problem 1). Water comes in and the bearing starts to rust and, together with the dirt, damages the races and balls. If you have badly sealed bearings there are multiple options: i) clean and regrease them often (viable solution if done from the start; use marine/boat grease that is less likely to get washed out), ii) replace with stainless steel bearings (often not possible because races and balls are too soft), iii) replace with better sealed bearings (SKF 2RSH or similar).
As I usually buy frames that do not have the problems 1) or 2), I work with problem 3) by regreasing the bearings often with marine grease and, if they finally need replacing, switch them our with 2RSH bearings. These I prep from new with marine grease. That seems to do the trick.
Exactly right. I’m on a V2 Raaw Madonna and I’m still on the original OEM bearings after 5 seasons with 150+ days per year and some park thrown in. All I do is strip the bike and repack the bearings every winter. I think the combination of great sealing, large bearings and great tolerances are the key.
I don't like bushings because they aren't as smooth in action as bearings. I ran bushings for my shocks because that's what they came with. On a whim I decided to try needle bearings from RWC. The movement is noticeably more fluid and free. I've moved the needle bearings between 3 shocks and three bikes and regrease at maintenance intervals. Never had a problem with them and I find the rear end plusher.
This is not to say go out and buy them, they aren't exactly cheap but I do notice a difference between bushings and bearings just at the shock ends. I can't imagine how a full rear suspension bushing setup would feel, but I'd take bearings any day over bushings based on my experience.
Ball bearings suck in general for pivots. They are not designed for oscillation or thrust, they are designed for consistent rotation, such as hubs. Some pivots...
Ball bearings suck in general for pivots. They are not designed for oscillation or thrust, they are designed for consistent rotation, such as hubs. Some pivots see such little rotation, the balls aren’t even really rotating, they’re just sliding around in between the races. Stick slip is when the bearing changes direction, and the balls slide for a moment before beginning to rotate again. All pivots deal with it and it causes premature wear. Unpopular opinion but is fact, bushings are better for oscillation. But most bike brands undersize, and they wear prematurely. Most brands also seem stuck believing igus and enduro are the only available options for bearings/bushings. SKF makes a huge variety of things other than fork seals. And timken makes a massive range of bearings that would last longer.
Main pivot bearings should be tapered roller bearings that can have preload adjusted. They have more surface area to prevent stick slip while oscillating, and they can withstand much higher loads for their size. They are also designed for thrust and rotational forces being applied at the same time. They weigh slightly more, but cost a decent amount more as well. They have another con of generally needing an external seal of some sort. But they are also more serviceable than standard ball bearings. They are also not available in super small sizes. Small enough for main pivots on a 4 bar bike but would be difficult to use in most vpp/dw type linkages. Now we’re entering the generation of 6 bar bikes, which just have more and more tiny bearings.
My dirt bike uses needle bearings in the linkage and swingarm. I grease them once a year and they've lasted for over 200 hours so far.
Needle bearings are great for oscillating pivots due the contact area of the bearing, very little stick slip. They are also very sensitive to tolerance/misalignment and have zero capability of thrust forces without a secondary thrust bearing being used.
I think the big question here is why your pivot bearings are dying.1) bad design/dimensioning of suspension layout or bearings2) bad/wrong bearings (too shitty quality, too...
I think the big question here is why your pivot bearings are dying.
1) bad design/dimensioning of suspension layout or bearings
2) bad/wrong bearings (too shitty quality, too soft material)
3) contamination of water and dirt ingress
There are for sure a bunch of frames that suffer from factor 1). There is usually not much that you can do besides buying a new frame.
Regarding point 2): here often OE bearings are cheap, meaning they do not have the hardness or tolerances required for the application or are sealed insufficiently. Here one can upgrade to better bearings that offer the factors required.
Regarding point 3): this is, in my experience, the most likely cause of death for pivot bearings if you buy a frame that doesn't have problem 1). Water comes in and the bearing starts to rust and, together with the dirt, damages the races and balls. If you have badly sealed bearings there are multiple options: i) clean and regrease them often (viable solution if done from the start; use marine/boat grease that is less likely to get washed out), ii) replace with stainless steel bearings (often not possible because races and balls are too soft), iii) replace with better sealed bearings (SKF 2RSH or similar).
