I would prefer the bosch as it doesn't rattle and the weight would probably be very close with non removable batteries. But it has to be...
I would prefer the bosch as it doesn't rattle and the weight would probably be very close with non removable batteries. But it has to be the whole bike. I don't know why people are so fixated on motors and their power. I'm more interested in how the bike handles on trails. Any motor will get me up there.
Thank you!
The obsession with the fastest motor really has gotten out of hand.
PS. That said, Forbidden has announced an E-Druid and an E-Dreadnaught utilizing the Avinox motor.
I would prefer the bosch as it doesn't rattle and the weight would probably be very close with non removable batteries. But it has to be...
I would prefer the bosch as it doesn't rattle and the weight would probably be very close with non removable batteries. But it has to be the whole bike. I don't know why people are so fixated on motors and their power. I'm more interested in how the bike handles on trails. Any motor will get me up there.
Thank you! The obsession with the fastest motor really has gotten out of hand. PS. That said, Forbidden has announced an E-Druid and an E-Dreadnaught utilizing the Avinox...
Thank you!
The obsession with the fastest motor really has gotten out of hand.
PS. That said, Forbidden has announced an E-Druid and an E-Dreadnaught utilizing the Avinox motor.
More speed and power!
Looks to be DJI. Competition for the current market can only be good for us consumers.
For the most part I think the current crop of ebikes are pretty close to the right mix of weight, power and performance. A solid frame will always be important. This is where I think future manufacturers who miss the mark and will try to cover up with more power. There's also reliability, a variable that seems mostly skipped over in this new market.
What's really interesting about Forbidden is that their frames get nothing but praise. Drop in a current generation Shimano and it would be amazing. They also sell their current models as frame only. I hope this continues with their new ebikes, and others follow. I do not need a bigger parts bin for all of these take-offs from full builds.
I would prefer the bosch as it doesn't rattle and the weight would probably be very close with non removable batteries. But it has to be...
I would prefer the bosch as it doesn't rattle and the weight would probably be very close with non removable batteries. But it has to be the whole bike. I don't know why people are so fixated on motors and their power. I'm more interested in how the bike handles on trails. Any motor will get me up there.
That's very true, the ride of the bike overall is really the key thing, and it would be a mistake to get crappy bike just because it has a top notch motor on it.
Having said that, I am very much looking forward to when we have "Full Power" bikes at "SL" bike weight, and the DJI motor/battery (and also the new Bosch CX and their lighter batteries) are both big steps forward in achieving that. I recently was able to get in some riding swapping back and forth between a full power Shimano bike, and a Bosch SX bike. Even though the SX is one of the more powerful light weight models, the difference in torque was noticeable. The extra torque of the Shimano was very welcome on technical climbing where a lower cadence is required to avoid pedal strikes and for balance. It was also nice on flat but twisty terrain where the Shimano could help boost you from corner to corner, turning what would have been a pretty boring section of trail on a 50lb bike into almost a DH sort of experience. Granted, for people who are doing more "winch and plummet" type riding, with the climbs mostly done on fire roads, and the descents mostly gravity powered on singletrack, the extra torque wouldn't really matter.
Just FYI, apparently DJI has also cured their motor rattle (as Bosch did on their newest gen CX) between when the initial DJI protos were shown and when the production Amflow bikes started being sent out. That is pretty damn impressive that they came up with a solution to the rattle complaints of early testers in a few months, when it took Bosch several years, and Shimano still hasn't fixed it.
OK hookem34, the PB article just dropped on the Forbidden/DJI bike. Clearly you know more than you were letting on. I know there's probably a carefully planned trickle marketing campaign planned but, fess up, what are the deets? I want travel and weight figures at minimum!😉
P.S. That seems like a real coup for Forbidden to be the first 3d party to use the DJI motor, so props to them! I wonder is it is a "DJI being selective and wanting to keep a premium/boutique image of their product" sort of thing, or is it a "small companies like Forbidden are more nimble and can shift to a new direction faster than the big guys" sort of thing?
...or larger companies cant be risky enough to invest into partnership with a company from mainland China that might be banned from the US market (entirely or in parts)
... or larger companies have business contracts with the current manufacturers that span years and have amendments for future deals
... or larger companies don't want to jump the ship too fast to have an unproven yet tech for their flagships
I'm not in any way against DJI, but those kinds of questions are likely to be answered positively by smaller companies
OK hookem34, the PB article just dropped on the Forbidden/DJI bike. Clearly you know more than you were letting on. I know there's probably a carefully...
OK hookem34, the PB article just dropped on the Forbidden/DJI bike. Clearly you know more than you were letting on. I know there's probably a carefully planned trickle marketing campaign planned but, fess up, what are the deets? I want travel and weight figures at minimum!😉
P.S. That seems like a real coup for Forbidden to be the first 3d party to use the DJI motor, so props to them! I wonder is it is a "DJI being selective and wanting to keep a premium/boutique image of their product" sort of thing, or is it a "small companies like Forbidden are more nimble and can shift to a new direction faster than the big guys" sort of thing?
