Neko Mulally raced with a cracked frame a year ago. Super sketch. I think i'd prefer welded aluminum lugged frame vs carbon / aluminum with glue...
Neko Mulally raced with a cracked frame a year ago. Super sketch. I think i'd prefer welded aluminum lugged frame vs carbon / aluminum with glue. When has glue ever worked well on anything metal?
Glue and metal works fine. A key problem is that even the best made frames get destroyed during a WC season.
Most riders go through 3-4 frames in a season. Neko cracked 12 of his frameworks bikes in his first full season.
The commencal DH bike would barely last a quali run alone before cracking haha
Neko Mulally raced with a cracked frame a year ago. Super sketch. I think i'd prefer welded aluminum lugged frame vs carbon / aluminum with glue...
Neko Mulally raced with a cracked frame a year ago. Super sketch. I think i'd prefer welded aluminum lugged frame vs carbon / aluminum with glue. When has glue ever worked well on anything metal?
Cars, military aircraft, commercial aircraft, construction, aerospace.Alan ,Vitus (og) and Giant were doing it 30 years ago on bikes.
Neko Mulally raced with a cracked frame a year ago. Super sketch. I think i'd prefer welded aluminum lugged frame vs carbon / aluminum with glue...
Neko Mulally raced with a cracked frame a year ago. Super sketch. I think i'd prefer welded aluminum lugged frame vs carbon / aluminum with glue. When has glue ever worked well on anything metal?
Lotus cars. They are solely held by glue and some rivets. No welds. If the glue is the right for the job, the application is done the right way (most important part), the results will be predictable.
Pole bycicles are held solely by glue, but there are 4 fins on each side to increase contact area of the glue.
My gess is that both finishes in BK's bike were polished and then glued. That is a big problem, because there is almost nothing for the glue to stick to. Paint for example, needs 220grit sanding between dry coats to properly adhere.
From some pictures in this thread you can see that the Atherton lugs are rough inside the gluing part, and the pivot is polished.
Lotus cars. They are solely held by glue and some rivets. No welds. If the glue is the right for the job, the application is done...
Lotus cars. They are solely held by glue and some rivets. No welds. If the glue is the right for the job, the application is done the right way (most important part), the results will be predictable.
Pole bycicles are held solely by glue, but there are 4 fins on each side to increase contact area of the glue.
My gess is that both finishes in BK's bike were polished and then glued. That is a big problem, because there is almost nothing for the glue to stick to. Paint for example, needs 220grit sanding between dry coats to properly adhere.
From some pictures in this thread you can see that the Atherton lugs are rough inside the gluing part, and the pivot is polished.
Surface prep IS very important.
So is curing schedule.
So is fit tolerance.
Back in the day Cannondale had an issue with the chainstays of the Scalpel debonding. It was traced to a worker not rinsing their hands fully after washing them and transferring soap to the components.
Recently Partington (super expensive road wheels) had issues that were traced to the supplier of their hub slightly changing the anodizing spec without informing them.
The engineering team at Pivot are new to this construction method but they are not a load of bike shiop rejects having a go in the shed with some Krazy Glue and lengths of tube from McMaster Carr.
There is a possibly a very slim chance they know a little more than you do....
Neko Mulally raced with a cracked frame a year ago. Super sketch. I think i'd prefer welded aluminum lugged frame vs carbon / aluminum with glue...
Neko Mulally raced with a cracked frame a year ago. Super sketch. I think i'd prefer welded aluminum lugged frame vs carbon / aluminum with glue. When has glue ever worked well on anything metal?
Glue and metal works fine. A key problem is that even the best made frames get destroyed during a WC season.
Most riders go through 3-4...
Glue and metal works fine. A key problem is that even the best made frames get destroyed during a WC season.
Most riders go through 3-4 frames in a season. Neko cracked 12 of his frameworks bikes in his first full season.
The commencal DH bike would barely last a quali run alone before cracking haha
Yeah thought more people on here would know this. Frames break. Parts break. Everything breaks. Hell, if I can break stuff, then what chance does most stuff have at the hands of the world’s elite.
The reason we don’t see this more in the media is people lose their minds. There is already a witch hunt spooling up in many corners of the internet ready to pounce on Pivot. Riders keep this stuff out of the spotlight as best they can. You could even hear Sam B in the live broadcast scolding Jakob and Lachie when they start to talk about it in front of the camera.
Neko Mulally raced with a cracked frame a year ago. Super sketch. I think i'd prefer welded aluminum lugged frame vs carbon / aluminum with glue...