As I usually buy frames that do not have the problems 1) or 2), I work with problem 3) by regreasing the bearings often with marine grease and, if they finally need replacing, switch them our with 2RSH bearings. These I prep from new with marine grease. That seems to do the trick.
Mountain bike pivots are generally very badly designed, probably to save weight and cost. The bearings are too small, they often use single shear bolts, the bores usually too small/tight and the alignment is average at best. Enduro bearings are usually the best option because a) mature industries wouldn't use sizes like 6802 in those applications an b) if you use a bearing with tighter clearances they will be effectively seized once its mashed in to an undersized and probably oval pivot.
Someone mentioned Norco range - they have one of the best pivots designs I have ever seen! I rebuilt one recently and while it was expensive they had lasted about 5 years and weren't in a horrendous state like some brands are after 6 months.
I spent a lot of time trying to find the best solutions for frames that aye bearings and pretty much gave up - its really the frame designers making awful decisions that are the biggest cuplrit. Hopefully your bike uses cheap sizes like 6802 which are more affordable than the weirdo double row sizes Trek uses but last equally poorly!
I don't like bushings because they aren't as smooth in action as bearings. I ran bushings for my shocks because that's what they came with. On...
I don't like bushings because they aren't as smooth in action as bearings. I ran bushings for my shocks because that's what they came with. On a whim I decided to try needle bearings from RWC. The movement is noticeably more fluid and free. I've moved the needle bearings between 3 shocks and three bikes and regrease at maintenance intervals. Never had a problem with them and I find the rear end plusher.
This is not to say go out and buy them, they aren't exactly cheap but I do notice a difference between bushings and bearings just at the shock ends. I can't imagine how a full rear suspension bushing setup would feel, but I'd take bearings any day over bushings based on my experience.
Bushings need their own specific combination of tolerances to work properly as well! The Vorsprung shock fitment document has great data on this but not only do the shock eyelet and pin need fine tolerances, but the width and design of the frame mount needs to be tight enough but also have enough flex to squish the pin just enough to preload the bushing. If you constantly wear bushings or they feel excessively tight then this is the cause!
Mountain bike pivots are generally very badly designed, probably to save weight and cost. The bearings are too small, they often use single shear bolts, the...
Mountain bike pivots are generally very badly designed, probably to save weight and cost. The bearings are too small, they often use single shear bolts, the bores usually too small/tight and the alignment is average at best. Enduro bearings are usually the best option because a) mature industries wouldn't use sizes like 6802 in those applications an b) if you use a bearing with tighter clearances they will be effectively seized once its mashed in to an undersized and probably oval pivot.
Someone mentioned Norco range - they have one of the best pivots designs I have ever seen! I rebuilt one recently and while it was expensive they had lasted about 5 years and weren't in a horrendous state like some brands are after 6 months.
I spent a lot of time trying to find the best solutions for frames that aye bearings and pretty much gave up - its really the frame designers making awful decisions that are the biggest cuplrit. Hopefully your bike uses cheap sizes like 6802 which are more affordable than the weirdo double row sizes Trek uses but last equally poorly!
The Enduro Max bearings have worse sealing than the 2RSH SKF bearings, so need more maintenance to keep them rust an contamination free. I get the idea of full complement bearings, but in my experience the worse sealing outweighs the benefits.
Although well maintained, Enduro Max bearings in the lower pivot points of older Intense VPP bikes seem to have died on me way too early. Switching to non full complement but better sealed SKF bearings solved the issue for me. If you ride in dry climates you might be OK with them, but I will never touch Enduro bearings again. NTN or SKF all the way.
Ball bearings suck in general for pivots. They are not designed for oscillation or thrust, they are designed for consistent rotation, such as hubs. Some pivots...
Ball bearings suck in general for pivots. They are not designed for oscillation or thrust, they are designed for consistent rotation, such as hubs. Some pivots see such little rotation, the balls aren’t even really rotating, they’re just sliding around in between the races. Stick slip is when the bearing changes direction, and the balls slide for a moment before beginning to rotate again. All pivots deal with it and it causes premature wear. Unpopular opinion but is fact, bushings are better for oscillation. But most bike brands undersize, and they wear prematurely. Most brands also seem stuck believing igus and enduro are the only available options for bearings/bushings. SKF makes a huge variety of things other than fork seals. And timken makes a massive range of bearings that would last longer.