But it has even less travel than the avinox and the long travel bike seems to weigh a tad less than a levo which can be bumped to 165mm travel with a cascade link.
It will be interesting to see if there will be avinox bikes with removable batteries because I think the weight saving come also from the battery being non removable so it can be designed lighter.
I would prefer the bosch as it doesn't rattle and the weight would probably be very close with non removable batteries. But it has to be...
I would prefer the bosch as it doesn't rattle and the weight would probably be very close with non removable batteries. But it has to be the whole bike. I don't know why people are so fixated on motors and their power. I'm more interested in how the bike handles on trails. Any motor will get me up there.
That's very true, the ride of the bike overall is really the key thing, and it would be a mistake to get crappy bike just because...
That's very true, the ride of the bike overall is really the key thing, and it would be a mistake to get crappy bike just because it has a top notch motor on it.
Having said that, I am very much looking forward to when we have "Full Power" bikes at "SL" bike weight, and the DJI motor/battery (and also the new Bosch CX and their lighter batteries) are both big steps forward in achieving that. I recently was able to get in some riding swapping back and forth between a full power Shimano bike, and a Bosch SX bike. Even though the SX is one of the more powerful light weight models, the difference in torque was noticeable. The extra torque of the Shimano was very welcome on technical climbing where a lower cadence is required to avoid pedal strikes and for balance. It was also nice on flat but twisty terrain where the Shimano could help boost you from corner to corner, turning what would have been a pretty boring section of trail on a 50lb bike into almost a DH sort of experience. Granted, for people who are doing more "winch and plummet" type riding, with the climbs mostly done on fire roads, and the descents mostly gravity powered on singletrack, the extra torque wouldn't really matter.
Just FYI, apparently DJI has also cured their motor rattle (as Bosch did on their newest gen CX) between when the initial DJI protos were shown and when the production Amflow bikes started being sent out. That is pretty damn impressive that they came up with a solution to the rattle complaints of early testers in a few months, when it took Bosch several years, and Shimano still hasn't fixed it.
The motor rattle is just building them loose enough that they can be pedaled easily with the motor off. They can tighten them up, and make them all stop rattling.
The only motor that pedals freely AND has no rattle is the F60.
That said, I cared about this a lot when I was shopping for my first e-bike, but no longer care about pedaling with the motor off.
The Avinox is the motor's name, not the bike,which is called Amflow PLFor weight,the Amflow weighs 19.3 with the 600wh battery,in the same ball park as...
The Avinox is the motor's name, not the bike,which is called Amflow PL
For weight,the Amflow weighs 19.3 with the 600wh battery,in the same ball park as the Forbbiden with 600wh.
The 170/180 version with 800wh weighs more but surely with much burlier components than the PL with 800wh battery and more robust frame.
I don't believe that the E-Druid will weigh 43#s, a full 5#s less than the E-Dreadnaught, but I hope that I am wrong, and it is that light.
But idler bikes are inherently heavier. They also behave like they have more travel. So, would I prefer to have a 43# Avinox 150/ 160 e-Druid? Definitely. But I feel I'd be content with the bike at 140/ 150. Geo and quality of suspension are more important after all.
I am enjoying my Relay for certain, but technology marches on for sure and this space is advancing rapidly.
I would prefer the bosch as it doesn't rattle and the weight would probably be very close with non removable batteries. But it has to be...
I would prefer the bosch as it doesn't rattle and the weight would probably be very close with non removable batteries. But it has to be the whole bike. I don't know why people are so fixated on motors and their power. I'm more interested in how the bike handles on trails. Any motor will get me up there.
That's very true, the ride of the bike overall is really the key thing, and it would be a mistake to get crappy bike just because...
That's very true, the ride of the bike overall is really the key thing, and it would be a mistake to get crappy bike just because it has a top notch motor on it.
Having said that, I am very much looking forward to when we have "Full Power" bikes at "SL" bike weight, and the DJI motor/battery (and also the new Bosch CX and their lighter batteries) are both big steps forward in achieving that. I recently was able to get in some riding swapping back and forth between a full power Shimano bike, and a Bosch SX bike. Even though the SX is one of the more powerful light weight models, the difference in torque was noticeable. The extra torque of the Shimano was very welcome on technical climbing where a lower cadence is required to avoid pedal strikes and for balance. It was also nice on flat but twisty terrain where the Shimano could help boost you from corner to corner, turning what would have been a pretty boring section of trail on a 50lb bike into almost a DH sort of experience. Granted, for people who are doing more "winch and plummet" type riding, with the climbs mostly done on fire roads, and the descents mostly gravity powered on singletrack, the extra torque wouldn't really matter.
Just FYI, apparently DJI has also cured their motor rattle (as Bosch did on their newest gen CX) between when the initial DJI protos were shown and when the production Amflow bikes started being sent out. That is pretty damn impressive that they came up with a solution to the rattle complaints of early testers in a few months, when it took Bosch several years, and Shimano still hasn't fixed it.
The motor rattle is just building them loose enough that they can be pedaled easily with the motor off. They can tighten them up, and make...