Neko Mulally raced with a cracked frame a year ago. Super sketch. I think i'd prefer welded aluminum lugged frame vs carbon / aluminum with glue. When has glue ever worked well on anything metal?
All of Cotic's FS bikes have the shock mount glued to the downtube. I've heard of a couple of failures, but they've been using that design for 10+ years now so probability dictates one or two will fail. There's plenty of aircraft with major assemblies held in place by glue as opposed to welds.
Yeah thought more people on here would know this. Frames break. Parts break. Everything breaks. Hell, if I can break stuff, then what chance does most...
Yeah thought more people on here would know this. Frames break. Parts break. Everything breaks. Hell, if I can break stuff, then what chance does most stuff have at the hands of the world’s elite.
The reason we don’t see this more in the media is people lose their minds. There is already a witch hunt spooling up in many corners of the internet ready to pounce on Pivot. Riders keep this stuff out of the spotlight as best they can. You could even hear Sam B in the live broadcast scolding Jakob and Lachie when they start to talk about it in front of the camera.
that said, hope BK is ok. Gnarly as hell crash.
have heard "bernard is fine," so hopefully that's the case.
i'm really surprised brands running protos in a race environment don't have a statement ready for social media before making bikes visible on the race track. "this was a prototype, we're pushing the edge of technology and racing. our athletes are putting them through extreme paces and sometimes the rider out-performs the prototype. we all know the risks involved with such daring endeavors. we're making sure our athlete has all the care they need after this incident. we'll research the cause of the failure and make our next one better." maybe that's not a smart move legally or for maximum synergy, but why not, especially in this age of instant photo/video sharing and memes.
Yeah thought more people on here would know this. Frames break. Parts break. Everything breaks. Hell, if I can break stuff, then what chance does most...
Yeah thought more people on here would know this. Frames break. Parts break. Everything breaks. Hell, if I can break stuff, then what chance does most stuff have at the hands of the world’s elite.
The reason we don’t see this more in the media is people lose their minds. There is already a witch hunt spooling up in many corners of the internet ready to pounce on Pivot. Riders keep this stuff out of the spotlight as best they can. You could even hear Sam B in the live broadcast scolding Jakob and Lachie when they start to talk about it in front of the camera.
have heard "bernard is fine," so hopefully that's the case.
i'm really surprised brands running protos in a race environment don't have a statement ready for...
have heard "bernard is fine," so hopefully that's the case.
i'm really surprised brands running protos in a race environment don't have a statement ready for social media before making bikes visible on the race track. "this was a prototype, we're pushing the edge of technology and racing. our athletes are putting them through extreme paces and sometimes the rider out-performs the prototype. we all know the risks involved with such daring endeavors. we're making sure our athlete has all the care they need after this incident. we'll research the cause of the failure and make our next one better." maybe that's not a smart move legally or for maximum synergy, but why not, especially in this age of instant photo/video sharing and memes.
From what I've seen it's that ignoring something is REALLY effective... In 2024. When you think of how fast news moves, how fast peoples minds move, and how many other things will happen before the season starts. I don't even blame them. Acknowledging it is just inviting a hoard of comments on that post. Also given it's a prototype they don't have to justify what a customer is getting. I saw someone on instagram trying to make that point about 'they wont buy the frame' and the first reply was "You're not gonna be able to buy that frame anyway." lol, fairly accurate. So it somehow seems like a lose-lose if they acknowledge it and surprisingly a win-win if they ignore it. It also helps that BK, somehow, is totally ok? Obviously it's harder to ignore if he's in the hospital/missing round 1 or the entire season. Pivot is just gonna dodge and roll this and it's gonna work flawlessly. The sketchy thing is BK probably gonna be back on that same horse! I'd be pining for a Phoenix personally. I'll take 1 second back over paralyzed/dead
Yeah thought more people on here would know this. Frames break. Parts break. Everything breaks. Hell, if I can break stuff, then what chance does most...
Yeah thought more people on here would know this. Frames break. Parts break. Everything breaks. Hell, if I can break stuff, then what chance does most stuff have at the hands of the world’s elite.
The reason we don’t see this more in the media is people lose their minds. There is already a witch hunt spooling up in many corners of the internet ready to pounce on Pivot. Riders keep this stuff out of the spotlight as best they can. You could even hear Sam B in the live broadcast scolding Jakob and Lachie when they start to talk about it in front of the camera.
have heard "bernard is fine," so hopefully that's the case.
i'm really surprised brands running protos in a race environment don't have a statement ready for...
have heard "bernard is fine," so hopefully that's the case.
i'm really surprised brands running protos in a race environment don't have a statement ready for social media before making bikes visible on the race track. "this was a prototype, we're pushing the edge of technology and racing. our athletes are putting them through extreme paces and sometimes the rider out-performs the prototype. we all know the risks involved with such daring endeavors. we're making sure our athlete has all the care they need after this incident. we'll research the cause of the failure and make our next one better." maybe that's not a smart move legally or for maximum synergy, but why not, especially in this age of instant photo/video sharing and memes.
