@TheSuspensionLabNZ Have you ever tested (dyno or other) a Rockshox or Fox damper after 200hrs of use? I've (and many of my friends) have always wondered...
@TheSuspensionLabNZ Have you ever tested (dyno or other) a Rockshox or Fox damper after 200hrs of use? I've (and many of my friends) have always wondered what 'happens' to a modern Charger 3.0 or Fox Grip2 damper when it's ridden beyond the 200hrs service interval. Does it gain more damping and therefore is harsher, or is it losing damping ability because of air ingestion, etc.? People understand the reason for and can feel the benefits of a lower leg service> However, a more costly damper service often isn't noticeable by mortals and it makes it hard to understand what benefit, in terms of riding feel, is occurring from the service.
Yup for sure - the main thing that happens is air ingestion or oil leakage which presents in a few different ways-
-appears "fine" but softer/less support, bottoms easily
-softer but also laggy which feels harsher in choppy terrain, but maybe ok the rest of the time
-Cavitation, which is either a sharp knock on compression or violent top out. This is not the same as being aerated, and is caused by a lack of pressure or vacuum in the cartridge
This ideally takes longer than 200hrs to happen, so the best scenario is you don't feel any difference - once a fork reaches this state it can degrade pretty rapidly which rides awful and can cause further damage. Pretty common for grip2 dampers to be low on oil in less than 100 hours though. So you won't always feel a difference from the damper service, and if it hasn't leaked the damping levels will be similar but I still highly recommend people get them done as they will reduce the chance of major problems in the future.
HUGE thanks for taking the time to post all of this. I may actually understand a decent chunk of it.The speeds-that-actually-matter was a huge help. I've...
HUGE thanks for taking the time to post all of this. I may actually understand a decent chunk of it.
The speeds-that-actually-matter was a huge help. I've read and got notes about speeds, and what you're saying totally checks out. But I probably would have missed it if you hadn't pointed it out. Again, I think with a little education avid riders could attain a level of understanding that would empower us to call BS on this sort of thing. Doesn't seem all that different from looking at anti-squat curves for different cogs, where a consumer-level understanding of what's going on with those curves isn't rocket science.
On Ohlins, it's fascinating to me that the difference in the two trail, non-lock-out adjusters is pushing 100N at 1m/s. But then if you go look at the settings bank, at 1m/s all the lines seem to fall within 50N of each other. Even at very high shaft speeds for a non-pro rider on a rear shock, the force difference between a lot of those settings bank curves isn't much more than 50N. I'm not sure whether that adjuster is affecting a huge shift or those different tunes aren't actually that different - maybe some of both? Regardless, it seems really strange to me that for a big chunk of common shaft speeds, a single click on the HSC adjuster moves you a couple of tunes. Seems like it ought to be the other way around.
At 215-220 geared up with a hip pack and still a decently aggressive rider, I've always worried about Ohlins because of a generic damper tune and only two clicks of HSC. Looking at the 3.1 and very roughly converting rear shafts speeds to fork speeds by multiplying by 2.5 to compare 1m/s, you'd be looking at about 40"/s. If we generously call that range 20lbs, then the four clicks of HSC on the 3.1 is providing close to 100N of adjustment.
So with Ohlin's 2 clicks compared to 5 clicks, maybe I wouldn't be giving up overall range, but rather finer jumps in compression adjustment. But I would be getting a damper that might be considered less gimmicky (and would let me enjoy being subtly elitist and condescending to all my riding buddies
). However, I worry I'm missing something, because all the reviews consistently describe Ohlins as more heavily damped, but maybe that's compared to the 3.0 and prior versions. It seems like both Fox and RS both have recently upped the available compression damping.
All of this is at best a semi-educated guess because of my lack of knowledge and the fact I'm using a single screen to eyeball shock and fork graphs with different units. But even it's a bit (or even a lot) off, it reinforces my belief that if manufacturers (or someone else) would provide this info and websites would write about it, a good chunk of avid riders could learn enough to make better purchasing decisions.
I think where all this leaves me is about a week or two away from convincing myself to buy the new Motion Instruments DAQ. Seems like the process would be fun and it would be a purchase that would actually improve performance and fun on the bike.
Weight has very little to do with compression damping. If the sag/spring is set correctly the damper shouldn’t see much difference in force between different weights. Rebound...
Weight has very little to do with compression damping. If the sag/spring is set correctly the damper shouldn’t see much difference in force between different weights.
Rebound needs have a large range as it is resisting the extension caused the spring.