The motor rattle is just building them loose enough that they can be pedaled easily with the motor off. They can tighten them up, and make them all stop rattling.
The only motor that pedals freely AND has no rattle is the F60.
That said, I cared about this a lot when I was shopping for my first e-bike, but no longer care about pedaling with the motor off.
I think most Relay owners have come to the same conclusion--the only time you'll ever pedal an ebike off is when there's an electrical malfunction or the battery runs out (both are worst-case scenarios); otherwise, no one with an ebike really cares how it pedals without assistance. Unassisted pedaling performance should not factor into an ebike purchase at all.
when solid state batteries, gearbox's and 5 yr warranties happen, the ebike world will be unstoppable. I still think you'll need a non-ebike in your arsenal as well.
How are these proposed new e-MTBs with > 100Nm even still Class 1 bikes in the USA? Class 1 is 750 Watts (1 HP). Are they cutting off at 70-75 RPM or just ignoring the classification?
60 Nm that pedal at a normal bike cadence and a big, light battery is what appeals to me. And quiet. My EP801 has more power in boost than I ever want except in injury recovery mode on dirt roads.
How are these proposed new e-MTBs with > 100Nm even still Class 1 bikes in the USA? Class 1 is 750 Watts (1 HP). Are they...
How are these proposed new e-MTBs with > 100Nm even still Class 1 bikes in the USA? Class 1 is 750 Watts (1 HP). Are they cutting off at 70-75 RPM or just ignoring the classification?
60 Nm that pedal at a normal bike cadence and a big, light battery is what appeals to me. And quiet. My EP801 has more power in boost than I ever want except in injury recovery mode on dirt roads.
/ old man shouts at clouds
Yeah, with the ep801, it has enough torque and power to make some gentle uphills feel like gentle downhills. You can turn small bumps into little step-up jumps, etc... In other words, its a lot of fun! I was just posting on the the Pink site about this topic, as I've been somewhat confused about these power calculations. I've seen most of these motors are quoting "nominal" power, but they have a higher rating for "peak" power, however i am unsure how each of those figures are calculated, and how frequently and for how long "peak" power is available. For a motor like a Fazua, where you push a button to get extra power for a finite amount of time, it is pretty clear cut, but for other motors where you can put them in their highest setting, like level 7 on the ep801, and leave it there, I am unclear how the motor is metering out power.
The motor rattle is just building them loose enough that they can be pedaled easily with the motor off. They can tighten them up, and make...
The motor rattle is just building them loose enough that they can be pedaled easily with the motor off. They can tighten them up, and make them all stop rattling.
The only motor that pedals freely AND has no rattle is the F60.
That said, I cared about this a lot when I was shopping for my first e-bike, but no longer care about pedaling with the motor off.
I'm not quite sure about that man. Building the motors with looser tolerances may exacerbate the noise and resonance of the rattle, but fundamentally the rattle is caused by the chain flailing around and repeatedly engaging the motor clutch. It's somewhat akin to how some wheels will make a lot of noise when you ratchet pedal. Maybe tighter (and higher friction) tolerances would damp the noise more, but the constant and repeated engaging of the clutch is going to happen either way.
I'm glad the F60 (which is exclusively on Forestal bikes, but has a family resemblance to Bafang motors, as Bafang is their manufacturing partner) doesn't rattle. I also have not noticed a rattle on the Specialized full power motors, which are made by Brose, and the explanation I heard for that is they use belts in some places that Bosch and Shimano use hard gear interfaces, and the belts help to damp noise. Not sure if that is true or not.
The new Bosch CX motors claim to have introduced some sort of decoupler, so that the chain yanking on the chainring when coasting does not engage the clutch. I haven't laid hands on one, but am curious to do so, because if they actually do what it sounds like they do, they'd act similarly to an O-chain. I am not sure how DJI has achieved their improvement in rattling. All I know was that a review of the latest models referenced that something had been done to stop the rattle between the first models shown to the press, and the latest ones.
I also don't know how either the Bosch or DJI anti rattle methods relate to "power off friction" but, at least from their description, the Bosch method is an additional coupling, not a simple change in tolerances. I would hope to never have to pedal an e-bike with the power off, although it does happen from time to time with electronic equipment failures. For me, its a bonus if the motor is low friction with the power off, and it does give some peace of mind, but I'd never do it for any substantial amount of time unless I had to.
That's very true, the ride of the bike overall is really the key thing, and it would be a mistake to get crappy bike just because...
That's very true, the ride of the bike overall is really the key thing, and it would be a mistake to get crappy bike just because it has a top notch motor on it.
Having said that, I am very much looking forward to when we have "Full Power" bikes at "SL" bike weight, and the DJI motor/battery (and also the new Bosch CX and their lighter batteries) are both big steps forward in achieving that. I recently was able to get in some riding swapping back and forth between a full power Shimano bike, and a Bosch SX bike. Even though the SX is one of the more powerful light weight models, the difference in torque was noticeable. The extra torque of the Shimano was very welcome on technical climbing where a lower cadence is required to avoid pedal strikes and for balance. It was also nice on flat but twisty terrain where the Shimano could help boost you from corner to corner, turning what would have been a pretty boring section of trail on a 50lb bike into almost a DH sort of experience. Granted, for people who are doing more "winch and plummet" type riding, with the climbs mostly done on fire roads, and the descents mostly gravity powered on singletrack, the extra torque wouldn't really matter.