Main pivot bearings should be tapered roller bearings that can have preload adjusted. They have more surface area to prevent stick slip while oscillating, and they can withstand much higher loads for their size. They are also designed for thrust and rotational forces being applied at the same time. They weigh slightly more, but cost a decent amount more as well. They have another con of generally needing an external seal of some sort. But they are also more serviceable than standard ball bearings. They are also not available in super small sizes. Small enough for main pivots on a 4 bar bike but would be difficult to use in most vpp/dw type linkages. Now we’re entering the generation of 6 bar bikes, which just have more and more tiny bearings.
I wish at least the aftermarket suspension shops implemented roller bearings in their products. If Cascade replaced ball bearings with roller bearings in their SC links, I would be 95% more motivated to get one.
Ball bearings suck in general for pivots. They are not designed for oscillation or thrust, they are designed for consistent rotation, such as hubs. Some pivots...
Ball bearings suck in general for pivots. They are not designed for oscillation or thrust, they are designed for consistent rotation, such as hubs. Some pivots see such little rotation, the balls aren’t even really rotating, they’re just sliding around in between the races. Stick slip is when the bearing changes direction, and the balls slide for a moment before beginning to rotate again. All pivots deal with it and it causes premature wear. Unpopular opinion but is fact, bushings are better for oscillation. But most bike brands undersize, and they wear prematurely. Most brands also seem stuck believing igus and enduro are the only available options for bearings/bushings. SKF makes a huge variety of things other than fork seals. And timken makes a massive range of bearings that would last longer.
Main pivot bearings should be tapered roller bearings that can have preload adjusted. They have more surface area to prevent stick slip while oscillating, and they can withstand much higher loads for their size. They are also designed for thrust and rotational forces being applied at the same time. They weigh slightly more, but cost a decent amount more as well. They have another con of generally needing an external seal of some sort. But they are also more serviceable than standard ball bearings. They are also not available in super small sizes. Small enough for main pivots on a 4 bar bike but would be difficult to use in most vpp/dw type linkages. Now we’re entering the generation of 6 bar bikes, which just have more and more tiny bearings.
I wish at least the aftermarket suspension shops implemented roller bearings in their products. If Cascade replaced ball bearings with roller bearings in their SC links...
I wish at least the aftermarket suspension shops implemented roller bearings in their products. If Cascade replaced ball bearings with roller bearings in their SC links, I would be 95% more motivated to get one.
They would have to potentially redesign the entire pivot axle where possible to preload a tapered roller bearing. Not sure if the newer frame design still uses them, but this dude build the Pinnit (project shredmaster) frame with tapered rollers. super cool frame in all honesty…
I'd be curious to know if anyone here has any significant riding time on Ceramic Speed's Pivot Bearings (https://ceramicspeed.com/collections/pivot-bearings). I first learned about them at Eurobike several years ago, but haven't made the investment. The cost is obviously eye-catching, but I think an argument could be made for the value if one is keeping their bike for longer than 2-3 years. Think of a bike like a Norco Range that has stacks of bearings that should probably be replaced every year if riding the bike the way it's intended to be ridden. Anyone out there tried them?
Aren’t ceramic bearings a scam? I remember seeing that all their alleged benefits disappear as soon as they’re under load.
I’m at work and haven’t seen this video in a while so someone let me know if I’m right.
https://youtu.be/o7iZVfSDbiA?si=qB6XlgViS41czS0u
On a separate note, something I learned from my time in the industry is that almost everyone is undersizing their link bearings for the sake of weight, aesthetics, package space.
I've also read that ceramic bearings are pointless to the point of actually being worse. Something about how the hard ceramic bearings can eventually grind away the races and potentially lead to frame damage. I'm guessing very long term use with lots of grime ingested into them could potentially create that scenario.
Hybrid ceramic bearing (balls are ceramic and inner/outer races are steel) will lead to premature wear on the steel races. Full ceramic bearing (both balls and races) are very brittle and don't take impacts very well so they can shatter in bicycle application (hubs, pivot or even pulley wheels). Ceramic also need very high rpm with low drag seal or no seal at all to make more sense than regular full steel bearing.