From what I've seen it's that ignoring something is REALLY effective... In 2024. When you think of how fast news moves, how fast peoples minds move...
From what I've seen it's that ignoring something is REALLY effective... In 2024. When you think of how fast news moves, how fast peoples minds move, and how many other things will happen before the season starts. I don't even blame them. Acknowledging it is just inviting a hoard of comments on that post. Also given it's a prototype they don't have to justify what a customer is getting. I saw someone on instagram trying to make that point about 'they wont buy the frame' and the first reply was "You're not gonna be able to buy that frame anyway." lol, fairly accurate. So it somehow seems like a lose-lose if they acknowledge it and surprisingly a win-win if they ignore it. It also helps that BK, somehow, is totally ok? Obviously it's harder to ignore if he's in the hospital/missing round 1 or the entire season. Pivot is just gonna dodge and roll this and it's gonna work flawlessly. The sketchy thing is BK probably gonna be back on that same horse! I'd be pining for a Phoenix personally. I'll take 1 second back over paralyzed/dead
I totally get it that it's scary when a frame breaks like that or in Supercross/MX an engine locks up off a jump. But those are freak failures. I'd imagine the company (Bike/race team/engine builder), learns from those mistakes and the rider can feel confident that the next version would be better/safer. To say a rider will depart from an entire product seems a bit extreme to me personally. Sure if he did, everyone would undertstand, but hard to think that will happen.
Hopefully we hear from BK or Pivot, just like Neko talked about the 12 frames he cracked. Neko said on Moving The Needle pod that he broke that many frames on the other brands(Trek, YT, Intense) he rode for, they just never talked about it.
have heard "bernard is fine," so hopefully that's the case.
i'm really surprised brands running protos in a race environment don't have a statement ready for...
have heard "bernard is fine," so hopefully that's the case.
i'm really surprised brands running protos in a race environment don't have a statement ready for social media before making bikes visible on the race track. "this was a prototype, we're pushing the edge of technology and racing. our athletes are putting them through extreme paces and sometimes the rider out-performs the prototype. we all know the risks involved with such daring endeavors. we're making sure our athlete has all the care they need after this incident. we'll research the cause of the failure and make our next one better." maybe that's not a smart move legally or for maximum synergy, but why not, especially in this age of instant photo/video sharing and memes.
From what I've seen it's that ignoring something is REALLY effective... In 2024. When you think of how fast news moves, how fast peoples minds move...
From what I've seen it's that ignoring something is REALLY effective... In 2024. When you think of how fast news moves, how fast peoples minds move, and how many other things will happen before the season starts. I don't even blame them. Acknowledging it is just inviting a hoard of comments on that post. Also given it's a prototype they don't have to justify what a customer is getting. I saw someone on instagram trying to make that point about 'they wont buy the frame' and the first reply was "You're not gonna be able to buy that frame anyway." lol, fairly accurate. So it somehow seems like a lose-lose if they acknowledge it and surprisingly a win-win if they ignore it. It also helps that BK, somehow, is totally ok? Obviously it's harder to ignore if he's in the hospital/missing round 1 or the entire season. Pivot is just gonna dodge and roll this and it's gonna work flawlessly. The sketchy thing is BK probably gonna be back on that same horse! I'd be pining for a Phoenix personally. I'll take 1 second back over paralyzed/dead
I totally get it that it's scary when a frame breaks like that or in Supercross/MX an engine locks up off a jump. But those are...
I totally get it that it's scary when a frame breaks like that or in Supercross/MX an engine locks up off a jump. But those are freak failures. I'd imagine the company (Bike/race team/engine builder), learns from those mistakes and the rider can feel confident that the next version would be better/safer. To say a rider will depart from an entire product seems a bit extreme to me personally. Sure if he did, everyone would undertstand, but hard to think that will happen.
Hopefully we hear from BK or Pivot, just like Neko talked about the 12 frames he cracked. Neko said on Moving The Needle pod that he broke that many frames on the other brands(Trek, YT, Intense) he rode for, they just never talked about it.
Yep. Its totally common. I do wish people could see the dumpster(s!) after a world cup weekend. One team will only run their bars for a single weekend and then its into the dumpster with them even if they are not broken.
No one riding for a major brand will be as open as Neko can be about breaking frames. Also notice that he ONLY talks about HIS frame and not about the hundreds of other products he's putting on there.