Just FYI, apparently DJI has also cured their motor rattle (as Bosch did on their newest gen CX) between when the initial DJI protos were shown and when the production Amflow bikes started being sent out. That is pretty damn impressive that they came up with a solution to the rattle complaints of early testers in a few months, when it took Bosch several years, and Shimano still hasn't fixed it.
The motor rattle is just building them loose enough that they can be pedaled easily with the motor off. They can tighten them up, and make...
The motor rattle is just building them loose enough that they can be pedaled easily with the motor off. They can tighten them up, and make them all stop rattling.
The only motor that pedals freely AND has no rattle is the F60.
That said, I cared about this a lot when I was shopping for my first e-bike, but no longer care about pedaling with the motor off.
I think most Relay owners have come to the same conclusion--the only time you'll ever pedal an ebike off is when there's an electrical malfunction or...
I think most Relay owners have come to the same conclusion--the only time you'll ever pedal an ebike off is when there's an electrical malfunction or the battery runs out (both are worst-case scenarios); otherwise, no one with an ebike really cares how it pedals without assistance. Unassisted pedaling performance should not factor into an ebike purchase at all.
Idk with my around 1 kg lighter e8000 bike I always saved battery in slight descents or flat fireroads. With the heavier Levo that's not possible. I think it must be mainly the weight because the tires are the same.
How are these proposed new e-MTBs with > 100Nm even still Class 1 bikes in the USA? Class 1 is 750 Watts (1 HP). Are they...
How are these proposed new e-MTBs with > 100Nm even still Class 1 bikes in the USA? Class 1 is 750 Watts (1 HP). Are they cutting off at 70-75 RPM or just ignoring the classification?
60 Nm that pedal at a normal bike cadence and a big, light battery is what appeals to me. And quiet. My EP801 has more power in boost than I ever want except in injury recovery mode on dirt roads.
/ old man shouts at clouds
I'm with you. I feel the power of ep801 is adequate, give me lighter and/or higher capacity batteries and longer lasting motors. Design them so I can work on them, hate that I'm tethered to a shop to service them, at least the simple stuff.
BC Bike Race is adding an E version to next year’s event. The regular and E races will run concurrently but won’t interfere with each other. I was somewhat intrigued until I read that you can’t charge your bike at the basecamp, which is the camping situation the racers stay in every night between stages. Also, e-bikes can’t be shuttled with the other bikes due to weight. For $1600, I feel like I could create my own BC adventure—their megavolt event, which has charging capabilities seems much more appealing.
I'm not quite sure about that man. Building the motors with looser tolerances may exacerbate the noise and resonance of the rattle, but fundamentally the rattle...
I'm not quite sure about that man. Building the motors with looser tolerances may exacerbate the noise and resonance of the rattle, but fundamentally the rattle is caused by the chain flailing around and repeatedly engaging the motor clutch. It's somewhat akin to how some wheels will make a lot of noise when you ratchet pedal. Maybe tighter (and higher friction) tolerances would damp the noise more, but the constant and repeated engaging of the clutch is going to happen either way.
I'm glad the F60 (which is exclusively on Forestal bikes, but has a family resemblance to Bafang motors, as Bafang is their manufacturing partner) doesn't rattle. I also have not noticed a rattle on the Specialized full power motors, which are made by Brose, and the explanation I heard for that is they use belts in some places that Bosch and Shimano use hard gear interfaces, and the belts help to damp noise. Not sure if that is true or not.
The new Bosch CX motors claim to have introduced some sort of decoupler, so that the chain yanking on the chainring when coasting does not engage the clutch. I haven't laid hands on one, but am curious to do so, because if they actually do what it sounds like they do, they'd act similarly to an O-chain. I am not sure how DJI has achieved their improvement in rattling. All I know was that a review of the latest models referenced that something had been done to stop the rattle between the first models shown to the press, and the latest ones.
I also don't know how either the Bosch or DJI anti rattle methods relate to "power off friction" but, at least from their description, the Bosch method is an additional coupling, not a simple change in tolerances. I would hope to never have to pedal an e-bike with the power off, although it does happen from time to time with electronic equipment failures. For me, its a bonus if the motor is low friction with the power off, and it does give some peace of mind, but I'd never do it for any substantial amount of time unless I had to.
Regarding the rattle vs. pedaling, just going off what Troyden (co-owner of Crestine) said in his latest WWC interview.
When I say F60, I'm referring to the Fazua 60.
The original Forestal just uses a rebadged Bafang M820 (pretty sure that's the model designation, but it' definitely a Bafang).
Can you point me to a source for this info: The new Bosch CX motors claim to have introduced some sort of decoupler, so that the chain yanking on the chainring when coasting does not engage the clutch.
