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6/26/2009
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Boise, ID
US
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66th
Edited Date/Time
4/11/2017 1:25pm
Do any of you ever wonder why there hasn't been a solution to flat tires, especially for the likes of World Cup DH and XC teams? While watching live feeds of PMB Cairns and seeing the Fort William BDS photos, I couldn't help but wonder how a flat tire could ruin an Elite pro's race run these days. The teams/companies spend so much money every year going from race to race, the riders train their asses off and risk their lives for a podium, yet a $2 tube or a burp in a tubeless can blow the entire race weekend. Titles and championships are lost because of flat tires. We have $10,000 bikes that can't keep air in the tires if they're hit just right.
Is it the lack of performance/handling/grip that a system could compromise? Is it cost? Materials?
I know there is/was Le System by Michelin that helped riders finish a run and Schwalbe has their new dual chambered system (Danny flatted at Ft Bill BDS and didn't have the dual chambered system...why?). Syndicate (and maybe others) messed with (and possibly still mess with) sew-ups.
I guess if I was sending a handful of athletes around the world (or was an athlete being sent around the world) and all that effort was blitzed by a flat tire, I'd want to gouge my eyes out.
Is it the lack of performance/handling/grip that a system could compromise? Is it cost? Materials?
I know there is/was Le System by Michelin that helped riders finish a run and Schwalbe has their new dual chambered system (Danny flatted at Ft Bill BDS and didn't have the dual chambered system...why?). Syndicate (and maybe others) messed with (and possibly still mess with) sew-ups.
I guess if I was sending a handful of athletes around the world (or was an athlete being sent around the world) and all that effort was blitzed by a flat tire, I'd want to gouge my eyes out.
But that's assuming current equipment. If you're asking why we haven't developed puncture-proof tires (Kevlar rubber? Titanium tread?) or why a system like Schwalbe's hasn't taken over for preventing pinch flats, I don't have the technical expertise to answer. I'm just saying that with what's available right now, teams make a deliberate choice to risk more flats because the alternative sucks.
re: teams pushing the balance and taking a chance on durability.
I totally hear you and know that existing technologies don't seem to give a lot of room. I just think about factory team X spending 6 or 7-digit figures on a World Cup season that is ruined by flat tires and cringe.
Could a custom/one-off solution for team X be created for 10% of their budget? I would think that'd be worth it. The T.H.E. system 10 or 12 years ago seemed like it prevented pinch flats well. It was just a major hassle for mounting tires. That hassle seems like an easy trade off so my World Cup rider could finish a race run.
I have to imagine the companies and teams have all investigated this. Just seems like after so many years and so many races (both XC and DH) ruined by flats, some creative engineer would have something sorted. Even if it was a labor intensive system that required a small handful of custom/one-off pieces.
I have gotten pinch flats using tubeless dual ply tires and about 35psi. Yes, holes in the sidewalls of the tires.
I think maybe to almost eliminate flats, tires have to be thicker, which means heavier. Who wants to ride heavier tires?
Since it hitchhikes on car tires, it is spreading more and more each year too. Learn to recognize it.
for the sake of reminiscing - T.H.E. eliminator rim (i can't find the video of the rider just smashing full speed into curbs)
Its very hard to get flats from using a tubeless set up. In the 12 years I have been running some sort of tubeless kit, I have gotten maybe 5-6 flats. If you are just trail riding its pretty hard to flat. If you are dh racing and really pushing it, flats are pretty easy to get.
Btw, $2 is the wholesale cost of your average-grade inner-tube. Essentially, if your LBS is charging more than $6 for a tube, they're fleecing you.
@sb66er - I agree being smooth helps to avoid flats. However, I doubt any of us on this forum are smoother than the people Spomer are talking about. . .
One thing I noticed when I would get flats with tubeless (when I used to race), is I think I would get a burp I didn't notice then would pinch the tire casing later on in the run, I think from low pressures resulting from the initial burp. Less common would be a sharp rock just destroying the tire straight up. Never couldn't finish a race run because a thorn.