For any of you that race locally just think about the carnage on a race weekend that you see. And no one at your local races is going nearly as hard as these men and women are.
have heard "bernard is fine," so hopefully that's the case.
i'm really surprised brands running protos in a race environment don't have a statement ready for...
have heard "bernard is fine," so hopefully that's the case.
i'm really surprised brands running protos in a race environment don't have a statement ready for social media before making bikes visible on the race track. "this was a prototype, we're pushing the edge of technology and racing. our athletes are putting them through extreme paces and sometimes the rider out-performs the prototype. we all know the risks involved with such daring endeavors. we're making sure our athlete has all the care they need after this incident. we'll research the cause of the failure and make our next one better." maybe that's not a smart move legally or for maximum synergy, but why not, especially in this age of instant photo/video sharing and memes.
From what I've seen it's that ignoring something is REALLY effective... In 2024. When you think of how fast news moves, how fast peoples minds move...
From what I've seen it's that ignoring something is REALLY effective... In 2024. When you think of how fast news moves, how fast peoples minds move, and how many other things will happen before the season starts. I don't even blame them. Acknowledging it is just inviting a hoard of comments on that post. Also given it's a prototype they don't have to justify what a customer is getting. I saw someone on instagram trying to make that point about 'they wont buy the frame' and the first reply was "You're not gonna be able to buy that frame anyway." lol, fairly accurate. So it somehow seems like a lose-lose if they acknowledge it and surprisingly a win-win if they ignore it. It also helps that BK, somehow, is totally ok? Obviously it's harder to ignore if he's in the hospital/missing round 1 or the entire season. Pivot is just gonna dodge and roll this and it's gonna work flawlessly. The sketchy thing is BK probably gonna be back on that same horse! I'd be pining for a Phoenix personally. I'll take 1 second back over paralyzed/dead
I totally get it that it's scary when a frame breaks like that or in Supercross/MX an engine locks up off a jump. But those are...
I totally get it that it's scary when a frame breaks like that or in Supercross/MX an engine locks up off a jump. But those are freak failures. I'd imagine the company (Bike/race team/engine builder), learns from those mistakes and the rider can feel confident that the next version would be better/safer. To say a rider will depart from an entire product seems a bit extreme to me personally. Sure if he did, everyone would undertstand, but hard to think that will happen.
Hopefully we hear from BK or Pivot, just like Neko talked about the 12 frames he cracked. Neko said on Moving The Needle pod that he broke that many frames on the other brands(Trek, YT, Intense) he rode for, they just never talked about it.
Absolutely. We are talking about a design that handled Hardline. But this close to WC season BK is put in a tough spot. They need to address that issue. If they find it as a gluing issue then they can take solace in knowing they just can't have the same frame out too long especially in weather I suppose. But still, I do like the ideas other people have said whether its curvature in the lug like Atherton does, or even a sort of locking mechanism where you inset the tube and twist it, so that if the glue fails it more so 'comes loose' as opposed to straight up pulling out.
The idea that they would run the same frame and same risk without a change to address it would be crazy to me. I'm sure BK doesn't mind. But obvi in Pivots best interest to basically never have that happen again with this particular design. Once is flukey, twice is a problem.
Glue and metal works fine. A key problem is that even the best made frames get destroyed during a WC season.
Most riders go through 3-4...
Glue and metal works fine. A key problem is that even the best made frames get destroyed during a WC season.
Most riders go through 3-4 frames in a season. Neko cracked 12 of his frameworks bikes in his first full season.
The commencal DH bike would barely last a quali run alone before cracking haha
Interesting note about commencals, not long ago there was an interview with Monika Hrastnik (its in slovenian language so pointless to post link as nobody would understand any of it) from Dorval AM and she said that Benoit Coulanges would break literally ever part of the bike but has not managed to break a V5 yet.
Interesting note about commencals, not long ago there was an interview with Monika Hrastnik (its in slovenian language so pointless to post link as nobody would...
Interesting note about commencals, not long ago there was an interview with Monika Hrastnik (its in slovenian language so pointless to post link as nobody would understand any of it) from Dorval AM and she said that Benoit Coulanges would break literally ever part of the bike but has not managed to break a V5 yet.
It was the V4's I was referring to.
Here's a fun fact, the original Sram centreline rotors would only last 1-2 race runs before they were too thin to be safely used again. Which was a case of bad design, and teams would order 160 rotors for a season haha.
But yeah, shit brakes, brand don't get it right all the time, normally failures aren't as catastrophic as BK's but sometimes they are. I still remember Benoit (I think it was Benoit) front wheel disappearing in the rock garden at Snowshoe and he just poleaxes the ground.