The dji seems to rattle like the e8000: only in really rough sections and depending on the frame. Will be interesting how loud it is in the forbidden bike.
Shimano truly seems to have made the motors more prone to rattle while trying to make the clutch mechanism more efficient. Which is a shame because I would have been able to buy a light full power emtb like the orbea rise.
I'm not quite sure about that man. Building the motors with looser tolerances may exacerbate the noise and resonance of the rattle, but fundamentally the rattle...
I'm not quite sure about that man. Building the motors with looser tolerances may exacerbate the noise and resonance of the rattle, but fundamentally the rattle is caused by the chain flailing around and repeatedly engaging the motor clutch. It's somewhat akin to how some wheels will make a lot of noise when you ratchet pedal. Maybe tighter (and higher friction) tolerances would damp the noise more, but the constant and repeated engaging of the clutch is going to happen either way.
I'm glad the F60 (which is exclusively on Forestal bikes, but has a family resemblance to Bafang motors, as Bafang is their manufacturing partner) doesn't rattle. I also have not noticed a rattle on the Specialized full power motors, which are made by Brose, and the explanation I heard for that is they use belts in some places that Bosch and Shimano use hard gear interfaces, and the belts help to damp noise. Not sure if that is true or not.
The new Bosch CX motors claim to have introduced some sort of decoupler, so that the chain yanking on the chainring when coasting does not engage the clutch. I haven't laid hands on one, but am curious to do so, because if they actually do what it sounds like they do, they'd act similarly to an O-chain. I am not sure how DJI has achieved their improvement in rattling. All I know was that a review of the latest models referenced that something had been done to stop the rattle between the first models shown to the press, and the latest ones.
I also don't know how either the Bosch or DJI anti rattle methods relate to "power off friction" but, at least from their description, the Bosch method is an additional coupling, not a simple change in tolerances. I would hope to never have to pedal an e-bike with the power off, although it does happen from time to time with electronic equipment failures. For me, its a bonus if the motor is low friction with the power off, and it does give some peace of mind, but I'd never do it for any substantial amount of time unless I had to.
Video of the Bosch motor decoupling below.
I'm not that smart, but what I see is Rob is spinning the crankshaft that's attached to the cranks/ pedals freely. What we would need to see is him rotating the inner silver gearset rearwards (the chainring) and it remains independent of the crankshaft. Pretty sure it's got a 1-way sprag clutch in there so it isn't possible for the chain ring to rotate backwards independent of the cranks, which would effectively eliminate PK.
I'm not quite sure about that man. Building the motors with looser tolerances may exacerbate the noise and resonance of the rattle, but fundamentally the rattle...
I'm not quite sure about that man. Building the motors with looser tolerances may exacerbate the noise and resonance of the rattle, but fundamentally the rattle is caused by the chain flailing around and repeatedly engaging the motor clutch. It's somewhat akin to how some wheels will make a lot of noise when you ratchet pedal. Maybe tighter (and higher friction) tolerances would damp the noise more, but the constant and repeated engaging of the clutch is going to happen either way.
I'm glad the F60 (which is exclusively on Forestal bikes, but has a family resemblance to Bafang motors, as Bafang is their manufacturing partner) doesn't rattle. I also have not noticed a rattle on the Specialized full power motors, which are made by Brose, and the explanation I heard for that is they use belts in some places that Bosch and Shimano use hard gear interfaces, and the belts help to damp noise. Not sure if that is true or not.
The new Bosch CX motors claim to have introduced some sort of decoupler, so that the chain yanking on the chainring when coasting does not engage the clutch. I haven't laid hands on one, but am curious to do so, because if they actually do what it sounds like they do, they'd act similarly to an O-chain. I am not sure how DJI has achieved their improvement in rattling. All I know was that a review of the latest models referenced that something had been done to stop the rattle between the first models shown to the press, and the latest ones.
I also don't know how either the Bosch or DJI anti rattle methods relate to "power off friction" but, at least from their description, the Bosch method is an additional coupling, not a simple change in tolerances. I would hope to never have to pedal an e-bike with the power off, although it does happen from time to time with electronic equipment failures. For me, its a bonus if the motor is low friction with the power off, and it does give some peace of mind, but I'd never do it for any substantial amount of time unless I had to.
Video of the Bosch motor decoupling below. I'm not that smart, but what I see is Rob is spinning the crankshaft that's attached to the cranks/ pedals...
Video of the Bosch motor decoupling below.
I'm not that smart, but what I see is Rob is spinning the crankshaft that's attached to the cranks/ pedals freely. What we would need to see is him rotating the inner silver gearset rearwards (the chainring) and it remains independent of the crankshaft. Pretty sure it's got a 1-way sprag clutch in there so it isn't possible for the chain ring to rotate backwards independent of the cranks, which would effectively eliminate PK.