Good tolerances and appropriate choice of sealing type would make more difference in bicycle application than anything else.
I have thought about a bearing binning service where each individual bearing is precisely measured so a customer could buy the very exact bearing they need to fit their application even if their size is a bit off the intended measure. Lets say you have a pivot bearing that is supposed to be 28mm OD (with a normal tolerance of +-0.05mm) but your frame is actually 27.85mm or 28.15mm you could get a bearing for it. Wouldn't fix the roundness issue and would probably be a too costly service to make business sense.
And if your application is undersized than you should just ream it to the proper size.
hello !
i saw ceramic bearings wear tremendously fast at gravity applications due to their poor tolerance with contamination like grim and humidity, they baceme rough and loose. happy trails !
Never mind ceramic bearings, what are people’s experience with full compliment v’s caged bearings? My last gen specialized enduro was as bad I was bulk buying the cheapest bearings from RS and just throwing them at it
I'm glad this kicked off some interest, but I'll apologize for the confusion caused by my post. I'm not interested in anyone's opinion on ceramic bearings and their effect on rolling resistance--i.e. in hub applications. That horse has been beaten a-plenty. I'm interested to know if anyone has tried these bearings in their suspension pivots. They are not traditional ball bearings. According to Ceramic Speed:
The CeramicSpeed SLT (Solid Lubrication Technology) Bearing for Rear Suspension Pivots: OPD (Optimized Pivot Design), features a unique combination of an oil-encapsulated solid plastic polymer and stainless-steel materials which results in a self-lubricating, corrosion-resistant, and maintenance-free bearing.
The micropores in the otherwise solid polymer evenly distribute just enough oil to keep the bearing well-lubricated, while also containing sufficient oil for it to be self-lubricating over the lifespan of the bearing – even when ridden in the harshest of conditions.
To me, this may make sense in a suspension pivot application since ball bearings are meant to spin continuously in a circle, while suspension pivots only rotate a few degrees.
I had Cane Creek's version of that, the Hellbender Neo, for bottom brackets on two bikes. Both completely seized after a ride or two. CC quickly abandoned those types of bearings. The SLT bearings look a lot like the Hellbender Neos in terms of the polymer structure so I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happens to them.
EDIT: Wow, even the "food industry" influence is the same. Not sure I'd put down money for those after my experience with the Hellbender Neos.
I'm not an engineer but after having to replace enduro .axx bearings every few months on mu mondraker foxy (terrible linkage design than bathes the bearings in mud and water with no drainage) I stared looking for a better option. I believe solid lubricated bearings for pivots makes sense. I think sks or ntn has a version. Incredibly hard to find though. My question is, are enduro maxx bearings actually any good? The tolerances of the balls and cages seems very loose.
I think the issue with solid lube bearings is you can't "flush" the dirt that gets stuck in the bearing and wears out the race.
With a normal cartridge bearing you can pop the seal, clean the old grease and reapply new grease to get most of the gunk out that causes wear.
So I don’t use them but… I have a friend that every new bike has all new ceramics installed. Dude has never had any bearing fail or creak or anything over the course of years. Wheel, pivots,anything. That said, he’s also spent an few hundred bucks every time.
My 2 cent input
I think the ideal no expense spared solution is ceramic in wheels and BBs and solid lube elsewhere. This would however result in a several hundred dollar bike price increase currently.
To further elaborate on my original comment in the tech rumor thread, the original idler bearing I had lasted 700-ish miles before it basically was seized. The solid lube bearing was offered with an updated idler aimed towards increased longevity. The SL bearing has seen 2500+ miles and is still spinning smoothly. Could I tell a difference between the original bearing or the solid lube bearing under load? No and frankly that was/is not a concern to me. A cursory glance at cost, the price difference is about 3.1x's more expensive for the solid lube bearing. Given that it has lasted more then 3.1x's the distance, I would willing to give SL bearings a shot in a couple of the suspension pivots in my personal bike as the main pivot and linkage bearings need to be changed out more frequently then the other two pivot points.