Prototyping brings an element of risk, but I think overall it's necessary to push development further.
Well, in his defense, he played right up to the point people wanted to see and then cut straight to podium celebration lol. Decent troll by Ed Bull Media House but we'll never know if they just didn't want to show BK getting smashed up like that, by his request, or if thats a good ol fashion Corpo Request.
Now I'm more on Spomer's side and they need to make a damn statement but... Wow they're really playing the 'just look away' card. "Bold strategy Cotton lets see how it pays off for em..."
When they cut to the podium after bk crashed, Jake said that he had boken a fram after hitting a tree. This was followed by blenki mentioning that thats not something you should be saying live in front of the cameras.
Neko Mulally raced with a cracked frame a year ago. Super sketch. I think i'd prefer welded aluminum lugged frame vs carbon / aluminum with glue...
Neko Mulally raced with a cracked frame a year ago. Super sketch. I think i'd prefer welded aluminum lugged frame vs carbon / aluminum with glue. When has glue ever worked well on anything metal?
It’s a Proto version !
there could have been a error in the gluing preparation cleaning process
end of story! Bike’s brake all the time!
the...
It’s a Proto version !
there could have been a error in the gluing preparation cleaning process
end of story! Bike’s brake all the time!
the production version will be some of the best there is like all pivot bikes !
and yes prototyping is a part of racing development!
chill out
Chris just admitted on pinkbike that their treatment of the aluminum didn't work properly to avoid corrosion which caused the epoxy to not bond correctly. So yes. There was an error. Pivot's production bikes are good. But that gluing error could have fcuked BK up properly. No point in just dismissing it as innovation. That was a big fcuk up on Pivot's part, but props to them for admitting it and hopefully they clean up that process. They've already recalled the frames that would have been made the same way (sadly, presumably the fresh new bikes Ed and Jenna got)... And are going to test them to failure most likely.
Innovation is great. Ideally it shouldn't be at the cost of an athlete. Can't wait to see all the Pivot team members ride this year. Jakob and Dane are great.
After a preliminary investigation into the failure of the prototype frame, we have identified that there was no failure of the carbon tubes and the epoxy used to bond the frame was still intact on the carbon tube side. Unfortunately, virtually no adhesive remained bonded to the aluminum. We use a treatment on all the aluminum parts to protect from galvanic corrosion between the carbon and the aluminum. We believe there was a failure of this treatment to properly etch/adhere to the aluminum.
We have additional frames that were made in the same batch, which we will be putting through full destructive testing as well as getting all the frames from the team back that were produced at the same time. Once we have the opportunity to test these prototype frames, we will take the necessary steps to ensure that the frames are as safe as possible, and ready for the full impact of another World Cup season.
We never want to see a frame failure and certainly not a failure of this magnitude. We are incredibly thankful that Bernard was not seriously injured and are taking steps to make sure that this is not an issue in the future.— Chris Cocalis, President, Pivot Cycles
Pivot bikes? BIG TRASH, sorry to say. Look how the metal didn't even deform or anything. Entirely held together with glue, limited structural redundancy built in. That's garbage!
Also, risked BK's life with their nonsense..I would 100% leave if I were him. He's a rich British punk anyway, he'll be fine.
Neko Mulally raced with a cracked frame a year ago. Super sketch. I think i'd prefer welded aluminum lugged frame vs carbon / aluminum with glue...
Neko Mulally raced with a cracked frame a year ago. Super sketch. I think i'd prefer welded aluminum lugged frame vs carbon / aluminum with glue. When has glue ever worked well on anything metal?
From what I've seen it's that ignoring something is REALLY effective... In 2024. When you think of how fast news moves, how fast peoples minds move...
From what I've seen it's that ignoring something is REALLY effective... In 2024. When you think of how fast news moves, how fast peoples minds move, and how many other things will happen before the season starts. I don't even blame them. Acknowledging it is just inviting a hoard of comments on that post. Also given it's a prototype they don't have to justify what a customer is getting. I saw someone on instagram trying to make that point about 'they wont buy the frame' and the first reply was "You're not gonna be able to buy that frame anyway." lol, fairly accurate. So it somehow seems like a lose-lose if they acknowledge it and surprisingly a win-win if they ignore it. It also helps that BK, somehow, is totally ok? Obviously it's harder to ignore if he's in the hospital/missing round 1 or the entire season. Pivot is just gonna dodge and roll this and it's gonna work flawlessly. The sketchy thing is BK probably gonna be back on that same horse! I'd be pining for a Phoenix personally. I'll take 1 second back over paralyzed/dead
I totally get it that it's scary when a frame breaks like that or in Supercross/MX an engine locks up off a jump. But those are...