I had not seen that video, thanks for posting it! I saw an earlier post in which you asked about my source for the "decoupling" claim. That vid you found is actually more detailed than anything I have seen, but every launch article on the CX motor seemed to mention it. From the Vital article when the new Gen 5 CX motor dropped, they said "When riding downhill, the external drivetrain (chain, chainring, cassette) is decoupled from the internal drivetrain (freewheel, gearbox, motor). This further reduces the mechanical noise generated by comparable drive units on the trail."
It strikes me as weird that all the press is basically describing it as working like an o-chain when talking about how it quiets the bike, but no one is actually discussing any pedal kick effects. Given that pedal kick is a pretty hot topic these days, I am suspicious that these "decoupling" claims are a bit overblown, but like you, I remain hopeful. That video was so damn close to answering this question, when he was spinning the cutaway motor parts, if he had just grabbed the chainring spline right next to the spindle spline he kept rotating!
Regarding the F60 misunderstanding, yeah, I have also heard the Fazuas are quite quiet.
The dji seems to rattle like the e8000: only in really rough sections and depending on the frame. Will be interesting how loud it is in...
The dji seems to rattle like the e8000: only in really rough sections and depending on the frame. Will be interesting how loud it is in the forbidden bike.
Shimano truly seems to have made the motors more prone to rattle while trying to make the clutch mechanism more efficient. Which is a shame because I would have been able to buy a light full power emtb like the orbea rise.
The early DJI reviews definitely talked about a rattle, but I was basing my claim on a statement made in a review of the Amflow from October which claimed they have updated the motor already, to eliminate the rattle, although there is no mention of the method used (https://www.mbr.co.uk/reviews/electric-bikes/amflow-pl-carbon-pro-review):
"While DJI and Amflow are new to the bike market, they are quick learners. Drawing on feedback from a wide range of sources, they are extremely agile, turning around updates to the motor and software in days and weeks, not the typical months or years experienced with the big suppliers such as Shimano and Bosch. For example, in July they received feedback about the motor rattle when coasting. By September they had found a fix, made a new batch of motors, and fitted them to the demo bikes. And it’s also clear that they are very serious about making this new venture work. This is not a flash in the pan."
I had not seen that video, thanks for posting it! I saw an earlier post in which you asked about my source for the "decoupling" claim...
I had not seen that video, thanks for posting it! I saw an earlier post in which you asked about my source for the "decoupling" claim. That vid you found is actually more detailed than anything I have seen, but every launch article on the CX motor seemed to mention it. From the Vital article when the new Gen 5 CX motor dropped, they said "When riding downhill, the external drivetrain (chain, chainring, cassette) is decoupled from the internal drivetrain (freewheel, gearbox, motor). This further reduces the mechanical noise generated by comparable drive units on the trail."
It strikes me as weird that all the press is basically describing it as working like an o-chain when talking about how it quiets the bike, but no one is actually discussing any pedal kick effects. Given that pedal kick is a pretty hot topic these days, I am suspicious that these "decoupling" claims are a bit overblown, but like you, I remain hopeful. That video was so damn close to answering this question, when he was spinning the cutaway motor parts, if he had just grabbed the chainring spline right next to the spindle spline he kept rotating!
Regarding the F60 misunderstanding, yeah, I have also heard the Fazuas are quite quiet.
"When riding downhill, the external drivetrain (chain, chainring, cassette) is decoupled from the internal drivetrain (freewheel, gearbox, motor)"
Suspect that the reality is that the external drivetrain needs to decouple from the 'cranks', 'not the internal drivetrain', to effectively reduce PK.
Thank you!
The obsession with the fastest motor really has gotten out of hand.
PS. That said, Forbidden has announced an E-Druid and an E-Dreadnaught utilizing the Avinox motor.
More speed and power!
Looks to be DJI. Competition for the current market can only be good for us consumers.
For the most part I think the current crop of ebikes are pretty close to the right mix of weight, power and performance. A solid frame will always be important. This is where I think future manufacturers who miss the mark and will try to cover up with more power. There's also reliability, a variable that seems mostly skipped over in this new market.
What's really interesting about Forbidden is that their frames get nothing but praise. Drop in a current generation Shimano and it would be amazing. They also sell their current models as frame only. I hope this continues with their new ebikes, and others follow. I do not need a bigger parts bin for all of these take-offs from full builds.
I love it when my sources deliver 😀
That's very true, the ride of the bike overall is really the key thing, and it would be a mistake to get crappy bike just because it has a top notch motor on it.
Having said that, I am very much looking forward to when we have "Full Power" bikes at "SL" bike weight, and the DJI motor/battery (and also the new Bosch CX and their lighter batteries) are both big steps forward in achieving that. I recently was able to get in some riding swapping back and forth between a full power Shimano bike, and a Bosch SX bike. Even though the SX is one of the more powerful light weight models, the difference in torque was noticeable. The extra torque of the Shimano was very welcome on technical climbing where a lower cadence is required to avoid pedal strikes and for balance. It was also nice on flat but twisty terrain where the Shimano could help boost you from corner to corner, turning what would have been a pretty boring section of trail on a 50lb bike into almost a DH sort of experience. Granted, for people who are doing more "winch and plummet" type riding, with the climbs mostly done on fire roads, and the descents mostly gravity powered on singletrack, the extra torque wouldn't really matter.