Weight absolutely matters when it comes to compression damping - imagine 2 weights (a light one and heavy one) hanging from springs, which proportional in rate to the mass of the objects. If you pull them down the same distance and let go, they will both bounce up and down at the same frequency. Now if you try to stop them both bouncing, the heavy object will take more effort (work) from you than the light one, and that is exactly what your dampers are doing on the bike
Yup for sure - the main thing that happens is air ingestion or oil leakage which presents in a few different ways--appears "fine" but softer/less support...
Yup for sure - the main thing that happens is air ingestion or oil leakage which presents in a few different ways-
-appears "fine" but softer/less support, bottoms easily
-softer but also laggy which feels harsher in choppy terrain, but maybe ok the rest of the time
-Cavitation, which is either a sharp knock on compression or violent top out. This is not the same as being aerated, and is caused by a lack of pressure or vacuum in the cartridge
This ideally takes longer than 200hrs to happen, so the best scenario is you don't feel any difference - once a fork reaches this state it can degrade pretty rapidly which rides awful and can cause further damage. Pretty common for grip2 dampers to be low on oil in less than 100 hours though. So you won't always feel a difference from the damper service, and if it hasn't leaked the damping levels will be similar but I still highly recommend people get them done as they will reduce the chance of major problems in the future.
HUGE thanks for taking the time to post all of this. I may actually understand a decent chunk of it.The speeds-that-actually-matter was a huge help. I've...
HUGE thanks for taking the time to post all of this. I may actually understand a decent chunk of it.
The speeds-that-actually-matter was a huge help. I've read and got notes about speeds, and what you're saying totally checks out. But I probably would have missed it if you hadn't pointed it out. Again, I think with a little education avid riders could attain a level of understanding that would empower us to call BS on this sort of thing. Doesn't seem all that different from looking at anti-squat curves for different cogs, where a consumer-level understanding of what's going on with those curves isn't rocket science.
On Ohlins, it's fascinating to me that the difference in the two trail, non-lock-out adjusters is pushing 100N at 1m/s. But then if you go look at the settings bank, at 1m/s all the lines seem to fall within 50N of each other. Even at very high shaft speeds for a non-pro rider on a rear shock, the force difference between a lot of those settings bank curves isn't much more than 50N. I'm not sure whether that adjuster is affecting a huge shift or those different tunes aren't actually that different - maybe some of both? Regardless, it seems really strange to me that for a big chunk of common shaft speeds, a single click on the HSC adjuster moves you a couple of tunes. Seems like it ought to be the other way around.
At 215-220 geared up with a hip pack and still a decently aggressive rider, I've always worried about Ohlins because of a generic damper tune and only two clicks of HSC. Looking at the 3.1 and very roughly converting rear shafts speeds to fork speeds by multiplying by 2.5 to compare 1m/s, you'd be looking at about 40"/s. If we generously call that range 20lbs, then the four clicks of HSC on the 3.1 is providing close to 100N of adjustment.
So with Ohlin's 2 clicks compared to 5 clicks, maybe I wouldn't be giving up overall range, but rather finer jumps in compression adjustment. But I would be getting a damper that might be considered less gimmicky (and would let me enjoy being subtly elitist and condescending to all my riding buddies
). However, I worry I'm missing something, because all the reviews consistently describe Ohlins as more heavily damped, but maybe that's compared to the 3.0 and prior versions. It seems like both Fox and RS both have recently upped the available compression damping.
All of this is at best a semi-educated guess because of my lack of knowledge and the fact I'm using a single screen to eyeball shock and fork graphs with different units. But even it's a bit (or even a lot) off, it reinforces my belief that if manufacturers (or someone else) would provide this info and websites would write about it, a good chunk of avid riders could learn enough to make better purchasing decisions.
I think where all this leaves me is about a week or two away from convincing myself to buy the new Motion Instruments DAQ. Seems like the process would be fun and it would be a purchase that would actually improve performance and fun on the bike.
Weight has very little to do with compression damping. If the sag/spring is set correctly the damper shouldn’t see much difference in force between different weights. Rebound...
Weight has very little to do with compression damping. If the sag/spring is set correctly the damper shouldn’t see much difference in force between different weights.
Rebound needs have a large range as it is resisting the extension caused the spring.
Weight absolutely matters when it comes to compression damping - imagine 2 weights (a light one and heavy one) hanging from springs, which proportional in rate...
Weight absolutely matters when it comes to compression damping - imagine 2 weights (a light one and heavy one) hanging from springs, which proportional in rate to the mass of the objects. If you pull them down the same distance and let go, they will both bounce up and down at the same frequency. Now if you try to stop them both bouncing, the heavy object will take more effort (work) from you than the light one, and that is exactly what your dampers are doing on the bike
No they should take the same amount of force to stop as you said they are proportional.
There is a reason suspension manufacturers don’t spec a compression based on weight but give you rebound.