I totally get it that it's scary when a frame breaks like that or in Supercross/MX an engine locks up off a jump. But those are freak failures. I'd imagine the company (Bike/race team/engine builder), learns from those mistakes and the rider can feel confident that the next version would be better/safer. To say a rider will depart from an entire product seems a bit extreme to me personally. Sure if he did, everyone would undertstand, but hard to think that will happen.
Hopefully we hear from BK or Pivot, just like Neko talked about the 12 frames he cracked. Neko said on Moving The Needle pod that he broke that many frames on the other brands(Trek, YT, Intense) he rode for, they just never talked about it.
Yep. Its totally common. I do wish people could see the dumpster(s!) after a world cup weekend. One team will only run their bars for a...
Yep. Its totally common. I do wish people could see the dumpster(s!) after a world cup weekend. One team will only run their bars for a single weekend and then its into the dumpster with them even if they are not broken.
No one riding for a major brand will be as open as Neko can be about breaking frames. Also notice that he ONLY talks about HIS frame and not about the hundreds of other products he's putting on there.
For any of you that race locally just think about the carnage on a race weekend that you see. And no one at your local races is going nearly as hard as these men and women are.
To answer @LePigPe’s question. I think most teams are doing some kind of R&D through the season. It may not be full on frame design, but athletes are always messing with setup. They normally try to establish a baseline before the season starts. That way they can tinker between races but return to the baseline for race day. Most races are won by .1 of a second which is like what, a bikes length. You better believe that everyone is hunting for the magic.
Also you will notice that some teams will just use a single rider who is good at giving feedback to test new designs. Two years ago Finn was on the new diaper bike while Loic stayed on the old one.
Lastly some people just love for that shit. I don’t think Minnar can actually go to a race and sit still. He’s even admitted that tinkering helps keep his nerves down.
It's genuine curiosity, I won't be near any WC races for the forseeable future anyway, so that one is out of the question
I was expecting carbon to be the answer as people aren't as jumpy around aluminium.
Loic didn't take the new proto because he didn't want to switch bikes and get used to a new one mid season, he preferred to do the switch off season. Lo and behold, he did get on the diaper bike for 2023 after using the old bike for 2022.
Speaking of protos and Specialized, carbon tubes and lug construction and tubes pulling out and so on, it looks like Specialized simply riveted the tubes to the lugs for additional protection to prevent what happened to Bernard. No need to do bayonet style mechanism that will greatly complicate both the parts themselves and the construction, you can easily just drill some holes and put rivets through them before the adhesive cures and have all the security you need.
I just watched that and the race,.After qualifying first Bernard seemed way off the pace in his race run.I wonder if the de-bonding had already started and he could feel something was off.
Looking at the specializeds I wondered if they had some additional mechanical fixing.
Glue and metal works fine. A key problem is that even the best made frames get destroyed during a WC season.
Most riders go through 3-4 frames in a season. Neko cracked 12 of his frameworks bikes in his first full season.
The commencal DH bike would barely last a quali run alone before cracking haha
Cars, military aircraft, commercial aircraft, construction, aerospace.Alan ,Vitus (og) and Giant were doing it 30 years ago on bikes.
Bovril-The Atherton AM bikes areTitanium /Carbon
Lotus cars. They are solely held by glue and some rivets. No welds. If the glue is the right for the job, the application is done the right way (most important part), the results will be predictable.
Pole bycicles are held solely by glue, but there are 4 fins on each side to increase contact area of the glue.
My gess is that both finishes in BK's bike were polished and then glued. That is a big problem, because there is almost nothing for the glue to stick to. Paint for example, needs 220grit sanding between dry coats to properly adhere.
From some pictures in this thread you can see that the Atherton lugs are rough inside the gluing part, and the pivot is polished.
Surface prep IS very important.
So is curing schedule.
So is fit tolerance.
Back in the day Cannondale had an issue with the chainstays of the Scalpel debonding. It was traced to a worker not rinsing their hands fully after washing them and transferring soap to the components.
Recently Partington (super expensive road wheels) had issues that were traced to the supplier of their hub slightly changing the anodizing spec without informing them.
The engineering team at Pivot are new to this construction method but they are not a load of bike shiop rejects having a go in the shed with some Krazy Glue and lengths of tube from McMaster Carr.
There is a possibly a very slim chance they know a little more than you do....
Yeah thought more people on here would know this. Frames break. Parts break. Everything breaks. Hell, if I can break stuff, then what chance does most stuff have at the hands of the world’s elite.