Just FYI, apparently DJI has also cured their motor rattle (as Bosch did on their newest gen CX) between when the initial DJI protos were shown and when the production Amflow bikes started being sent out. That is pretty damn impressive that they came up with a solution to the rattle complaints of early testers in a few months, when it took Bosch several years, and Shimano still hasn't fixed it.
OK hookem34, the PB article just dropped on the Forbidden/DJI bike. Clearly you know more than you were letting on. I know there's probably a carefully planned trickle marketing campaign planned but, fess up, what are the deets? I want travel and weight figures at minimum!😉
P.S. That seems like a real coup for Forbidden to be the first 3d party to use the DJI motor, so props to them! I wonder is it is a "DJI being selective and wanting to keep a premium/boutique image of their product" sort of thing, or is it a "small companies like Forbidden are more nimble and can shift to a new direction faster than the big guys" sort of thing?
...or larger companies cant be risky enough to invest into partnership with a company from mainland China that might be banned from the US market (entirely or in parts)
... or larger companies have business contracts with the current manufacturers that span years and have amendments for future deals
... or larger companies don't want to jump the ship too fast to have an unproven yet tech for their flagships
I'm not in any way against DJI, but those kinds of questions are likely to be answered positively by smaller companies
Believe what you want from an unknown source
https://www.mountainbikescanada.com/forbidden-bikes-models-2025-new-edr…
Both bikes seem kinda heavy compared to the Avinox.
The Avinox is the motor's name, not the bike,which is called Amflow PL
For weight,the Amflow weighs 19.3 with the 600wh battery,in the same ball park as the Forbbiden with 600wh.
The 170/180 version with 800wh weighs more but surely with much burlier components than the PL with 800wh battery and more robust frame.
But it has even less travel than the avinox and the long travel bike seems to weigh a tad less than a levo which can be bumped to 165mm travel with a cascade link.
It will be interesting to see if there will be avinox bikes with removable batteries because I think the weight saving come also from the battery being non removable so it can be designed lighter.
The motor rattle is just building them loose enough that they can be pedaled easily with the motor off. They can tighten them up, and make them all stop rattling.
The only motor that pedals freely AND has no rattle is the F60.
That said, I cared about this a lot when I was shopping for my first e-bike, but no longer care about pedaling with the motor off.
I don't believe that the E-Druid will weigh 43#s, a full 5#s less than the E-Dreadnaught, but I hope that I am wrong, and it is that light.
But idler bikes are inherently heavier. They also behave like they have more travel. So, would I prefer to have a 43# Avinox 150/ 160 e-Druid? Definitely. But I feel I'd be content with the bike at 140/ 150. Geo and quality of suspension are more important after all.
I am enjoying my Relay for certain, but technology marches on for sure and this space is advancing rapidly.
I think most Relay owners have come to the same conclusion--the only time you'll ever pedal an ebike off is when there's an electrical malfunction or the battery runs out (both are worst-case scenarios); otherwise, no one with an ebike really cares how it pedals without assistance. Unassisted pedaling performance should not factor into an ebike purchase at all.
when solid state batteries, gearbox's and 5 yr warranties happen, the ebike world will be unstoppable. I still think you'll need a non-ebike in your arsenal as well.
How are these proposed new e-MTBs with > 100Nm even still Class 1 bikes in the USA? Class 1 is 750 Watts (1 HP). Are they cutting off at 70-75 RPM or just ignoring the classification?
60 Nm that pedal at a normal bike cadence and a big, light battery is what appeals to me. And quiet. My EP801 has more power in boost than I ever want except in injury recovery mode on dirt roads.
/ old man shouts at clouds
Yeah, with the ep801, it has enough torque and power to make some gentle uphills feel like gentle downhills. You can turn small bumps into little step-up jumps, etc... In other words, its a lot of fun! I was just posting on the the Pink site about this topic, as I've been somewhat confused about these power calculations. I've seen most of these motors are quoting "nominal" power, but they have a higher rating for "peak" power, however i am unsure how each of those figures are calculated, and how frequently and for how long "peak" power is available. For a motor like a Fazua, where you push a button to get extra power for a finite amount of time, it is pretty clear cut, but for other motors where you can put them in their highest setting, like level 7 on the ep801, and leave it there, I am unclear how the motor is metering out power.
I'm not quite sure about that man. Building the motors with looser tolerances may exacerbate the noise and resonance of the rattle, but fundamentally the rattle is caused by the chain flailing around and repeatedly engaging the motor clutch. It's somewhat akin to how some wheels will make a lot of noise when you ratchet pedal. Maybe tighter (and higher friction) tolerances would damp the noise more, but the constant and repeated engaging of the clutch is going to happen either way.
I'm glad the F60 (which is exclusively on Forestal bikes, but has a family resemblance to Bafang motors, as Bafang is their manufacturing partner) doesn't rattle. I also have not noticed a rattle on the Specialized full power motors, which are made by Brose, and the explanation I heard for that is they use belts in some places that Bosch and Shimano use hard gear interfaces, and the belts help to damp noise. Not sure if that is true or not.