When you set up for your race run, most everybody puts on a new tire and (if tubeless) new sealant. When I'm just out riding my trail bike, I'm pretty much on nearly dry sealant that has more or less glued the tire to the rim. I wonder if the sealant could maybe "dry up" a little faster if this would help avoid the burp and subsequent flats. . .
But, on my downhill bike I was using the same tires but in the 2.6 variety. Same air pressure basically and yet I flatted those a bunch of times. I ride my other bike just as hard (even took it to Bromont last year once).
I think a lot of it, as someone else mentioned, is the person who is riding and of course some good (or bad) luck. If you point your bike straight down the trail, with no regard for what is in front you, you're going to get a flat eventually.
Maybe this can relate to Formula 1 racing (and others). Budgets in the millions of dollars and yet they still manage to run out of gas on a constant basis. Its all about pushing everything to very limit and shit happens.
Back in the 3.0 tire days, I overheard a racer complaining to his buddy that he'd increased his tire pressure from twelve to eighteen whole pounds of pressure and was STILL getting flats. For me tire pressure is what really saves me from flats. For me, flirting with low pressure means only running thirty pounds, which is how much Peaty runs. I'm taller and I'd guess heavier than him, so I generally run thirty five in the rear. It may not make for the BEST traction, but I hate the squirmy feeling of low pressures anyway.
I tried tubeless on some stans flow wheels, and could not find a tire that would hold on. UST tires, 2ply dh tires, TCS, from all kinds of brands. After enough ruined rides, and one ruined race, I gave up and put the tubes back in.
My best flatless setup begins with my favorite rim, the Spank Subrosa. The center of the rim is raised and it results in fewer pinches, one time I dented the rim testing a rock landing, and rode away without a pinch flat.
The next crucial aspect of the setup is a DH casing tire, on the rear I've been running a clipped Conti Mud King for about a year now. It is difficult to find a tire narrow enough for xc climbs (2.3-2.4), but with a DH casing for durability. The mud king is great, so is the Larsen tt 2ply. I really wish Maxxis would use the DH casing on their 2.35 minions again, that would be the Balls.
In my experience, single ply tires fail in two ways; first they suffer pitch flats (even at 60psi), then they blow out the sidewall. Wearing a $70 tire's sidewall out before the tread is a waste, so I don't run folding tires on my mtn bike anymore.
The ending...
http://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/features/Rapid-Fire-Kyle-Strait-Scrubbin…
I'm guessing Kyle is running tubes or those bad boys would have exploded off the rim?
Also ran tubeless for DH for half a run at Whistler two years ago. I dented the rim so bad (yes in 1/2 a run) that the tire wouldn't seal anymore. Swapped back to tubes.
It seems that a soft metal rim, fresh DH tire, good medium weight tube and a bunch of talc powder is still the way to go for hard DH use.
http://www.vitalmtb.com/product/feature/Good-Riddance-Pinch-Flats-Intro…
If we could just figure out how to make it..
I was out on a ride a few weeks back and was marveling at the traction I was getting...turns out I was running 19 psi in the rear and 17 in the front...for a 270lb dude I was amazing I did not break something or, burp or rip my tires off....just crazy. I wont run that low again (on purpose) but the experience was pretty cool.
As for WC racers, I am with you spomer, I just don't get that in a high pressure sport with that much money on the line for sponsors that a better alternative has not been found..even if it is some crazy expensive one off just FRO setup. As others have said though look at the automotive industry and you can see that they are fighting the same fight, the solid and honeycomb designs I have seen look cool, but from what I hear they weigh a ton and handling is sacrificed.
I wonder if a spray foam (think spray insulation but softer more rubbery) would work...spray it in the schraeder nozzle and it fills up your tire...you could buy different durometers depending on your style and location...would be pretty cool. Many issues with that idea...but it would be cool.
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