Enduro MAXX (their term for full complement) bearings are not in the same league quality wise as NSK, SKF, FAG or even NTN and Koyo (IME). They are just an industrial bearing manufacturer that are not bicycle specific. However they do cater (advertise) towards bicycle bearing sizes more than the other big brands.
I have been running "Rulla bearings" in pivot points and BB's for a few years without issue. I don't know where/what manufacturer they use for their bearings and I live in a part of Australia with an average annual rainfall of 457mm, average annual low temperature 9.4°C and high of 20.4°C so not very moist, not very often.
I also do not wash my bike that often. Usually just a foam spray down followed by hosing off with the garden hose with a relatively gentle cone shaped spray pattern.
"almost everyone is undersizing their link bearings for the sake of weight, aesthetics, package space." Booooooooooo!!!!! Hiss!!!!! Shame!!!!
Just a data point, my real world experience with a specific hybrid bearing has been the total opposite of what you guys have read.
I have a bbinfinite, Press Fit BB module, with hybrid bearings in my RM Slayer. This bike sees all sorts crappy weather and I have found it to be better than any bb I’ve ever had for smoothness and durability. It predominantly sees shuttle and lift served laps but also has been pedaled in the alpine and steep B.C. Access roads.
They use Ceramitech Bearings: Our Si3n4 hybrid ceramic bearings feature ultra-spherical silicon nitride balls matched to SAE 52100 chrome steel bearing races that have been processed with additional heat treatment and polishing steps. The result is a hybrid-ceramic bearing that lasts longer than any steel bearing with spin performance no steel bearing can rival. We’re so confident in the durability of our Ceramitech bearings that we back them with a Lifetime Bearing Exchange warranty. These bearings feature mid-contact seals for extreme performance and endurance. Each bearing comes lubricated with Kluber Isoflex Topas NB52. Lifetime Warranty.”
Sounds like y'all need to be cleaning and re-greasing bearings more often.
NOWHERE in the description of CeramicSpeed OPD Bearing (slt) bearings, I see it has ceramic balls in it.
It only says stainless materials and solid lube.
Ceramic balls on a steel race in an application with all the shock loading and no circles spun wouldn't be fit for purpose.
No amount of material/surface treatments and marketing abbreviations would change that.
I think Ceramic Speed is just leaning into its reputation with roadies (or dirt roadies) to justify the price.
SKF has solid lube bearing s as well and I think they are around half/third of the price.
I think the big question here is why your pivot bearings are dying.
1) bad design/dimensioning of suspension layout or bearings
2) bad/wrong bearings (too shitty quality, too soft material)
3) contamination of water and dirt ingress
There are for sure a bunch of frames that suffer from factor 1). There is usually not much that you can do besides buying a new frame.
Regarding point 2): here often OE bearings are cheap, meaning they do not have the hardness or tolerances required for the application or are sealed insufficiently. Here one can upgrade to better bearings that offer the factors required.
Regarding point 3): this is, in my experience, the most likely cause of death for pivot bearings if you buy a frame that doesn't have problem 1). Water comes in and the bearing starts to rust and, together with the dirt, damages the races and balls. If you have badly sealed bearings there are multiple options: i) clean and regrease them often (viable solution if done from the start; use marine/boat grease that is less likely to get washed out), ii) replace with stainless steel bearings (often not possible because races and balls are too soft), iii) replace with better sealed bearings (SKF 2RSH or similar).
As I usually buy frames that do not have the problems 1) or 2), I work with problem 3) by regreasing the bearings often with marine grease and, if they finally need replacing, switch them our with 2RSH bearings. These I prep from new with marine grease. That seems to do the trick.
Enduro bearings are cheap Chinese bearings with a great marketing team. Enduro maxxx bearings lasted under a year in my 2020 Occam and the NTN ones I put in have been fine for over 3 years. I carefully removed the seals and packed them with green grease so I’m sure that helped.
Ball bearings suck in general for pivots. They are not designed for oscillation or thrust, they are designed for consistent rotation, such as hubs. Some pivots see such little rotation, the balls aren’t even really rotating, they’re just sliding around in between the races. Stick slip is when the bearing changes direction, and the balls slide for a moment before beginning to rotate again. All pivots deal with it and it causes premature wear.