The reason we don’t see this more in the media is people lose their minds. There is already a witch hunt spooling up in many corners of the internet ready to pounce on Pivot. Riders keep this stuff out of the spotlight as best they can. You could even hear Sam B in the live broadcast scolding Jakob and Lachie when they start to talk about it in front of the camera.
that said, hope BK is ok. Gnarly as hell crash.
All of Cotic's FS bikes have the shock mount glued to the downtube. I've heard of a couple of failures, but they've been using that design for 10+ years now so probability dictates one or two will fail. There's plenty of aircraft with major assemblies held in place by glue as opposed to welds.
have heard "bernard is fine," so hopefully that's the case.
i'm really surprised brands running protos in a race environment don't have a statement ready for social media before making bikes visible on the race track. "this was a prototype, we're pushing the edge of technology and racing. our athletes are putting them through extreme paces and sometimes the rider out-performs the prototype. we all know the risks involved with such daring endeavors. we're making sure our athlete has all the care they need after this incident. we'll research the cause of the failure and make our next one better." maybe that's not a smart move legally or for maximum synergy, but why not, especially in this age of instant photo/video sharing and memes.
From what I've seen it's that ignoring something is REALLY effective... In 2024. When you think of how fast news moves, how fast peoples minds move, and how many other things will happen before the season starts. I don't even blame them. Acknowledging it is just inviting a hoard of comments on that post. Also given it's a prototype they don't have to justify what a customer is getting. I saw someone on instagram trying to make that point about 'they wont buy the frame' and the first reply was "You're not gonna be able to buy that frame anyway." lol, fairly accurate. So it somehow seems like a lose-lose if they acknowledge it and surprisingly a win-win if they ignore it. It also helps that BK, somehow, is totally ok? Obviously it's harder to ignore if he's in the hospital/missing round 1 or the entire season. Pivot is just gonna dodge and roll this and it's gonna work flawlessly. The sketchy thing is BK probably gonna be back on that same horse! I'd be pining for a Phoenix personally. I'll take 1 second back over paralyzed/dead
I totally get it that it's scary when a frame breaks like that or in Supercross/MX an engine locks up off a jump. But those are freak failures. I'd imagine the company (Bike/race team/engine builder), learns from those mistakes and the rider can feel confident that the next version would be better/safer. To say a rider will depart from an entire product seems a bit extreme to me personally. Sure if he did, everyone would undertstand, but hard to think that will happen.
Hopefully we hear from BK or Pivot, just like Neko talked about the 12 frames he cracked. Neko said on Moving The Needle pod that he broke that many frames on the other brands(Trek, YT, Intense) he rode for, they just never talked about it.
Yep. Its totally common. I do wish people could see the dumpster(s!) after a world cup weekend. One team will only run their bars for a single weekend and then its into the dumpster with them even if they are not broken.
No one riding for a major brand will be as open as Neko can be about breaking frames. Also notice that he ONLY talks about HIS frame and not about the hundreds of other products he's putting on there.
For any of you that race locally just think about the carnage on a race weekend that you see. And no one at your local races is going nearly as hard as these men and women are.
Absolutely. We are talking about a design that handled Hardline. But this close to WC season BK is put in a tough spot. They need to address that issue. If they find it as a gluing issue then they can take solace in knowing they just can't have the same frame out too long especially in weather I suppose. But still, I do like the ideas other people have said whether its curvature in the lug like Atherton does, or even a sort of locking mechanism where you inset the tube and twist it, so that if the glue fails it more so 'comes loose' as opposed to straight up pulling out.
The idea that they would run the same frame and same risk without a change to address it would be crazy to me. I'm sure BK doesn't mind. But obvi in Pivots best interest to basically never have that happen again with this particular design. Once is flukey, twice is a problem.
Interesting note about commencals, not long ago there was an interview with Monika Hrastnik (its in slovenian language so pointless to post link as nobody would understand any of it) from Dorval AM and she said that Benoit Coulanges would break literally ever part of the bike but has not managed to break a V5 yet.
It was the V4's I was referring to.
Here's a fun fact, the original Sram centreline rotors would only last 1-2 race runs before they were too thin to be safely used again. Which was a case of bad design, and teams would order 160 rotors for a season haha.
But yeah, shit brakes, brand don't get it right all the time, normally failures aren't as catastrophic as BK's but sometimes they are. I still remember Benoit (I think it was Benoit) front wheel disappearing in the rock garden at Snowshoe and he just poleaxes the ground.
Prototyping brings an element of risk, but I think overall it's necessary to push development further.
The Ed Masters report is live! Update... Didn't show the crash and no mention of it.