For those curious, I recently installed a Charger 3.1 upgrade kit on one of my forks. What you can't really see in the graphs is that the change to the check valve made the transition from comp to reb (& vice versa) much smoother. I was running 3 clicks faster rebound than what RS suggests for my pressure, and dropped it down to 2 because it felt more reactive. The comp changes are a lot more subtle if you weren't running wide open. So far I'm running the same compression settings after bracketing around my old setup. It's definitely just an incremental change, but felt good enough that I ordered a second upgrade kit for my other bike. I wouldn't spend the full $370 or whatever for a whole damper, but the $75 upgrade kit is palatable.
Thanks for all your responses. In trying to get a deeper into suspension and really learn how things work, it's really hit home how little information...
Thanks for all your responses. In trying to get a deeper into suspension and really learn how things work, it's really hit home how little information there is, both from the manufacturers and the after-market tuners. It seems similar to if fame manufacturers eliminating geometry charts and instead offering a few hyperbolic, cliche-filled paragraphs about how the bike rides.
This is correct. I'm always impressed by how uninterested brands are in educating their customers. Once a chart becomes standard issue, i.e. geometry chart, anti-squat chart...
This is correct. I'm always impressed by how uninterested brands are in educating their customers. Once a chart becomes standard issue, i.e. geometry chart, anti-squat chart, etc, then brands will accept it and publish it, but their general goal is to play keep-away with as much information as possible. I guess that's the hole that journalism, bike shops, and the internet are supposed to fill.
Seems like there is a lot of smoke and mirrors in the mtb suspension world, so it's beneficial for the customer to be ignorant. When the reality is that a Monotube Shock and a Showa Twin Chamber Fork architecture (identical to what all motocross bikes use) with a tune specific to the rider/chassis is superior to any of the adjustable gimmicks that RS and Fox keep trying to shove down our throats, ignorance is bliss for them.
I found with the Charger 3 that almost closing the HSC and using the LSC adjuster to dial in the overall damping works pretty well. I...
I found with the Charger 3 that almost closing the HSC and using the LSC adjuster to dial in the overall damping works pretty well. I just got a 3.1 upgrade kit and am hoping it gives me a few more tuning options as the HSC has more range on the stiffer end.
Yup for sure - the main thing that happens is air ingestion or oil leakage which presents in a few different ways-
-appears "fine" but softer/less support, bottoms easily
-softer but also laggy which feels harsher in choppy terrain, but maybe ok the rest of the time
-Cavitation, which is either a sharp knock on compression or violent top out. This is not the same as being aerated, and is caused by a lack of pressure or vacuum in the cartridge
This ideally takes longer than 200hrs to happen, so the best scenario is you don't feel any difference - once a fork reaches this state it can degrade pretty rapidly which rides awful and can cause further damage. Pretty common for grip2 dampers to be low on oil in less than 100 hours though. So you won't always feel a difference from the damper service, and if it hasn't leaked the damping levels will be similar but I still highly recommend people get them done as they will reduce the chance of major problems in the future.
Weight absolutely matters when it comes to compression damping - imagine 2 weights (a light one and heavy one) hanging from springs, which proportional in rate to the mass of the objects. If you pull them down the same distance and let go, they will both bounce up and down at the same frequency. Now if you try to stop them both bouncing, the heavy object will take more effort (work) from you than the light one, and that is exactly what your dampers are doing on the bike
Thanks for the info!
No they should take the same amount of force to stop as you said they are proportional.
There is a reason suspension manufacturers don’t spec a compression based on weight but give you rebound.
For those curious, I recently installed a Charger 3.1 upgrade kit on one of my forks. What you can't really see in the graphs is that the change to the check valve made the transition from comp to reb (& vice versa) much smoother. I was running 3 clicks faster rebound than what RS suggests for my pressure, and dropped it down to 2 because it felt more reactive. The comp changes are a lot more subtle if you weren't running wide open. So far I'm running the same compression settings after bracketing around my old setup. It's definitely just an incremental change, but felt good enough that I ordered a second upgrade kit for my other bike. I wouldn't spend the full $370 or whatever for a whole damper, but the $75 upgrade kit is palatable.
Seems like there is a lot of smoke and mirrors in the mtb suspension world, so it's beneficial for the customer to be ignorant. When the reality is that a Monotube Shock and a Showa Twin Chamber Fork architecture (identical to what all motocross bikes use) with a tune specific to the rider/chassis is superior to any of the adjustable gimmicks that RS and Fox keep trying to shove down our throats, ignorance is bliss for them.
interesting, any other anecdotal notes on setup? pretty close to selling mine and moving onto something else.
Post a reply to: "Inverted" LSC and HSC Circuits on Rockshox Dampers