Unpopular opinion but is fact, bushings are better for oscillation. But most bike brands undersize, and they wear prematurely. Most brands also seem stuck believing igus and enduro are the only available options for bearings/bushings. SKF makes a huge variety of things other than fork seals. And timken makes a massive range of bearings that would last longer.
Main pivot bearings should be tapered roller bearings that can have preload adjusted. They have more surface area to prevent stick slip while oscillating, and they can withstand much higher loads for their size. They are also designed for thrust and rotational forces being applied at the same time. They weigh slightly more, but cost a decent amount more as well. They have another con of generally needing an external seal of some sort.
But they are also more serviceable than standard ball bearings. They are also not available in super small sizes. Small enough for main pivots on a 4 bar bike but would be difficult to use in most vpp/dw type linkages.
Now we’re entering the generation of 6 bar bikes, which just have more and more tiny bearings.
My dirt bike uses needle bearings in the linkage and swingarm. I grease them once a year and they've lasted for over 200 hours so far.
Exactly right. I’m on a V2 Raaw Madonna and I’m still on the original OEM bearings after 5 seasons with 150+ days per year and some park thrown in. All I do is strip the bike and repack the bearings every winter. I think the combination of great sealing, large bearings and great tolerances are the key.
I don't like bushings because they aren't as smooth in action as bearings. I ran bushings for my shocks because that's what they came with. On a whim I decided to try needle bearings from RWC. The movement is noticeably more fluid and free. I've moved the needle bearings between 3 shocks and three bikes and regrease at maintenance intervals. Never had a problem with them and I find the rear end plusher.
This is not to say go out and buy them, they aren't exactly cheap but I do notice a difference between bushings and bearings just at the shock ends. I can't imagine how a full rear suspension bushing setup would feel, but I'd take bearings any day over bushings based on my experience.
Needle bearings are great for oscillating pivots due the contact area of the bearing, very little stick slip.
They are also very sensitive to tolerance/misalignment and have zero capability of thrust forces without a secondary thrust bearing being used.
Mountain bike pivots are generally very badly designed, probably to save weight and cost. The bearings are too small, they often use single shear bolts, the bores usually too small/tight and the alignment is average at best. Enduro bearings are usually the best option because a) mature industries wouldn't use sizes like 6802 in those applications an b) if you use a bearing with tighter clearances they will be effectively seized once its mashed in to an undersized and probably oval pivot.
Someone mentioned Norco range - they have one of the best pivots designs I have ever seen! I rebuilt one recently and while it was expensive they had lasted about 5 years and weren't in a horrendous state like some brands are after 6 months.
I spent a lot of time trying to find the best solutions for frames that aye bearings and pretty much gave up - its really the frame designers making awful decisions that are the biggest cuplrit. Hopefully your bike uses cheap sizes like 6802 which are more affordable than the weirdo double row sizes Trek uses but last equally poorly!
Bushings need their own specific combination of tolerances to work properly as well! The Vorsprung shock fitment document has great data on this but not only do the shock eyelet and pin need fine tolerances, but the width and design of the frame mount needs to be tight enough but also have enough flex to squish the pin just enough to preload the bushing. If you constantly wear bushings or they feel excessively tight then this is the cause!
The Enduro Max bearings have worse sealing than the 2RSH SKF bearings, so need more maintenance to keep them rust an contamination free. I get the idea of full complement bearings, but in my experience the worse sealing outweighs the benefits.
Although well maintained, Enduro Max bearings in the lower pivot points of older Intense VPP bikes seem to have died on me way too early. Switching to non full complement but better sealed SKF bearings solved the issue for me. If you ride in dry climates you might be OK with them, but I will never touch Enduro bearings again. NTN or SKF all the way.
I wish at least the aftermarket suspension shops implemented roller bearings in their products. If Cascade replaced ball bearings with roller bearings in their SC links, I would be 95% more motivated to get one.
They would have to potentially redesign the entire pivot axle where possible to preload a tapered roller bearing.
Not sure if the newer frame design still uses them, but this dude build the Pinnit (project shredmaster) frame with tapered rollers.
super cool frame in all honesty…
https://www.instagram.com/p/CKgb7DehEPR/?igsh=Mmwxd3V6dzhwejdr
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