Well, in his defense, he played right up to the point people wanted to see and then cut straight to podium celebration lol. Decent troll by Ed Bull Media House but we'll never know if they just didn't want to show BK getting smashed up like that, by his request, or if thats a good ol fashion Corpo Request.
Now I'm more on Spomer's side and they need to make a damn statement but... Wow they're really playing the 'just look away' card. "Bold strategy Cotton lets see how it pays off for em..."
Jnaynay's vlog did show the crash but ended on the clip.
When they cut to the podium after bk crashed, Jake said that he had boken a fram after hitting a tree. This was followed by blenki mentioning that thats not something you should be saying live in front of the cameras.
Isn’t Nemo going to try carbon lugs now
It’s a Proto version !
there could have been a error in the gluing preparation cleaning process
end of story! Bike’s brake all the time!
the production version will be some of the best there is like all pivot bikes !
and yes prototyping is a part of racing development!
chill out
Chris just admitted on pinkbike that their treatment of the aluminum didn't work properly to avoid corrosion which caused the epoxy to not bond correctly. So yes. There was an error. Pivot's production bikes are good. But that gluing error could have fcuked BK up properly. No point in just dismissing it as innovation. That was a big fcuk up on Pivot's part, but props to them for admitting it and hopefully they clean up that process. They've already recalled the frames that would have been made the same way (sadly, presumably the fresh new bikes Ed and Jenna got)... And are going to test them to failure most likely.
Innovation is great. Ideally it shouldn't be at the cost of an athlete. Can't wait to see all the Pivot team members ride this year. Jakob and Dane are great.
Here is the statement copied from the other site:
After a preliminary investigation into the failure of the prototype frame, we have identified that there was no failure of the carbon tubes and the epoxy used to bond the frame was still intact on the carbon tube side. Unfortunately, virtually no adhesive remained bonded to the aluminum. We use a treatment on all the aluminum parts to protect from galvanic corrosion between the carbon and the aluminum. We believe there was a failure of this treatment to properly etch/adhere to the aluminum.
We have additional frames that were made in the same batch, which we will be putting through full destructive testing as well as getting all the frames from the team back that were produced at the same time. Once we have the opportunity to test these prototype frames, we will take the necessary steps to ensure that the frames are as safe as possible, and ready for the full impact of another World Cup season.
We never want to see a frame failure and certainly not a failure of this magnitude. We are incredibly thankful that Bernard was not seriously injured and are taking steps to make sure that this is not an issue in the future.— Chris Cocalis, President, Pivot Cycles
Pivot bikes? BIG TRASH, sorry to say. Look how the metal didn't even deform or anything. Entirely held together with glue, limited structural redundancy built in. That's garbage!
Also, risked BK's life with their nonsense..I would 100% leave if I were him. He's a rich British punk anyway, he'll be fine.
BK talks the proto frame:
Instagram
Any time a car is made from aluminium.
Carbon or aluminum bars?
Someone’s looking to go dumpster diving
Carbon bars.
To answer @LePigPe’s question. I think most teams are doing some kind of R&D through the season. It may not be full on frame design, but athletes are always messing with setup. They normally try to establish a baseline before the season starts. That way they can tinker between races but return to the baseline for race day. Most races are won by .1 of a second which is like what, a bikes length. You better believe that everyone is hunting for the magic.
Also you will notice that some teams will just use a single rider who is good at giving feedback to test new designs. Two years ago Finn was on the new diaper bike while Loic stayed on the old one.
Lastly some people just love for that shit. I don’t think Minnar can actually go to a race and sit still. He’s even admitted that tinkering helps keep his nerves down.
bernard's vid on youtube
It's genuine curiosity, I won't be near any WC races for the forseeable future anyway, so that one is out of the question
I was expecting carbon to be the answer as people aren't as jumpy around aluminium.
Loic didn't take the new proto because he didn't want to switch bikes and get used to a new one mid season, he preferred to do the switch off season. Lo and behold, he did get on the diaper bike for 2023 after using the old bike for 2022.
Speaking of protos and Specialized, carbon tubes and lug construction and tubes pulling out and so on, it looks like Specialized simply riveted the tubes to the lugs for additional protection to prevent what happened to Bernard. No need to do bayonet style mechanism that will greatly complicate both the parts themselves and the construction, you can easily just drill some holes and put rivets through them before the adhesive cures and have all the security you need.
I just watched that and the race,.After qualifying first Bernard seemed way off the pace in his race run.I wonder if the de-bonding had already started and he could feel something was off.
Looking at the specializeds I wondered if they had some additional mechanical fixing.
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