The new Bosch CX motors claim to have introduced some sort of decoupler, so that the chain yanking on the chainring when coasting does not engage the clutch. I haven't laid hands on one, but am curious to do so, because if they actually do what it sounds like they do, they'd act similarly to an O-chain. I am not sure how DJI has achieved their improvement in rattling. All I know was that a review of the latest models referenced that something had been done to stop the rattle between the first models shown to the press, and the latest ones.
I also don't know how either the Bosch or DJI anti rattle methods relate to "power off friction" but, at least from their description, the Bosch method is an additional coupling, not a simple change in tolerances. I would hope to never have to pedal an e-bike with the power off, although it does happen from time to time with electronic equipment failures. For me, its a bonus if the motor is low friction with the power off, and it does give some peace of mind, but I'd never do it for any substantial amount of time unless I had to.
Its not true. Rattle free Bosch Gen5 is more efficient than rattling Gen4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1C-78AhA1I&t=1531s
Idk with my around 1 kg lighter e8000 bike I always saved battery in slight descents or flat fireroads. With the heavier Levo that's not possible. I think it must be mainly the weight because the tires are the same.
BC Bike Race is adding an E version to next year’s event. The regular and E races will run concurrently but won’t interfere with each other. I was somewhat intrigued until I read that you can’t charge your bike at the basecamp, which is the camping situation the racers stay in every night between stages. Also, e-bikes can’t be shuttled with the other bikes due to weight. For $1600, I feel like I could create my own BC adventure—their megavolt event, which has charging capabilities seems much more appealing.
https://bcbikerace.com
You charge me 1600 bucks you charge my bike!
Haha! Agreed!
1600 bucks to simulate pedal spinning and racing lole
Regarding the rattle vs. pedaling, just going off what Troyden (co-owner of Crestine) said in his latest WWC interview.
When I say F60, I'm referring to the Fazua 60.
The original Forestal just uses a rebadged Bafang M820 (pretty sure that's the model designation, but it' definitely a Bafang).
Can you point me to a source for this info: The new Bosch CX motors claim to have introduced some sort of decoupler, so that the chain yanking on the chainring when coasting does not engage the clutch.
Thanks
The dji seems to rattle like the e8000: only in really rough sections and depending on the frame. Will be interesting how loud it is in the forbidden bike.
Shimano truly seems to have made the motors more prone to rattle while trying to make the clutch mechanism more efficient. Which is a shame because I would have been able to buy a light full power emtb like the orbea rise.
Video of the Bosch motor decoupling below.
I'm not that smart, but what I see is Rob is spinning the crankshaft that's attached to the cranks/ pedals freely. What we would need to see is him rotating the inner silver gearset rearwards (the chainring) and it remains independent of the crankshaft. Pretty sure it's got a 1-way sprag clutch in there so it isn't possible for the chain ring to rotate backwards independent of the cranks, which would effectively eliminate PK.
Hope I'm wrong though.
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I had not seen that video, thanks for posting it! I saw an earlier post in which you asked about my source for the "decoupling" claim. That vid you found is actually more detailed than anything I have seen, but every launch article on the CX motor seemed to mention it. From the Vital article when the new Gen 5 CX motor dropped, they said "When riding downhill, the external drivetrain (chain, chainring, cassette) is decoupled from the internal drivetrain (freewheel, gearbox, motor). This further reduces the mechanical noise generated by comparable drive units on the trail."
It strikes me as weird that all the press is basically describing it as working like an o-chain when talking about how it quiets the bike, but no one is actually discussing any pedal kick effects. Given that pedal kick is a pretty hot topic these days, I am suspicious that these "decoupling" claims are a bit overblown, but like you, I remain hopeful. That video was so damn close to answering this question, when he was spinning the cutaway motor parts, if he had just grabbed the chainring spline right next to the spindle spline he kept rotating!
Regarding the F60 misunderstanding, yeah, I have also heard the Fazuas are quite quiet.
The early DJI reviews definitely talked about a rattle, but I was basing my claim on a statement made in a review of the Amflow from October which claimed they have updated the motor already, to eliminate the rattle, although there is no mention of the method used (https://www.mbr.co.uk/reviews/electric-bikes/amflow-pl-carbon-pro-review):
"While DJI and Amflow are new to the bike market, they are quick learners. Drawing on feedback from a wide range of sources, they are extremely agile, turning around updates to the motor and software in days and weeks, not the typical months or years experienced with the big suppliers such as Shimano and Bosch. For example, in July they received feedback about the motor rattle when coasting. By September they had found a fix, made a new batch of motors, and fitted them to the demo bikes. And it’s also clear that they are very serious about making this new venture work. This is not a flash in the pan."
"When riding downhill, the external drivetrain (chain, chainring, cassette) is decoupled from the internal drivetrain (freewheel, gearbox, motor)"
Suspect that the reality is that the external drivetrain needs to decouple from the 'cranks', 'not the internal drivetrain', to effectively reduce PK.
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